Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Stateofyou

JDD wrote: »

I don't see why parents are petitioning for the school to close early when it is perfectly open to them to take their children out early if they want to. Perhaps they are petitioning on behalf of the teachers. Fair enough if so, but I do hope they surveyed all the parents, as there may well have been a few where both parents work outside the home and would have been put in a very awkward position. Those parents tend not be closely involved with Parents Associations and school Whats App groups.

The teachers' union would not have been villified if they had said that they wished for schools to close early before christmas, and the days would have been made up after christmas or at easter. If they had put that forward, it would have been perfectly acceptable. Awkward for some parents to get emergency childcare, but a reasonable suggestion overall.

However, they made the mistake of framing it as extra holidays for exhausted teachers. Teachers may well be exhausted - but the point of looking for the extra days before Christmas was for self isolation purposes, not recuperation days. And there's so many other sectors of society that are more exhausted then teachers, that got no holidays this year, and will not get the opportunity to down tools early. On that point the way the unions framed the suggestion - without the offer of making up the days - was doomed to failure.

I think they don't want it on their child's attendance records, and they would like the early close days to be compensated elsewhere so as to not be lost. And I think many do care about their children's teachers also being able to have proper and safer time with their families over Christmas, too.

As for the unions and teachers pushing things... look. I think the Government and DES should take responsibility and control here. Angela Merkel did. It wasn't her teachers/unions who fought for it.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/

Don't post links without an explanation as to it's purpose. I won't read otherwise. Stubborn that way (and mods seem to get stroppy over it too).

Stateofyou

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes if only things like internet existed.

Yeah, and if only an effort was made to keep up in the country of the post you're on nearly every day instead of just saying other people are incorrect about what the government has said in regards to an increase of cases after Christmas. If only... :rolleyes:

meeeeh

Stateofyou wrote: »

As for the unions and teachers pushing things... look. I think the Government and DES should take responsibility and control here. Angela Merkel did. It wasn't her teachers/unions who fought for it.

Look up 14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases per 100 000 in Germany and Ireland tell me about responsibility and control.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

"ICU personnel have been stretched thin for years. We have far too few qualified nurses,"

Again another relative term without comparison is pretty meaningless.

This is the situation in Ireland.

The Irish Hospital Consultants Association has said that one million people are on a waiting list to be seen at an acute hospital.

Speaking at the organisation's annual conference today, its president, Dr Donal O’Hanlon, said almost 570,000 people were waiting to be seen by a consultant

Are 16 million people in Germany waiting over a year to be seen at an acute hospital?

Stateofyou

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh bravo. The usual bs response.

Schools are part of society, things are planned around school and when people need time off. You just can't see it because you don't work and it doesn't affect you.

meeeeh wrote: »

That's just more nonsense. We do plan and we agree in advance how we do things. Just because you disagree with the plan it doesn't mean there isn't one. It's just not the one you'd like.

You're talking nonsense now. You are the one who said things should be planned. So I said, yeah, so they should make a plan for the circumstances everyone saw a mile off, right?
So my reply was in response to you saying time off has to be planned around school. Whether I like or agree with the plan is irrelevant.

SusanC10

SusanC10 wrote: »

Why aren't they allowed to wear coats ?
We got an email from our Secondary School saying that the kids should wear layers plus coats if necessary.

I don't know. It's school policy apparently. And this is a large community school.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Again another relative term without comparison is pretty meaningless.

This is the situation in Ireland.



Are 16 million people in Germany waiting over a year to be seen at an acute hospital?

The current crisis in ICU in Germany is related to hospital appointment waiting lists in Ireland how?

The contention was Germany could afford to live with the current situation due to their vastly superior ICU bed quantity. When pointed out they are already at breaking point (with nurses not beds being the primary issue), its suddenly about waiting lists?

The German healthcare system is excellent, but they are reached breaking point. Hopefully they will pull back from the brink just like we have for now

meeeeh

Deleted User wrote: »

The current crisis in ICU in Germany is related to hospital appointment waiting lists in Ireland how?

The contention was Germany could afford to live with the current situation due to their vastly superior ICU bed quantity. When pointed out they are already at breaking point (with nurses not beds being the primary issue), its suddenly about waiting lists?

The German healthcare system is excellent, but they are reached breaking point. Hopefully they will pull back from the brink just like we have for now

Exactly and the best example is Lombardy last spring. Even good or excellent health systems can get overwhelmed.

blanch152

Stateofyou wrote: »

I think they don't want it on their child's attendance records, and they would like the early close days to be compensated elsewhere so as to not be lost. And I think many do care about their children's teachers also being able to have proper and safer time with their families over Christmas, too.

As for the unions and teachers pushing things... look. I think the Government and DES should take responsibility and control here. Angela Merkel did. It wasn't her teachers/unions who fought for it.

Teachers get two weeks holidays already over Christmas to have proper and safer time with their families.

Creche workers, who have closer contact with kids, don't.
Nurses, who have closer contact with those at risk, don't.
Doctors, Physios, Healthcare assistants don't.
Neither do gardai, firemen, meat-factory workers, retail workers etc. all of whom are at far higher risk of Covid than teachers.

JDD

Stateofyou wrote: »

I think they don't want it on their child's attendance records, and they would like the early close days to be compensated elsewhere so as to not be lost. And I think many do care about their children's teachers also being able to have proper and safer time with their families over Christmas, too.

As for the unions and teachers pushing things... look. I think the Government and DES should take responsibility and control here. Angela Merkel did. It wasn't her teachers/unions who fought for it.

I don't really know how school outbreaks are being managed in Germany, so can't comment on that.

As for "I want the school to close because I don't want my child's attendance record to be affected, and I don't really care about other parents that may need the school to be open to the end of term" well, that's incredibly selfish IMO. Child attendance records are a parental ego thing. "My child has never missed a day of school, aren't I the best parent". *rolls eyes*. If they are truly concerned about their child spreading the virus on Christmas Day, the attendance record shouldn't even come into it.

As I said, if they are doing it for the teachers, and they have surveyed all parents and there are no dissents, then it is completely open to all of them to take the children out of school on the Friday. The teachers can come in to empty classrooms on Monday and Tuesday, and will get their extra isolation days.

Stateofyou

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers get two weeks holidays already over Christmas to have proper and safer time with their families.

Creche workers, who have closer contact with kids, don't.
Nurses, who have closer contact with those at risk, don't.
Doctors, Physios, Healthcare assistants don't.
Neither do gardai, firemen, meat-factory workers, retail workers etc. all of whom are at far higher risk of Covid than teachers.

That is inaccurate. Not all of them are rostered every day, and in the lead up to Christmas Day. However, all teachers must work all the days school is open. Teacher's may have two weeks off, but it's only the one day, Christmas Day, which matters most here. Very disingenuous post, Blanch.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't know. It's school policy apparently. And this is a large community school.

Silly, silly attitude to have under the current circumstances.
Probably is policy in a normal year but this isn't.

Only things ours aren't allowed wear in class are gloves. We advise thermal or under armour type tops under the uniform and that should be enough along with a body warmer.

JimmyVik

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers get two weeks holidays already over Christmas to have proper and safer time with their families.

Creche workers, who have closer contact with kids, don't.
Nurses, who have closer contact with those at risk, don't.
Doctors, Physios, Healthcare assistants don't.
Neither do gardai, firemen, meat-factory workers, retail workers etc. all of whom are at far higher risk of Covid than teachers.

Its not about the teachers getting holidays.
Why cant people get past that.
It has been explained on this thread by numerous people that its a chance to limit close circulation early for long term gains.
Move the holidays to before Christmas. Just move them, not add to them.



You could keep some of the teachers in work during the holidays to mind the kids of healthcare workers or people who cannot cope, if the holidays are brought forward. Maybe that might let people see past the "teachers are getting time off" blinkers.

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Silly, silly attitude to have under the current circumstances.
Probably is policy in a normal year but this isn't.

Only things ours aren't allowed wear in class are gloves. We advise thermal or under armour type tops under the uniform and that should be enough along with a body warmer.

I would say gloves are the key thing - it's hard to write when your hands are blue with cold. It's easy to wear thermals etc under your uniform.

Stateofyou

JDD wrote: »

I don't really know how school outbreaks are being managed in Germany, so can't comment on that.

As for "I want the school to close because I don't want my child's attendance record to be affected, and I don't really care about other parents that may need the school to be open to the end of term" well, that's incredibly selfish IMO. Child attendance records are a parental ego thing. "My child has never missed a day of school, aren't I the best parent". *rolls eyes*. If they are truly concerned about their child spreading the virus on Christmas Day, the attendance record shouldn't even come into it.

As I said, if they are doing it for the teachers, and they have surveyed all parents and there are no dissents, then it is completely open to all of them to take the children out of school on the Friday. The teachers can come in to empty classrooms on Monday and Tuesday, and will get their extra isolation days.

Hmm... I don't know if it's an ego thing. There are only so many days a year that can be missed before TUSLA is flagged. And with many being out and also repeatedly, missing days/weeks due to covid closures and quarantines and illnesses, those days it will add up. I personally couldn't care any less about Tusla this year (or any other year tbh) but many people live with the fear for some reason!
The survey is going around email, social media, and I've seen it on the Alerting Parents fb group page which has parents, teachers and principles it its membership. I think people were just looking for a sensible plan so they could let work know (if applicable) schools were closing and time to make any necessary plans. I can't speak for everyone, but this is what I see from all the commentary.

JDD

Stateofyou wrote: »

That is inaccurate. Not all of them are rostered every day, and in the lead up to Christmas Day. However, all teachers must work all the days school is open. Teacher's may have two weeks off, but it's only the one day, Christmas Day, which matters most here. Very disingenuous post, Blanch.

They're shift workers, so are likely to be rostered for 40 hours in the run up to Christmas Day. Probably more hours being exposed to other people than teachers.

I agree the holidays after Christmas are neither here nor there for the purposes of this conversation.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I would say gloves are the key thing - it's hard to write when your hands are blue with cold. It's easy to wear thermals etc under your uniform.

Its also hard to write with gloves.

What has the general experience with classrooms and the cold been. Our school is new, with a good heating system and south facing windows, so have not heard any complaints about cold classrooms, however older schools may be different

the kelt

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers get two weeks holidays already over Christmas to have proper and safer time with their families.

Creche workers, who have closer contact with kids, don't.
Nurses, who have closer contact with those at risk, don't.
Doctors, Physios, Healthcare assistants don't.
Neither do gardai, firemen, meat-factory workers, retail workers etc. all of whom are at far higher risk of Covid than teachers.

Its funny when you see the thanks from people to this post who then spend ages trying to prove its not about teachers getting holidays

SusanC10

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its also hard to write with gloves.

What has the general experience with classrooms and the cold been. Our school is new, with a good heating system and south facing windows, so have not heard any complaints about cold classrooms, however older schools may be different

One child is in a new ish building (5 years old) and the other in an old building. The child in the old building comes out freezing every day particularly his hands. Has a hot shower straight away once home which wouldn't have been the norm but makes for quicker getting ready in the mornings!

JimmyVik

Deleted User wrote: »

Its also hard to write with gloves.

What has the general experience with classrooms and the cold been. Our school is new, with a good heating system and south facing windows, so have not heard any complaints about cold classrooms, however older schools may be different

Im working from home. Heat on all day. If I go outside im freezing my nads off.
Child comes home and complains its too hot, can we open the windows.
Definitely hardier than me

Last Sunday at -2 (windchill -7) we went for a walk and off comes the coat. Too hot. I couldnt feel my legs.

Blondini

blanch152 wrote: »

Neither do gardai, firemen, meat-factory workers, retail workers etc. all of whom are at far higher risk of Covid than teachers.

None of those professions are at a much higher risk than teachers by a long stretch.

Don't invent facts to back up your ramblings.

Stateofyou

JDD wrote: »

They're shift workers, so are likely to be rostered for 40 hours in the run up to Christmas Day. Probably more hours being exposed to other people than teachers.

I agree the holidays after Christmas are neither here nor there for the purposes of this conversation.

But, what's the underlying message there though- if it can't be the same for everyone it shouldn't change for anyone?

What's unique about this specific idea about closing the schools a bit earlier, is to help mitigate the projected s-t show that's about to happen after the holiday season. Because in the education sector unlike any other (take primary schools for example) you have unmasked students of often 30+ sitting in crowded classrooms frequently lacking ventilation and also lack of social distancing. Now they're about to break and many will go visiting. (Or won't be able to visit such as teachers who could not have the proper time away from the classroom environment first). It's to help reduce the spread to other households. It's about the knock on effect to all our safety and indeed livelihoods if restrictions of level 5 hit again.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Its also hard to write with gloves.

What has the general experience with classrooms and the cold been. Our school is new, with a good heating system and south facing windows, so have not heard any complaints about cold classrooms, however older schools may be different

School looks to have been built in the 60s or 70s. She is freezing every day, particularly her hands.

There are plenty of options for gloves and writing, thin ones or even fingerless.

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

But, what's the underlying message there though- if it can't be the same for everyone it shouldn't change for anyone?

No, it's that if you change for some it's just going to mean that others have to sacrifice. Also, if they're in school there's a control factor. They're mixing with the same people that they've been mixing with for the last 2 months. If they're not in school, they could be off to the supermarket, already travelling to see grandparents and cousins, playing with children in the street who are not in the same school. People will have a false sense of safety in taking bigger risks to visit loved ones.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would say gloves are the key thing - it's hard to write when your hands are blue with cold. It's easy to wear thermals etc under your uniform.

We found they couldn't write properly when wearing gloves. Especially in the younger classes where such work is done on pencil grip.

wirelessdude01

You'd have to wonder if people in Britain and Germany are having the same ramblings with regards to their closing schools actually closing a little earlier on their version of boards?

JDD

Stateofyou wrote: »

But, what's the underlying message there though- if it can't be the same for everyone it shouldn't change for anyone?

What's unique about this specific idea about closing the schools a bit earlier, is to help mitigate the projected s-t show that's about to happen after the holiday season. Because in the education sector unlike any other (take primary schools for example) you have unmasked students of often 30+ sitting in crowded classrooms frequently lacking ventilation and also lack of social distancing. Now they're about to break and many will go visiting. (Or won't be able to visit such as teachers who could not have the proper time away from the classroom environment first). It's to help reduce the spread to other households. It's about the knock on effect to all our safety and indeed livelihoods if restrictions of level 5 hit again.

Oh look, I agree. I think it would have been sensible to close the schools 10 days before Christmas, for society as a whole. Of course it would place some parents in a difficult position work wise, but as a benefit to society as a whole it made perfect sense.

It should have been a decision made by the DOE in September, long before the unions raised it.

However, DOE didn't make that decision, and the unions only raised it at Hallowe'en, making it even more difficult for those parents affected to change their agreed shift patterns.

And the unions made the fatal mistake of not framing it as you have - as a benefit for society as a whole. Or at least they did, but then went on to say that the days wouldn't be made up because teachers deserved the extra days to recuperate after the stress suffered from September to Christmas.

Like it not, there is a incorrect perception in the public that teachers get too many holidays. Many people don't understand how exhausting it can be to teach, and how those holidays are desperately needed to avoid burnout. In these particular circumstances, where we are very aware that there are nurses and dentists and care home workers that will not get extra holidays, it was very unfortunate that the unions framed the request in the way that they did. It would of course have been of benefit to society as a whole if schools closed earlier, but teachers should have been a bit more aware of what misconceptions there are out there, and in this instance offered to make up the days missed.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if people in Britain and Germany are having the same ramblings with regards to their closing schools actually closing a little earlier on their version of boards?

As far as I understand schools on Germany are staying closed at least till 9th of January (I think) if the suggested restrictions go through (they include also closure of all non food shops). German infection rate is at the moment more than 4 times as high as Irish. This is not about schools closing a little bit earlier for holidays in Germany. However none of this is actually confirmed and regional governments have to give go ahead as far as I know.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/09/coronavirus-merkel-calls-for-new-restrictions-across-germany-for-festive-season

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

No, it's that if you change for some it's just going to mean that others have to sacrifice. Also, if they're in school there's a control factor. They're mixing with the same people that they've been mixing with for the last 2 months. If they're not in school, they could be off to the supermarket, already travelling to see grandparents and cousins, playing with children in the street who are not in the same school. People will have a false sense of safety in taking bigger risks to visit loved ones.

I don't see the correlation. Especially when we all need to pull together and sacrifice for the greater good in the long run to prevent worse fallout.

Well I can say hypothetically my kids would be in the house glued to the PS4, watching a film, gorging on snacks and hanging out all day in their pyjamas. :pac: We certainly wouldn't be suddenly throwing caution to the wind and mixing with everyone. I don't see how schools getting out early on the premise that families need time to isolate a bit in order to go visiting leads to taking bigger risks. Quite the opposite in my view.

thomasdylan

Blondini wrote: »

None of those professions are at a much higher risk than teachers by a long stretch.

Don't invent facts to back up your ramblings.

Meat factory workers definitely are. The rest wouldn't be.

Actually firemen would be as well as a lot also work as paramedics.

SusanC10

Stateofyou wrote: »

I don't see the correlation. Especially when we all need to pull together and sacrifice for the greater good in the long run to prevent worse fallout.

Well I can say hypothetically my kids would be in the house glued to the PS4, watching a film, gorging on snacks and hanging out all day in their pyjamas. :pac: We certainly wouldn't be suddenly throwing caution to the wind and mixing with everyone. I don't see how schools getting out early on the premise that families need time to isolate a bit in order to go visiting leads to taking bigger risks. Quite the opposite in my view.

Same. I will need to drag them out for a walk on the 21st -23rd.

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if people in Britain and Germany are having the same ramblings with regards to their closing schools actually closing a little earlier on their version of boards?

The 100's of people dying everyday may shift the discussion just a little

pwurple

Stateofyou wrote: »

I don't see the correlation. Especially when we all need to pull together and sacrifice for the greater good in the long run to prevent worse fallout.

Well I can say hypothetically my kids would be in the house glued to the PS4, watching a film, gorging on snacks and hanging out all day in their pyjamas. :pac: We certainly wouldn't be suddenly throwing caution to the wind and mixing with everyone. I don't see how schools getting out early on the premise that families need time to isolate a bit in order to go visiting leads to taking bigger risks. Quite the opposite in my view.

Exactly. It's fine for those of you with PS4's and the ability to keep your kids at home full time.

For the nurses, meat packers, travellers, the working classes in general, they don't have that luxury.


We're not one homogenous block of identical people. Different circumstances for all, and by taking children out of school, you are creating hardship, risk and basically penalizing people for being poorer than you.

On a related note but tangential note to this mornings discussions, my employer has this morning offered PCR tests to employees prior to Christmas with results guaranteed within two days.

HerrKuehn

Blondini wrote: »

None of those professions are at a much higher risk than teachers by a long stretch.

Don't invent facts to back up your ramblings.

The health care workers mentioned above are at much higher risk than teachers. In the hospital where my wife works, one of the wards has 17 nurses and doctors out WITH covid, not just isolating.

average_runner

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Silly, silly attitude to have under the current circumstances.
Probably is policy in a normal year but this isn't.

Only things ours aren't allowed wear in class are gloves. We advise thermal or under armour type tops under the uniform and that should be enough along with a body warmer.

IS this secondary school or something. Cause they aren't doing this at the primary school our kids go to. 6 cases out of 600 kids, all coming from their home.


Doors are not open, two windows but that's it

lulublue22

HerrKuehn wrote: »

The health care workers mentioned above are at much higher risk than teachers. In the hospital where my wife works, one of the wards has 17 nurses and doctors out WITH covid, not just isolating.

Is that not a given no ? Who would class teachers as higher risk than health care workers?

HerrKuehn

lulublue22 wrote: »

Is that not a given no ? Who would class teachers as higher risk than health care workers?

Well I think it is obviously the case, yes. The other professions listed may be lower or higher. I think that this year at Christmas there will be a lot of difficult decisions. Those who work in situations where they are in contact with people and at an above average risk of catching covid will need to think carefully about the level of risk they are willing to take. Parents who wish to take their kids out early can do so. Teachers are in a similar situation to anyone else who has to work that week. In some cases people may decide to wait 10 days before visiting relatives and that is entirely up to them.

SusanC10

Has anyone's Schools banned gifts for Teachers or Christmas Cards etc coming in from home ?

khalessi

SusanC10 wrote: »

Has anyone's Schools banned gifts for Teachers or Christmas Cards etc coming in from home ?

Noting has been said about it. My kids school are collecting via papal for a voucher for the class teacher.

SusanC10

khalessi wrote: »

Noting has been said about it. My kids school are collecting via papal for a voucher for the class teacher.

That's a good idea.

wirelessdude01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

On a related note but tangential note to this mornings discussions, my employer has this morning offered PCR tests to employees prior to Christmas with results guaranteed within two days.

Fair play. Nice gesture.

wirelessdude01

average_runner wrote: »

IS this secondary school or something. Cause they aren't doing this at the primary school our kids go to. 6 cases out of 600 kids, all coming from their home.


Doors are not open, two windows but that's it

Primary but doesn't make any difference. Any principal creating issues over uniform this year needs a good root up the behind.

wirelessdude01

SusanC10 wrote: »

Has anyone's Schools banned gifts for Teachers or Christmas Cards etc coming in from home ?

Yep. Some parents are up in arms over it.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

The German healthcare system is excellent, but they are reached breaking point. Hopefully they will pull back from the brink just like we have for now

No they haven't. Even in the hospital cited in the article, there is fully operational plan to move patients to other hospitals.

Germany has about 28,000 operational ICU beds, according to the German Association of Intensive and Emergency Medicine (DIVI). An additional 20% could be available, but cannot be used due to lack of staff.

The hilarity is they see that as a problem.

That would equate to 1800 ICU beds Ireland.

Funding has enabled the HSE to put in place 55 permanent and fully-staffed beds during the pandemic, increasing capacity by 25% since before March and bringing the current number to 280

They are premier league, we are a pub team in terms of health care.

meeeeh

SusanC10 wrote: »

Has anyone's Schools banned gifts for Teachers or Christmas Cards etc coming in from home ?

Yes. I'm have no issues giving presents although I suspect teachers are sick of the tat they get. I'm not going against the school request.

Group collection is probably handiest but I'm a bit uncomfortable with an assumption some have that everyone has money.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

No they haven't. Even in the hospital cited in the article, there is fully operational plan to move patients to other hospitals.



The hilarity is they see that as a problem.

That would equate to 1800 ICU beds Ireland.



They are premier league, we are a pub team in terms of health care.

"limiting factor is not the lack of ICU beds, but appropriately qualified staff."

.

meeeeh

Boggles wrote: »

They are premier league, we are a pub team in terms of health care.

They might be but their hospitals are still filling up. Even if they close next week or so that would only mean effect on numbers in two or three weeks.

wirelessdude01

Boggles wrote: »

No they haven't. Even in the hospital cited in the article, there is fully operational plan to move patients to other hospitals.



The hilarity is they see that as a problem.

That would equate to 1800 ICU beds Ireland.



They are premier league, we are a pub team in terms of health care.

Weren't they/aren't they taking patients from Holland?