Schools closed until February? (part 3)

HerrKuehn

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Sorry Blondini.

I popped in here for a look after months away and lo and behold.

The same argument and narrative been re hashed over and over.

All while the schools are approaching 3.5 months open.

Thank god the vast majority are getting on with life.

The repetitive nature of the thread is due to it being populated mainly by chat bots. The simpler ones just post links to articles without comment, probably a second year course project or something.

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

Thank you, for your interpretation of my statement which refered to teachers and the circulars but sure you are welcome not to post any more based on the above.

Are you saying that the same doesn't apply for health experts?

Boggles

HerrKuehn wrote: »

NPHET have not made any recommendations about schools that the government have gone against that I am aware of. The recent discussion is about whether schools should shut early, look at what Germany is doing etc. Our own experts have not made a recommendation about closing early.

NPHET get their remit from governance.

Schools and non covid health care are the 2 core services.

It's why the likes of book shops were closed for 6 weeks.

If book shops were a core service, schools would be closed.

lulublue22

meeeeh wrote: »

Since we all agree that we should listen to experts this debate is nonessential. The health experts think school year should be as planned so lets listen to them.

Debate is the exchange of opinions no ? Not stating blatant untruths as fact. I have no problem with finishing on the 22nd of Dec. I do have a problem with being told that if schools wanted to close they should have organised their calendar to do based on the stated fact that they have full autonomy to do so due to the circular. When the misconception was pointed out we had a doubling down and a cheap pot shot taken re spending less time interpreting .
Par for the course on this thread - people make mistakes no big deal acknowledge and move on agh but no double down and throw out a few cheap shots principals don't even read it ..... School staff have ( as have others) worked damn hard to ensure the safety of the school community. A little recognition of that wouldn't go astray.

Lillyfae

Apologies for referring to a different kind of autonomy than the type of autonomy that you were thinking about.

HerrKuehn

lulublue22 wrote: »

Debate is the exchange of opinions no ?

A lot of the "debate" on this thread involves accusing the HSE/NPHET of being involved in some sort of conspiracy/cover up with the government.

meeeeh

lulublue22 wrote: »

Debate is the exchange of opinions no ? Not stating blatant untruths as fact. I have no problem with finishing on the 22nd of Dec. I do have a problem with being told that if schools wanted to close they should have organised their calendar to do based on the stated fact that they have full autonomy to do so due to the circular. When the misconception was pointed out we had a doubling down and a cheap pot shot taken re spending less time interpreting .
Par for the course on this thread - people make mistakes no big deal acknowledge and move on agh but no double down and throw out a few cheap shots principals don't even read it ..... School staff have ( as have others) worked damn hard to ensure the safety of the school community. A little recognition of that wouldn't go astray.

Which is fine, however the claims were made that it's for the medical reasons we should close the schools two days and every one who disagrees with it either hates teachers or wants mass deaths in January. Medical experts never suggested schools should close early, so if we expect experts in one profession to be listened to why shouldn't we listen to people in different profession.

Personally I think anyone can be challenged because that's how society progresses. It's fair to think challenge is stupid or ideas unworkable and not all opinions have equal weight but expressing them it's fine.

As for recognition of work done I pointed out I'm very happy how school my kids go to dealt with the situation. I think it's a great school with good staff (some better than others but all good). However when the same school put out circular before Halloween to ignore whinging of unions and in the media and that they are all very happy to be back I was accused of writing the circular myself and lying... I'm sorry but I think some here are so used to be authority in the classroom that they forget how it is to be challenged. Not every different opinion is teacher hating. Even the mistaken ones.

History Queen

Lillyfae wrote: »

But this is exactly what I'm referring to

They don't have the autonomy to do what you suggested.

Lillyfae

History Queen wrote: »

They don't have the autonomy to do what you suggested.

I suggested that they take 2 holidays from somewhere in the rest of the year. I'm sorry it wasn't the same method as you are referring to. You have confirmed that they can do this:

History Queen wrote: »

The act of reading a text involves comprehending and interpretation. I'm saying you are wrong. I don't know why you are choosing this rock to perish on. The school calandar is standardised and published every three years with a little wiggle room around croke park hours/starting a day or two early to 'bank' those days for later in the year (i think primary have a bit more flexibility around summer term midterms but I'm not sure).

History Queen wrote: »

The circular you are referring to, specifically around school closures does not apply to covid as proven by the school in Kerry.

I don't know why you can't won't accept this.

The school in Tarbert had 7 positive cases. 45 people were identified as close contacts and were sent home out of 520 students (not clear how many teachers). That was the 19th of October. The school got mid term on the 23rd of October. Link:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/school-ordered-to-reopen-after-closing-due-to-covid-19-fears-1.4386387

History Queen

Lillyfae wrote: »

I suggested that they take 2 holidays from somewhere in the rest of the year. I'm sorry it wasn't the same method as you are referring to. You have confirmed that they can do this:





The school in Tarbert had 7 positive cases. 45 people were identified as close contacts and were sent home out of 520 students (not clear how many teachers). That was the 19th of October. The school got mid term on the 23rd of October. Link:

Lillyfae, what you are asking cannot be done in the manner you are looking for. I have repeated this ad nauseam. The school in Tarbert were repremanded for the principal taking action autonomously. The school was ordered to reopen by the Department of Education because of this. It's in the link you posted.

I'm not going to continue as clearly you are not interested in discussing the issue, just in bullishly proclaiming yourself to be right even though you are not.

Lillyfae

History Queen wrote: »

Lillyfae, what you are asking cannot be done in the manner you are looking for. I have repeated this ad nauseam.

But it can be done in the way that you have outlined

History Queen wrote: »

The school in Tarbert were repremanded for the principal taking action autonomously. The school was ordered to reopen by the Department of Education because of this. It's in the link you posted.

I'm not going to continue as clearly you are not interested in discussing the issu just in bullishly proclaiming yourself to be right even though you are not.

I know they were told to reopen, but that wasn't unreasonable in light of the actual situation. They were assessing the risk themselves, without any expertise to do so.

khalessi

Lily the fact is you are wrong. It is not like flexitime to be taken when schools like.

The "wiggle room Croke Park Days" so described have to be put into the school calendar before the beginning of the year. We can't just decide next month to close the school because we have a day and feel like it.

Parents have to know if we are coming back early in August in order for those days to be used later in the year. These days are normally tacked on to the May or June Bank Holidays or Feb midterm and are part of the school calendar issued to parents before return to school.

I would have thought that someone with family who are teachers and a member of the BOM would have checked, though it is probably different in Holland.

The fact is you are incorrect in your interpretation of the circular.

History Queen

khalessi wrote: »

Lily the fact is you are wrong. It is not like flexitime to be taken when schools like.

The "wiggle room Croke Park Days" so described have to be put into the school calendar before the beginning of the year. We can't just decide next month to close the school because we have a day and fell like it.

Parents have to know if we are coming back early in August in order for those days to be used later in the year. These days are normally tacked on to the May or June Bank Holidays or Feb midterm and are part of the school calendar issued to parents before return to school.

I would have thought that someone with family who are teachers and a member of the BOM would have checked, though it is probably different in Holland.

The fact is you are incorrect in your interpretation of the circular.

You've explained that better than I did.

Lillyfae

History Queen wrote: »

You've explained that better than I did.

Sorry, that's exactly what I was suggesting. The days should have been put in the planning at the start of the year, not a month before they are supposed to happen. That's what I've been saying since the very beginning.

lulublue22

meeeeh wrote: »

Which is fine, however the claims were made that it's for the medical reasons we should close the schools two days and every one who disagrees with it either hates teachers or wants mass deaths in January. Medical experts never suggested schools should close early, so if we expect experts in one profession to be listened to why shouldn't we listen to people in different profession.

Personally I think anyone can be challenged because that's how society progresses. It's fair to think challenge is stupid or ideas unworkable and not all opinions have equal weight but expressing them it's fine.

As for recognition of work done I pointed out I'm very happy how school my kids go to dealt with the situation. I think it's a great school with good staff (some better than others but all good). However when the same school put out circular before Halloween to ignore whinging of unions and in the media and that they are all very happy to be back I was accused of writing the circular myself and lying... I'm sorry but I think some here are so used to be authority in the classroom that they forget how it is to be challenged. Not every different opinion is teacher hating. Even the mistaken ones.

I agree that everyone can be challenged and everyone is entitled to their opinion. However must people who are called on blatant untruths have the good grace to acknowledge they misunderstood and move on.

I totally disagree that anyone who disagrees with closing the schools a day earlier is perceived as hating teachers - But there is a very clear anti teacher bias on this thread. Not everyone and not everyone who disagrees with early closing. But when this idea was floated first there was a slew of posts about teachers holidays and why should they get an extra day off. We’ve had a comment that I have nothing against teachers but I don’t rate them as a profession - what all 60,000 of them ??! hello ! We have comments that if teachers spent less time interpreting a circular it would be better for all , principals are spineless and don’t bother to read or understand or implement circulars apparently ! Or my favourite teachers won’t melt so we can walk anywhere up to 1000 pupils depending on the school around in the rain and call it education
There are a number of posts which respond to questions , statements etc with a thinly veiled comment on teachers. I personally don’t see that as challenging opinions but bringing everything back to teachers - you’ve done it yourself - some don’t like their authority questioned they are so used to their authority in class. I can’t speak for any other teacher but every decision I make in class I need to be able to stand over - to my principal , my BOM , the Inspectorate and the parents.

Do I think NEPHT is involved in a cover up / conspiracy no.

Do I think they have an agenda - yes

Do I disagree with their agenda - not necessarily.

Would I like clarity around PH decisions in relation to schools given the apparently ad hoc implementation on the ground - yes

Do I have questions around how / why cases spread and the PH teams response in the case if the schools in Cork , Laois and Claremorris - yes

Do I think covid should be a notifiable disease in the school context. Well if head lice and scabies are I don’t understand why covid isn’t.

Do I think that I have a right to raise concerns / have questions about decisions which affect my working conditions during a global pandemic - yes as does every other sector.

Just to clarify - I’m currently having my break in my car - in case some one questions why I’m on boards.

meeeeh

lulublue22 wrote: »

I personally don’t see that as challenging opinions but bringing everything back to teachers - you’ve done it yourself - some don’t like their authority questioned they are so used to their authority in class. I can’t speak for any other teacher but every decision I make in class I need to be able to stand over - to my principal , my BOM , the Inspectorate and the parents.

Actually I said some teachers here. Unless those here represent all teachers then I didn't bring back everything to teachers in general. It is generalisation that I will not accept.

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, that's exactly what I was suggesting. The days should have been put in the planning at the start of the year, not a month before they are supposed to happen. That's what I've been saying since the very beginning.

It is ok that you misinterpreted the circular.

vid36

The Claremorris school story is now online.I don't know who recommended that the school stay open in light of 12 positive tests but they should consider their position
The expert view that school closures should be based on community level of infections is also relevant .Note in the Claremorris electoral area, cases rates are running three times the national average.

Mayo school to close for Christmas amid Covid concerns
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1211/1183847-mayo-school-to-close-for-christmas-amid-covid-concerns/

seamus

12 cases seems like a lot, but then you read the story and realise that it's twelve cases since mid-term.

How many actual cases are active right now, and how many are believed to have been acquired in the school? 12 cases in one week or even two weeks would be cause for concern. 12 cases over 6 weeks?

I appreciate that the principal probably feels like they're doing the right thing by giving families the chance to isolate before Xmas, but arguably having the kids off school and out mixing with family & friends for the week, in a place where infections are high, could make matters worse.

vid36

Noone can prove exactly where an infection occurs, unless you do South Korean style phone monitoring South Korea shuts a school for two weeks if there is an active case.
Mixing outside school is a strawman argument.You are not going to get 30 children in an indoor environment together for six hours.Outdoor activities carry much lower risk.
Countries which closed schools during their second lockdowns, Belgium, Austria and Czech Republic and Slovakia have been very effective at curbing high levels of cases.The UK and Germany have not fared as well.

History Queen

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, that's exactly what I was suggesting. The days should have been put in the planning at the start of the year, not a month before they are supposed to happen. That's what I've been saying since the very beginning.

Last time. School calendars are set and published usually (at least in the case of the schools I've worked in) between March and April of the previous school year. No principal could've predicted whathappened this yearand planned the calendar accordingly. To suggest so is rubbish.

lulublue22

seamus wrote: »

12 cases seems like a lot, but then you read the story and realise that it's twelve cases since mid-term.

How many actual cases are active right now, and how many are believed to have been acquired in the school? 12 cases in one week or even two weeks would be cause for concern. 12 cases over 6 weeks?

I appreciate that the principal probably feels like they're doing the right thing by giving families the chance to isolate before Xmas, but arguably having the kids off school and out mixing with family & friends for the week, in a place where infections are high, could make matters worse.

Another source citing 9 active cases . Can’t remember where I read it possibly on the school website - cited as 7.2 % infection rate.

History Queen

lulublue22 wrote: »

Another source citing 9 active cases . Can’t remember where I read it possibly on the school website - cited as 7.2 % infection rate.

On the face of it, it seems closing the school is the correct course of action.does anyone know what consequences the principal/school may face for going against DES?

lulublue22

History Queen wrote: »

On the face of it, it seems closing the school is the correct course of action.does anyone know what consequences the principal/school may face for going against DES?

No idea but very interesting to see how DES will react. Also I’m interested to hear the INTO response.

Lillyfae

History Queen wrote: »

Last time. School calendars are set and published usually (at least in the case of the schools I've worked in) between March and April of the previous school year. No principal could've predicted whathappened this yearand planned the calendar accordingly. To suggest so is rubbish.

To suggest that extra days off should be added to the already published school calendar is equally rubbish then, especially when there is a high chance of days off due to Covid throughout the year ad hoc.

I do appreciate your honesty for the bits in bold, but I would wonder if you've worked in enough schools to create a big enough sample. I would also remind you that we did actually know in March and April that this year would be disrupted by Covid (you were already working from home), and the likely incubation period. My point is that principals could have chosen for the Christmas break to be 2 days earlier, and then to go back 2 days earlier, well in advance. There is the flexibility for that. For whatever reason they didn't. I'm sure they had enough to deal with, so it's understandable if they didn't think of it, but they could have.

The situation is bad and management strategy has to be continually updated to deal with whatever the numbers are at any given time. But there is no need to exaggerate how bad things are, or to misrepresent what someone else is saying in order to make your point.

Smacruairi

Lillyfae wrote: »

To suggest that extra days off should be added to the already published school calendar is equally rubbish then, especially when there is a high chance of days off due to Covid throughout the year ad hoc.
I would also remind you that we did actually know in March and April that this year would be disrupted by Covid (you were already working from home), and the likely incubation period.

The situation is bad and management strategy has to be continually updated to deal with whatever the numbers are at any given time. But there is no need to exaggerate how bad things are, or to misrepresent what someone else is saying in order to make your point.

That's all fine, then why did thr DES not publish their return to school guidelines until August? If all this was so easily predictable one would think that the government would be all over it.

You have no clue how the DES works, how schools work, how circulars work, nor how to just admit you're so wrong it's actually cringey watching you sputter falsehoods and mistruths. Youre a dolt.

harr

Haven’t seen the whole thread but is it most peoples consensus now that schools should finish up early?
I have seen local to me a rise in cases from the schools where we had only one between the 3 schools in total now we have 10 in the last few weeks still a low number between 3 schools.
But I do feel maybe most schools should be looking at finishing a week earlier.

Boggles

harr wrote: »

Haven’t seen the whole thread but is it most peoples consensus now that schools should finish up early?
I have seen local to me a rise in cases from the schools where we had only one between the 3 schools in total now we have 10 in the last few weeks still a low number between 3 schools.
But I do feel maybe most schools should be looking at finishing a week earlier.

Time to plan for that was a month ago when it was suggested, but completely utterly blown out of the water for reasons other than it was a sound idea.

SusanC10

harr wrote: »

Haven’t seen the whole thread but is it most peoples consensus now that schools should finish up early?
I have seen local to me a rise in cases from the schools where we had only one between the 3 schools in total now we have 10 in the last few weeks still a low number between 3 schools.
But I do feel maybe most schools should be looking at finishing a week earlier.

Different Parents have different circumstances but I do think that if Parents are able to particularly if they intend to be with elderly or vulnerable family members on 24th/25th/26th, that they should take their kids out of school early.
Not to mix with other kids but to minimise their contacts.

We are taking our own Kids out on Friday 18th because we are in a position to do so without much disruption. As are several friends too.

khalessi

Lillyfae wrote: »

To suggest that extra days off should be added to the already published school calendar is equally rubbish then, especially when there is a high chance of days off due to Covid throughout the year ad hoc.

I do appreciate your honesty for the bits in bold, but I would wonder if you've worked in enough schools to create a big enough sample. I would also remind you that we did actually know in March and April that this year would be disrupted by Covid (you were already working from home), and the likely incubation period. My point is that principals could have chosen for the Christmas break to be 2 days earlier, and then to go back 2 days earlier, well in advance. There is the flexibility for that. For whatever reason they didn't. I'm sure they had enough to deal with, so it's understandable if they didn't think of it, but they could have.

The situation is bad and management strategy has to be continually updated to deal with whatever the numbers are at any given time. But there is no need to exaggerate how bad things are, or to misrepresent what someone else is saying in order to make your point.

You are still wrong. This post shows how little you understood from the circular or from the explanations given to you or how schools work and are managed No one misrepresented you, you just didnt understand what you were reading and how to apply it.

However many times you try to interpret it you are incorrect. You are embarrassing yourself.