Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Smacruairi

The principal would be Secretary to the BOM. Practically 0% chance that they made any move without running it by the chair and then the board itself.

Also, for the likes of some posters who have now gone silent who have absolutely zero ideas how schools work, normally a board has at least 2 parent reps, 2 patron or trust reps, and then 2 staff reps, with the principal not having any voting powers. So it would have been only 33% max of the board being those who work full time in thr school to back that decision, with the majority being parents etc giving it the go ahead.

wirelessdude01

Dempo1 wrote: »

I thought initially they did but I saw a report on this on the evening RTE news and they clearly said the board (or goverence, as they put it), did not support the decision to close, this is why I find this situation very, very ODD

I understand the Laois school was actually advised to close by public health.

The board of governance is part of the DES, not the local BOM for a school.

Dempo1

History Queen wrote: »

The BOM did support the principal's decision I thought?. Part of his reasoning for closing was the amount of staff self isolating and being unable to recruit subs.

Edit: board did agree with principal, it was the governance section of the Dept of Education that disagreed. See school website with details around decision attached.

http://www.claremorrisboysns.com/445832140

Ah, I see, it's the way RTE reported it that confused me, I got a sense the BOM didn't support the decision, this Said, is it not DOE policy, generally that no school closes, unless public health advise it too? and even at that it's a grey area.

History Queen

Dempo1 wrote: »

Ah, I see, it's the way RTE reported it that confused me, I got a sense the BOM didn't support the decision, this Said, is it not DOE policy, generally that no school closes, unless public health advise it too? and even at that it's a grey area.

Easy mistake to make. As regards closure policy, in relation to Covid yes, the policy appears to be that schools should only close following a public health recommendation to do so.

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

Also, for the likes of some posters who have now gone silent who have absolutely zero ideas how schools work...

Just to point out that I actually have a life outside Internet. While this thread is riveting enough when I'm supposed to do invoicing it most certainly isn't riveting enough to follow it on Friday evening.

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

Just to point out that I actually have a life outside Internet. While this thread is riveting enough when I'm supposed to do invoicing it most certainly isn't riveting enough to follow it on Friday evening.

I was talking about the one who thinks that students won't melt in the rain, don't flatter yourself thinking you're on my mind lol

meeeeh

Smacruairi wrote: »

I was talking about the one who thinks that students won't melt in the rain, don't flatter yourself thinking you're on my mind lol

Well my daddy is bigger than your daddy...

Grow up. :rolleyes:

Smacruairi

meeeeh wrote: »

Well my daddy is bigger than your daddy...

Grow up. :rolleyes:

So you thought I was referencing you, you were wrong, and when I corrected you, I should grow up? Right so... You also didn't engage with any of my post, just wanted to have a pop at me...
I've no idea what the daddy thing is about to be honest.

One poster said that she knew how schools worked, that they could be flexible as they wanted. They have not posted since the DES hilariously literally proved them wrong despite several posters here politely telling them so.

km79

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/12/11/mayo-td-seeking-explanation-from-health-minister-over-efforts-to-keep-claremorris-school-open-despite-covid-outbreak/?fbclid=IwAR2p96QISYn363f8QYlIhNVbO1LYBtxJRM-a2xUCRY2am4eFbBf3TXK4-wE

The tide is turning .....vast majority of over 400 comments on the Facebook page tracking Covid cases in schools are supporting the P which is a first !
Attendance on Monday morning will tell a tale though.....

Rodin

School got told!!!

Great to see...

Teachers will have to do their Christmas shopping another time....

Rodin

Donald Trump wrote: »

When I was a child in primary school I remember we would be looking at the weather forecast on the telly if the weather was cold to see whether there might be snow coming in, hoping that we could get an extra day off. Snow or storm or anything really. Just hoping for any excuse for a day off from the classroom.

Your teachers were doing the same....

Rodin

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Well the reason given was teacher fatigue if I remember correctly. It has been a long and draining year, but it has been a lot longer for some than others. As an example, what do you think happens when a hospital ward is short staffed as some are out with covid? They ask the remaining staff to do extra shifts and the staff don't want to leave their colleagues short. So they work extra shifts, in an environment where the likelihood of picking it up is high. The last thing you want to do is go in and work even more hours in that environment, but they really feel they have a choice. If you have kids, then you have to try and work around it, maybe the partner can work on the weekends or late into the evenings. There has been 9 months of that. That is where the eye rolling about "Teacher fatigue" is coming from.

Of course they're fatigued.
They're mentally and physically weak.

Anyone who works so few days in a year is of course not going to be able to cope with any extra effort.

beggars_bush

I suspect that school will be looking for a new principal soon as he looked for support but didn't get it
Schools shouldn't be put in a position like that, its very unfair

pc7

I’d be very surprised if kids turn up Monday, hopefully no further positives regardless. The area seems riddled there at the minute.

Ted_YNWA

Rodin wrote: »

School got told!!!

Great to see...

Teachers will have to do their Christmas shopping another time....

Rodin wrote: »

Your teachers were doing the same....

Rodin wrote: »

Of course they're fatigued.
They're mentally and physically weak.

Anyone who works so few days in a year is of course not going to be able to cope with any extra effort.

Mod

Don't post in this thread again.

km79

pc7 wrote: »

I’d be very surprised if kids turn up Monday, hopefully no further positives regardless. The area seems riddled there at the minute.

Yes a crèche has closed too

KerryConnor

The situation is Claremorris is really upsetting. The job of principal is first and foremost to look after the safety and wellfare of the students and staff. Cannot believe DES didn't allow him make that call but instead insisted he reopen. Such a disregard of people's health.

KerryConnor

Also can't believe that school hasn't been mass tested at this point. Has any school in ireland been mass tested?

Boggles

KerryConnor wrote: »

Also can't believe that school hasn't been mass tested at this point. Has any school in ireland been mass tested?

We have the capacity, they should mass test the village.

lulublue22

KerryConnor wrote: »

The situation is Claremorris is really upsetting. The job of principal is first and foremost to look after the safety and wellfare of the students and staff. Cannot believe DES didn't allow him make that call but instead insisted he reopen. Such a disregard of people's health.

Gov are walking a very fine line. They have nailed their mast to the door of keeping the schools open. DES have been explicitly clear re same - no unilateral action by schools will be tolerated.
I think the issue for many is the disparity and contradictory messages - There is a discrepancy between what constitutes a close contact in the real world and school.
The close contact definition was updated for schools after October midterm - it’s as clear as mud - if anything was open to “interpretation” then that isðŸ˜
A public Health official waded in with her tweet re the need to be conservative re close contacts in schools otherwise they’d all be at home and who’d mind them.
There was lots and lots of talk about little to no transmission in schools. Which is clearly untrue.
PH decisions on the ground appear arbitrary.
There were questions around the PH teams response in the Cork school before they eventually closed it. The school community ended up with 47 cases.
There was a lot of difficulty trying to access school cases - it’s one of the reasons the informing patents page on facebook took off.

All the while the gov are well social distanced in a 50,000 a day convention centre. Not to mention the time the entire cabinet had a wee panic attack and self isolated when they actually didn’t need to.

None of the above suggests schools are drivers of the virus but the repeated assertion that there is little to no transmission in schools is absolute rubbish and I don’t think the optics look good.

I think the DES may have scored an own goal here. It may have been better to let the school close and let the issue fizzle out. Everyone wants their children in school but they also want the reassurance that if necessary their children’s health will be prioritised.

KerryConnor

Totally agree with last post. Such a weird hard line to take. Hard decision s admittedly all around but choosing to allow possibility of another few families get covid over a week of home schooling is plain mad.
I'm all for keeping schools open and also for closing them quickly when incident rates get too high..as it clearly is here.

Donald Trump

km79 wrote: »

The tide is turning .....vast majority of over 400 comments on the Facebook page tracking Covid cases in schools are supporting the P which is a first !
Attendance on Monday morning will tell a tale though.....

Ah, well if it's on facebook then it must be true. I'd say that all the comments come from 400 of the concerned parents of the 125 kids that attend the school.

Stateofyou

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/a-game-of-russian-roulette-—-parents-united-in-fury-as-school-hit-by-covid-told-to-reopen/ar-BB1bRNJv?li=BBr5KbJ

"‘A game of Russian Roulette’ — Parents united in fury as school hit by COVID told to reopen

Principal Mark Loftus said he was forced to make the decision to shut the school after two of the five classes were sent home because of recently diagnosed Covid cases. He said there is a lot of anxiety among families who want to have a safe Christmas and some are concerned about older and vulnerable family members.

With the Covid rate in that area three times the national rate, furious parents last night supported the school’s decision.

In the space of just two hours, a post about the school reopening, yesterday evening, accumulated over 300 furious comments on a popular Facebook page which alerts parents to outbreaks.

Parenting expert Laura Erskine, of Babydoc Club, said of the Claremorris school yesterday: ‘To be honest, if I was a parent of a child in that school I would be taking my children out altogether until Christmas.’

Donald Trump

KerryConnor wrote: »

Totally agree with last post. Such a weird hard line to take. Hard decision s admittedly all around but choosing to allow possibility of another few families get covid over a week of home schooling is plain mad.
I'm all for keeping schools open and also for closing them quickly when incident rates get too high..as it clearly is here.

It's not clear to the public health experts though. So if the experts are going in and assessing the situation and saying it isn't dangerous then I'm inclined to believe them rather than whatever you might be reading on facebook.



I read the Examiner article linked above. It has this quote:

article above wrote:

Mr Loftus said it had been unrealistic to expect schools to stay open “at all costs”, and that children had been asking why it was necessary to have windows open in the middle of winter.

It seems a bit strange to bring open windows up in the context of an implied outbreak.I thought that all schools had to have the windows open. Or am I wrong on that?



BTW, the school website published the words of letter sent from the HSE to the parents of a student. It says

This means that your child will be on restricted movements until 11/12/2020 and can return to normal activities on the 12/12/2020.

I find the Examiner article to be a bit ambiguous. Although it could be badly written. The way that the article is written is not inconsistent with the scenario that no students currently have it, or that no students currently have it but that some of their family members might have tested positive. The school website does explicitly state that some students tested positive but that seems to have been weeks ago.

lulublue22

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's not clear to the public health experts though. So if the experts are going in and assessing the situation and saying it isn't dangerous then I'm inclined to believe them rather than whatever you might be reading on facebook.



I read the Examiner article linked above. It has this quote:

It seems a bit strange to bring open windows up in the context of an implied outbreak.I thought that all schools had to have the windows open. Or am I wrong on that?



BTW, the school website published the words of letter sent from the HSE to the parents of a student. It says



I find the Examiner article to be a bit ambiguous. Although it could be badly written. The way that the article is written is not inconsistent with the scenario that no students currently have it, or that no students currently have it but that some of their family members might have tested positive. The school website does explicitly state that some students tested positive but that seems to have been weeks ago.

There have been a number of cases over the last few days - starting on the 3rd Dec - so I presume that / those cases maybe due back in and around the 12. The subsequent cases are still isolating. So there has been transmission - the mode of transmission is unclear - PH have said they are not convinced the school is the source of transmission.
( Personally I don’t equate not convinced with no there is no transmission in the school. But that’s just my opinion.)
You may have missed the fact that 3 out of the 5 staff are currently isolating and the school can not source subs. Tbf school is in a bit of a bind unless Norma or the inspectorate pitch in to help.

Donald Trump

lulublue22 wrote: »

There have been a number of cases over the last few days - starting on the 3rd Dec - so I presume that / those cases maybe due back in and around the 12. The subsequent cases are still isolating. So there has been transmission - the mode of transmission is unclear - PH have said they are not convinced the school is the source of transmission.
( Personally I don’t equate not convinced with no there is no transmission in the school. But that’s just my opinion.)
You may have missed the fact that 3 out of the 5 staff are currently isolating and the school can not source subs. Tbf school is in a bit of a bind unless Norma or the inspectorate pitch in to help.

I'm just going on the article. As I said, it could just be a badly written article. I can't tell whether it is purposely ambiguous. For example, saying that "parents confirmed other cases" could be a parent confirming that there were other cases in their circles, not necessarily in the children.



There are no details about staff isolating or for how long. Perhaps their isolation is in line with the letter to the parent and ends today. You would have to assume that if any of those staff had been diagnosed with Covid that the principal would have mentioned that rather than saying that children asking why they have to leave the windows open. Or maybe he did mention it and the paper didn't include it.


Edit: The website does say that 11 students have tested positive

Boggles

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's not clear to the public health experts though. So if the experts are going in and assessing the situation and saying it isn't dangerous then I'm inclined to believe them rather than whatever you might be reading on facebook.

I think you are overstating what they do or are allowed do.

They have a lamented check list, there is no crack team of public health storming the building or village.

They have admitted in this situation the are unsure, if you are unsure when it comes to public health you don't take a punt.

wirelessdude01

If I was a sub in the Claremorris area I think I'd be screening my calls. School principal already said that he'd had issues this to get subs as it was.

lulublue22

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm just going on the article. As I said, it could just be a badly written article. I can't tell whether it is purposely ambiguous. For example, saying that "parents confirmed other cases" could be a parent confirming that there were other cases in their circles, not necessarily in the children.



There are no details about staff isolating or for how long. Perhaps their isolation is in line with the letter to the parent and ends today. You would have to assume that if any of those staff had been diagnosed with Covid that the principal would have mentioned that rather than saying that children asking why they have to leave the windows open. Or maybe he did mention it and the paper didn't include it.

TBH each paper / news outlet is reporting the issue slightly differently. At one stage I read 9 current cases and an infection rate of 7.2 % but I can’t recall where. From my perspective I’m leaning towards the principal on this as it is a huge step for a BOM to go against the dep and one in my experience that is not taken lightly.

ETA if staff are close contacts they need to isolate and need 2 negative tests before returning so they could still be isolating depending on when identified as close contacts.

I think it’s also important to note that while the headlines are school closes for xmas - they school were set up to offer online learning. Which would address the sub issue provided none of the staff subsequently developed covid.

Donald Trump

lulublue22 wrote: »

TBH each paper / news outlet is reporting the issue slightly differently. At one stage I read 9 current cases and an infection rate of 7.2 % but I can’t recall where. From my perspective I’m leaning towards the principal on this as it is a huge step for a BOM to go against the dep and one in my experience that is not taken lightly.

I don't understand why they had to make a big public song and dance about it. Surely if it was really that bad then they could tell the parents of the situation and most would probably keep their kids at home for a day or two. If there were one or two that couldn't then they could send their kids in as normal but there would be very little mixing then.


If there are already 2 classrooms at home sure they could divide up the other classes as well across all the space.