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Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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    #5912
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Icyseanfitz wrote: »
    Be easy to say its because she's from Kerry, i however believe one school closes and another is forced open because Foley and the department don't have an iota what they are actually doing. Wouldn't surprise me if the forced the school in Kerry to reopen for the remainder of the term

    I think this is more the reason. Also the reaction of the public to their treatment of Claremorris wasnt good so they address that by testing another school. they have a very sqewered approach, it would have been better if it was left to the schools, who have experience in dealing with communicable diseases on a school level.


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    #5913
    Blondini
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭Blondini


    awec wrote: »
    So while attendance is down, the data you present indicates that almost 3/4 parents are still sending their kids to school.

    Not sure this indicates that there's any widespread public disapproval of kids going to school like you try to imply.

    Sorry, I'll make it simpler for you.

    Pre covid: 90% attendance
    Now: 72% attendance


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    #5914
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,561 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    St Mary's DS in Drogheda has 15 confirmed cases. 14 teachers off, the entire 3rd year told to stay home until after Christmas. About 300 kids.

    Not newsworthy.


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    #5915
    Ray Donovan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Ray Donovan


    Hoboo wrote: »
    St Mary's DS in Drogheda has 15 confirmed cases. 14 teachers off, the entire 3rd year told to stay home until after Christmas. About 300 kids.

    Not newsworthy.

    Forgot to open the windows obviously. Couldn’t be anything more serious than that according to Tony et al.


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    #5916
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Hoboo wrote: »
    St Mary's DS in Drogheda has 15 confirmed cases. 14 teachers off, the entire 3rd year told to stay home until after Christmas. About 300 kids.

    Not newsworthy.

    Where are you seeing that? Hadn't heard it at all.


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    #5917
    lulublue22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    khalessi wrote: »
    I think this is more the reason. Also the reaction of the public to their treatment of Claremorris wasnt good so they address that by testing another school. they have a very sqewered approach, it would have been better if it was left to the schools, who have experience in dealing with communicable diseases on a school level.

    I don’t actually believe it is best left to schools. However I do feel there needs to be more co-operation between PH and schools with schools given a voice. I would expect PH to be fully aware of the make up if a school and not cite no infection in junior classes as a rationale for not closing a senior primary school. I think a clear rationale for decisions undertaken by PH needs to be communicated to schools / teachers. I think there needs to be more emphasis on parents informing schools of positive cases. My main concern is that PH seems to be working off a checklist and not being aware of / responding to actual events on the ground.


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    #5918
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    lulublue22 wrote: »
    I don’t actually believe it is best left to schools. However I do feel there needs to be more co-operation between PH and schools with schools given a voice. I would expect PH to be fully aware of the make up if a school and not cite no infection in junior classes as a rationale for not closing a senior primary school. I think a clear rationale for decisions undertaken by PH needs to be communicated to schools / teachers. I think there needs to be more emphasis on parents informing schools of positive cases. My main concern is that PH seems to be working off a checklist and not being aware of / responding to actual events on the ground.

    Maybe Leo's favourite word might get an outing.

    Bespoke hasn't been heard in a while.


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    #5919
    lulublue22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Maybe Leo's favourite word might get an outing.

    Bespoke hasn't been heard in a while.

    Bit of transparency wouldn’t go astray that’s for sure.


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    #5920
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    It really is a joke that we are four months into the school year and still no one in a school setting can be sure or certain how things will be handled within their school by public health.

    ZERO CONSISTENCY.


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    #5921
    lulublue22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    It really is a joke that we are four months into the school year and still no one in a school setting can be sure or certain how things will be handled within their school by public health.

    ZERO CONSISTENCY.

    I think that’s a huge issue for staff - even the updated close contact definition is genuinely incomprehensible.


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    #5922
    harr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭harr


    Probably been answered before but where are the teaching Unions ? Surely this is now a health and safety issue. You wouldn’t get away with unsafe working conditions anywhere else.
    Could teachers not just down tools on Friday?


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    #5923
    hesaidshesaid
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭hesaidshesaid


    harr wrote: »
    Probably been answered before but where are the teaching Unions ? Surely this is now a health and safety issue. You wouldn’t get away with unsafe working conditions anywhere else.
    Could teachers not just down tools on Friday?

    The unions are one of the teaching profession's biggest problems unfortunately. We absolutely couldn't down tools, they would stop our pay.


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    #5924
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Blondini wrote: »
    Sorry, I'll make it simpler for you.

    Pre covid: 90% attendance
    Now: 72% attendance

    Right, so as I said, while attendance is clearly down, almost 3/4 parents still sent their kids to school.

    Do you believe this indicates widespread public disapproval of the current school situation? Your implication that the public have a different view of schooling compared to the govts current policy is not supported by the data you presented.


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    #5925
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,453 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Outbreaks data 22/08 to 12/12

    Private homes are attributed to by far the most outbreaks. The schools numbers vs hospitals and nursing homes really surprised me... is ppe the mitigating factor? Or am i drawing the wrong conclusions?

    https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1339196341340221441?s=19


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    #5926
    hesaidshesaid
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭hesaidshesaid


    awec wrote: »
    Right, so as I said, while attendance is clearly down, almost 3/4 parents still sent their kids to school.

    Do you believe this indicates widespread public disapproval of the current school situation? Your implication that the public have a different view of schooling compared to the govts current policy is not supported by the data you presented.
    awec wrote: »
    Right, so as I said, while attendance is clearly down, almost 3/4 parents still sent their kids to school.

    Do you believe this indicates widespread public disapproval of the current school situation? Your implication that the public have a different view of schooling compared to the govts current policy is not supported by the data you presented.

    I think what concerns most teachers is that public opinion of the return to school is based on the limited information available to them eg. the government's spin on it and the selective data which is being put into the public sphere. Obviously parents are asking their kids how things are going, but certainly at primary level, we are making sure that there is as little stress as possible on kids so we couch everything in very palatable terms for them. Despite this, there are kids struggling with anxiety and behavioural issues, which trigger other kids and impede teaching and learning. Most parents (of the other children in the class) are unaware of this.

    In many classrooms in Ireland, there are 30+ kids in a room so small that 1m between table groups is a pipedream. 2m from the teacher at all times is bull****, that's not the nature of the job. If we were 2m away they wouldn't be able to hear us through the mask anyway, it really muffles your voice. So the notion that any social distancing is possible is fanciful.

    We have had 2 known cases in our school to date. The first was in September. No one else was deemed necessary for testing. Our second case was 2 weeks ago, this time the whole class and relevant teachers/SNAs were tested and told to isolate for 2 weeks. The cases were identical, the PH approach is markedly different. This inconsistency is what worries school staff. The response appears to be determined by the whim of whoever answers the phone in Public Health. It is largely believed that more full classes are being tested now because stories in the media of kids missing Christmas due to self-isolating is bad for the government narrative. Will this practice peter out again in January?

    So to be honest, if you're a teacher, the public approval/disapproval of the current school situation is largely irrelevant to you. The public have been sold wonderful tales of huge amounts of money for PPE - that's just sanitiser and rolls of kitchen paper by the way - and accounts of 'extra' advisors for schools. No one can find these advisors. Every teacher and SNA I know is buying their own masks. So we are fully aware of what parents are being told, and of the reality - which is that school classrooms are exactly the same size, with the same amount of kids as last year.

    There is a very big chance that one of the main reasons we have got this far is that all the school doors and windows are open all day. I invite anyone here to do the same while working from home and see what it's like. And then imagine if that's optimal for your child's learning.

    Every teacher I know wants schools open. But we want transparency and consistency from Public Health and acknowledgement that schools are not any safer than any other crowded building. School principals are best placed to identify their school's particular circumstances and that expertise should be taken into consideration when health and safety decisions are being made. Currently that is not the case.


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    #5927
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,561 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Where are you seeing that? Hadn't heard it at all.

    I know a few teachers in there.


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    #5928
    frank8211
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭frank8211


    HerrKuehn wrote: »
    I don't think anyone thinks that letting schools off 2 days early will make any difference to whether or not we will have a lockdown after xmas. It will depend more on how people socialise over xmas, new years parties etc

    It might make a huge difference to the health of their families though if they quit school asap


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    #5929
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Don't understand what has changed in a week between Mayo and Kerry schools.

    All the teachers in Mayo ahould be enjoying nice long lie-ins every day...


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    #5930
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    Don't understand what has changed in a week between Mayo and Kerry schools.

    All the teachers in Mayo ahould be enjoying nice long lie-ins every day...

    Could it be that herself is from that constituency?


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    #5931
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    Don't understand what has changed in a week between Mayo and Kerry schools.

    All the teachers in Mayo ahould be enjoying nice long lie-ins every day...

    As far as I’m aware that school went online not closed. The parent on the media said their child was at the desk computer working


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    #5932
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    History Queen wrote: »
    Outbreaks data 22/08 to 12/12

    Private homes are attributed to by far the most outbreaks. The schools numbers vs hospitals and nursing homes really surprised me... is ppe the mitigating factor? Or am i drawing the wrong conclusions?

    https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1339196341340221441?s=19

    There are far more schools than hospitals


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    #5933
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    Don't understand what has changed in a week between Mayo and Kerry schools.

    All the teachers in Mayo ahould be enjoying nice long lie-ins every day...

    We know the cases in Claremorris were over the course of 6 weeks and strongly associated with an outbreak in a food processing plant. What do we know about the Kerry outbreak?


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    #5934
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    The out break in Ramsgrange is due to a funeral going to the pub, no masks, no social distancing. Clusters developed, families infected the kids that went to the school. One adult in a very bad way. Locals are not very happy right now.


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    #5935
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    average_runner wrote: »
    The out break in Ramsgrange is due to a funeral going to the pub, no masks, no social distancing. Clusters developed, families infected the kids that went to the school. One adult in a very bad way. Locals are not very happy right now.

    That's terrible.


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    #5936
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,453 ✭✭✭History Queen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    There are far more schools than hospitals

    Very true, less people in close proximity obviously a mitagating factor too. (Not just the ppe i said previously)


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    #5937
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    History Queen wrote: »
    Very true, less people in close proximity obviously a mitagating factor too. (Not just the ppe i said previously)

    Schools have averaged 4 cases per outbreak, acute hospitals have averaged 13, nursing homes 16.


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    #5938
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,453 ✭✭✭History Queen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Schools have averaged 4 cases per outbreak, acute hospitals have averaged 13, nursing homes 16.

    I'm not questioning the numbers. I didn't realise the cases per outbreak were available. Where can I look at them?

    If what you said above is correct then does proximity not matter as much as I thought?


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    #5939
    Blondini
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭Blondini


    History Queen wrote: »
    Outbreaks data 22/08 to 12/12

    Private homes are attributed to by far the most outbreaks. The schools numbers vs hospitals and nursing homes really surprised me... is ppe the mitigating factor? Or am i drawing the wrong conclusions?

    https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1339196341340221441?s=19

    Still loving the fact that educational settings get their own special asterisk.

    This asterisk is saying that everywhere else there was an outbreak, there was definitely transmission but we are never going to admit transmission within schools.

    This distinction is impossible to prove since nobody knows 100% who they were infected by.


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    #5940
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    History Queen wrote: »
    I'm not questioning the numbers. I didn't realise the cases per outbreak were available. Where can I look at them?

    If what you said above is correct then does proximity not matter as much as I thought?

    Its not immediately obvious in the report, but can be calculated. For example in the below snip for the report on schools specifically there are 19 outbreaks last week associated with 41 cases - just over 2 per outbreak, and since week 32, 987 cases associated with 246 outbreaks - just over 4

    536380.JPG

    https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19outbreaksclustersinireland/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Outbreak%20Report_Week502020_v1.0_15122020_WebVersion.pdf


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    #5941
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    frank8211 wrote: »
    It might make a huge difference to the health of their families though if they quit school asap


    If the teachers/ schools hands are tied, which seems to be the case, then there's nothing stopping parents from deciding to withdraw their child early in order to have a safe Christmas. Schools can still stay open, Teachers can still turn up to teach. Not their fault if there's no kids to teach ;)


This discussion has been closed.
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