Schools closed until February? (part 3)

...Ghost...

tom1ie wrote: »

But realistically what extra funds are required to send kids home?
Fair enough most families will not have a tablet or laptop per pupil, but you can pick one up for €100. The department can provide a voucher for this.
Other than that the teachers/department have to put together short videos for the particular subjects which they are gonna teach anyway.
They divide the class in five a b c d e.
On Monday a comes in and the teacher live streams Mondays class (pupils not recorded for gdpr) so b c d e watch from home.
This alternates.
Short Interactive Videos can be developed by the department (Should have been done in the previous 6 months!) to further help kids if they need more time on a particular part of a subject, eg tricky words.
I mean we could be without a vaccine for years or never, if we go with this mindset we have to get a solution, cause the way it is spreading in schools now we will never get a handle on covid.

I ran a similar idea by my OH. I suggested splitting classes in two because kids would need more than a day, or two per week to keep on top of their learning. Group 1 in for a week and Group 2 in for the next week. Rotate weekly. Each class should be streamed and recorded for the kids not physically there. The teacher could take polls to check that online students are engaged.

Where is is no possible to live stream classes, or where students have no internet access (few and far between these days), the recorded session should be uploaded by the teacher at the end of each subject/day and this can be downloaded by the teacher, or parent.

The above would be practical for second level students, but not so much for primary school kids unless there is someone at home, which there will be in many cases.

A benefit of this method is pause and rewind. Don't get something first time around, play it back.

As for devices; even if the Gov knocked off the VAT for tablets and laptops for students and teachers, this would be a great help. Tie it in with the PPS number to minimise abuse.

Doing the above would allow students and teachers to be in a safer environment with improved social distancing. It is not ideal, but it's better than closed schools and everything online.

is_that_so

irishblessing wrote: »

Sorry, but it just takes will and foresight. In the US they also closed schools in March where my friends/family are and all this *brand new* programs was in place by end of August. Our govt sat on their hands and wasted all that time. Hence the anger about what we're faced with now.

And as I've pointed out that's not enough on its own. It just takes time to do, even where that is present. That's the reality of projects.

morebabies

For any secondary school teachers on here, I'm just wondering, do the textbooks for Junior and Leaving Cert subjects (apart from the practical elements and CBAs) contain basically everything a student would need to know for the exams? I'm English so not sure if extra resources are needed. For example, if there is a case of a motivated student learning at home, using past papers too, will they have all the knowledge required if they basically learn and understand everything in the textbooks or is there a wealth of info they'd miss out on by limiting themselves to the books?

LittleBrick

Going to put forward another suggestion (primary level).

Divide class in half, by surname (so that families times align).

First half in school from 9-11.30. Focus ONLY on Maths (50 minutes), English (an hour) and Irish (45 minutes). No breaks or yard in this time, pupils each at one desk, at least 2m from nearest pupil.

First group leave at 11.30. Teachers spend 30 minutes disinfecting surfaces, chairs, etc, and take a 30 minute lunch. Second group comes in from 12.30-3.00, covering the exact same as above.

Children who need support for specific subjects are taken during their time, or get additional support from support teachers via Zoom (whichever is more practicable).

tom1ie

is_that_so wrote: »

That's at least 6 projects rolled into one. It's not that people are against the idea nor that there is no will, it's just not practical as an immediate solution. Back of the envelope generous guess to get all of that up and running would be 6 months+.

We’ve had 6 months of doing nothing already!!

is_that_so

tom1ie wrote: »

We’ve had 6 months of doing nothing already!!

Which proves my point even more clearly!

tom1ie

is_that_so wrote: »

And as I've pointed out that's not enough on its own. It just takes time to do, even where that is present. That's the reality of projects.

We’ve had 6 months of nothing.

is_that_so

tom1ie wrote: »

We’ve had 6 months of nothing.

4 months of that was complete closure of the country.

tom1ie

khalessi wrote: »

Yeah the teaching was mixed some excellent some ok some poor. The weekly email needs to have videos on it, there is no point having just page numbers with no explanation.

The videos are already there but parents need to know where to find them on the likes of khan academy or mathantics or such like, and then the videos for the other subjects.

Are these primary level (second class and senior infants) videos?

Our school didn’t provide any links to videos just reams and reams of paper to print off.

tom1ie

is_that_so wrote: »

4 months of that was complete closure of the country.

Yes where the department could be wfh on this idea.

is_that_so

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes where the department could be wfh on this idea.

Ah, you're endowing the DES with supernatural powers they'll never have.

tom1ie

is_that_so wrote: »

Ah, you're endowing the DES with supernatural powers they'll never have.

So is it too much to ask that the department can see a problem coming work on it via ms teams or something similar and come some way to providing a coherent plan?
There’s people on this forum that could probably come up with better ideas than what’s being bandied about.
Actually are the department even viewing this as an issue behind closed doors I wonder?

is_that_so

tom1ie wrote: »

So is it too much to ask that the department can see a problem coming work on it via ms teams or something similar and come some way to providing a coherent plan?
There’s people on this forum that could probably come up with better ideas than what’s being bandied about.
Actually are the department even viewing this as an issue behind closed doors I wonder?

I've only had brief exposure to them in one workplace but like everyone else experienced their genius through school! Pretty much the worst and most glacially moving department of the lot IMO. Look at how long it takes them to even look at curriculum review for your answer! I don't disagree that there are some decent ideas but how to scale that up and if that would scale up is the question.

...Ghost...

morebabies wrote: »

For any secondary school teachers on here, I'm just wondering, do the textbooks for Junior and Leaving Cert subjects (apart from the practical elements and CBAs) contain basically everything a student would need to know for the exams? I'm English so not sure if extra resources are needed. For example, if there is a case of a motivated student learning at home, using past papers too, will they have all the knowledge required if they basically learn and understand everything in the textbooks or is there a wealth of info they'd miss out on by limiting themselves to the books?

Not a teacher, but the OH is. The text books will have most of the information needed to pass the exams. For the best marks, the knowledge and guidance of a teacher is really needed. They will impart relevant knowledge not necessarily in the books. Also a teacher gives feedback to allow students to modify their approach.

JimmyVik

niamh247 wrote: »

Clusters?? How can asymptomatic transmission create clusters? Schools are THE exchange points. This government doesn't want anyone point at schools. School staff are scared to talk about it.

Face it. The emperor has no cloths. Someone would talk about it.

About the clusters in homes.
The virus isnt just springing up in a home.
Gee I wonder how it could possibly get into a home.
Not from one of the children sitting in a small room with 30 others all day. Sure the virus isnt allowed past the school gates.

JimmyVik

appledrop wrote: »

You have hit the nail on the head. How the hell can a whole class not be classed as close contacts if spending all day together in small room + if primary school even worse as no masks.

NPHET are quick to give examples of how someone tests positive + they are after being in restaurant for 90 minutes max but still manage to spread it to people at other tables, waiter etc. They would also have much more space between tables then kids in school.

Is their some magic dust thats sprinkled on school classrooms that stops virus spreading?

No what happens is adults in restaurant much more likely to display symptoms so get tested, meanwhile for some mad reason they don't test whole class in school.

Its a receipt for disaster as we are clearly seeing. There should be constant random testing in schools. It could be easily done as HSE go around every school doing regular vacciantions on children during normal times.

However no one wants to do it due to cost + fact that they would have to admit to scale of problem if testing done in schools.

If they were sitting in any other room (not in a school) the same size for days on end together you can bet they will all be isolated and tested.

irishblessing

is_that_so wrote: »

Ah, you're endowing the DES with supernatural powers they'll never have.

Ok I see your point, but also, they aren't 'supernatural powers' though. It's called doing the job you're paid to do. They sh!t the bed over the spring/summer and now they're flopping around in the mess. We have to expect and demand better. Not just revert to this 'ah sure what else is new' thinking.

Disingenuous stances such as releasing the plans for school reopening with only several weeks until school was back and leaving the schools to figure it all out on a quick turnaround with a shoestring budget, the Taoiseach visiting a school for media purposes with ppe and distancing that isn't possible in the majority of schools, and conveniently ignoring large research studies, not looking to learn from other countries who have had safer outcomes in regards to school reopening/staying open.
And from one administration to the next underfunding our education sector so long and so badly that comparatively in the EU we lack resources, fit for purpose buildings, an actual "free" education and we "enjoy" one of the largest class sizes in Europe.

The chronic mishandling of our country's education system is appalling.

JimmyVik

Mrsmum wrote: »

To test everyone in a school where there is a case would, imo, be very useful. Even though I am pro schools staying open full time, unlike yourself I think, I see the sense in what you and others are saying in your posts. Basically at the end of the day we all need proper information that speaks to our own common sense. At the moment imo there is a vacuum and anxiety and worry and all sort of theories are naturally finding a home there for many if not all of us.
I would say though that NPHET are charged with keeping us safe and with bringing us out of this as well as possible, they are highly intelligent, logical and have all the real information at their fingertips. So it makes no sense to me why if they knew schools were a problem, why they would knowingly allow the virus to spread rapidly and turn a blind eye to it. Or why they would refuse to even consider schools as a major source. That doesn't make sense, does it ?

nphet want the schools and creches to stay open because thats who minds the children of the frontline workers.
If schools and creches close then we lose a lot of frontline workers.


I dont mind when there are valid reasons for things, but its the big cover up and one person saying one thing and then being contradicted later on prime time by another that smacks of lies.

LittleBrick

There are countless options that the government either haven't or, let's be honest, are refusing point blank to consider.

ALL of these options are better than the current sh!tshow that is schools at present.

But, as one poster above said, the public face and popularity of the government is winning over common sense and decency.

I do think we may have an extended Christmas break, but that will be all. No reduced class sizes, no other arrangements. Close for 4 weeks at Christmas, then open as planned in January and to hell with anyone affected.

LittleBrick

JimmyVik wrote: »

nphet want the schools and creches to stay open because thats who minds the children of the frontline workers.
If schools and creches close then we lose a lot of frontline workers.


I dont mind when there are valid reasons for things, but its the big cover up and one person saying one thing and then being contradicted later on prime time by another that smacks of lies.

Could they not just open schools for the children of frontline workers, like the UK did. Allow those children to be in their classroom (and children of teachers included in this) and the rest watching lessons streamed live from home.

BonsaiKitten

LittleBrick wrote: »

Could they not just open schools for the children of frontline workers, like the UK did. Allow those children to be in their classroom (and children of teachers included in this) and the rest watching lessons streamed live from home.

Tbh I don't think livestreaming lessons from the classroom works at primary level. It might work at secondary but presumably most of those kids are well able to mind themselves at home.

I do think we should have opened in some capacity for frontline staff but afaik those kids weren't being taught in school, it was a rota of teachers doing childcare. That's just based on stories from teachers I know.

LittleBrick

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Tbh I don't think livestreaming lessons from the classroom works at primary level. It might work at secondary but presumably most of those kids are well able to mind themselves at home.

I do think we should have opened in some capacity for frontline staff but afaik those kids weren't being taught in school, it was a rota of teachers doing childcare. That's just based on stories from teachers I know.

But surely, given the current circumstances, live streaming is better than this "all or nothing" approach and complete willful ignoring or the global data. The US have made it work.



The alternate response, to me, is half class attendance, either every day for 2 and a half hours, or every second week. Both of the above are proven way to reduce the spread of the virus.


However, as I stated before, the government will close schools when, and only when, everything else had failed (and perhaps not even then). Getting schools open was one of the very small victories they had this entire pandemic (owing solely to the work of principals and teachers on the ground, not the government themselves!).

BonsaiKitten

LittleBrick wrote: »

But surely, given the current circumstances, live streaming is better than this "all or nothing" approach and complete willful ignoring or the global data. The US have made it work.

The alternate response, to me, is half class attendance, either every day for 2 and a half hours, or every second week. Both of the above are proven way to reduce the spread of the virus.

However, as I stated before, the government will close schools when, and only when, everything else had failed (and perhaps not even then). Getting schools open was one of the very small victories they had this entire pandemic (owing solely to the work of principals and teachers on the ground, not the government themselves!).

Oh I don't disagree that the current situation is ridiculous but I don't think livestreaming class lessons works at primary level. At all. Secondary might be able to stay at one place in the room (and thus be on video) but primary doesn't work like that. It's also very hard to hold kids attention for long periods when teaching through video link as compared to in-person learning (can tell you from experience there teaching full remote, we took plenty of movement breaks), kids at home couldn't ask questions, you'd end up having to have a parent sit with them...lots of issues that make it impractical for teaching and learning.

From reading about the US - different states taking very different approaches - a lot of schools have assigned certain teachers to remote and others to in-person. If we could do that it would be great. I haven't heard any stories of them live streaming primary classrooms and if they are, I'd say the learning of both groups is not where it should be.

Now dont get me wrong, I agree that we need to do something. The half day approach someone mentioned a few posts back might work but Govt won't favour it as it doesn't provide enough childcare. As you say, they're desperate to hang onto their 'successful' reopening!

wirelessdude01

Norma Foley on Today with Claire Byrne now.

wirelessdude01

Fair play to that secondary teacher for texting in.

LittleBrick

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Norma Foley on Today with Claire Byrne now.

Would you update us on what is being said wireless? I can't listen right now, but would love to hear.

wirelessdude01

Lots and lots of bluster. Replying to questions but not actually answering them. Total puff piece. Claire Byrne is far too easy on the interviewees she has on.

LittleBrick

Thanks for that Wireless. Has it been more aimed at the LC fiasco or the refusal to close schools for longer periods than planned? Would love someone to really hammer home the points to her, but these questions are definitely pre screened

wirelessdude01

LC fiasco wasn't referred to except a small mention of whether the resits should be held in schools.

Lots of praise for the school community for keeping schools open. When challenged about schools being kept open and also about there seems to be a shift in policy when it comes to close contacts in schools she quickly shifted the talk to the public health teams.

tom1ie

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Oh I don't disagree that the current situation is ridiculous but I don't think livestreaming class lessons works at primary level. At all. Secondary might be able to stay at one place in the room (and thus be on video) but primary doesn't work like that. It's also very hard to hold kids attention for long periods when teaching through video link as compared to in-person learning (can tell you from experience there teaching full remote, we took plenty of movement breaks), kids at home couldn't ask questions, you'd end up having to have a parent sit with them...lots of issues that make it impractical for teaching and learning.

From reading about the US - different states taking very different approaches - a lot of schools have assigned certain teachers to remote and others to in-person. If we could do that it would be great. I haven't heard any stories of them live streaming primary classrooms and if they are, I'd say the learning of both groups is not where it should be.

Now dont get me wrong, I agree that we need to do something. The half day approach someone mentioned a few posts back might work but Govt won't favour it as it doesn't provide enough childcare. As you say, they're desperate to hang onto their 'successful' reopening!

How about we send secondary students across the country home to live stream their classes.
We move primary classes into the much bigger secondary school rooms.
Not really solving the issue but possibly a small incremental improvement.