Schools closed until February? (part 3)

glack

Stateofyou wrote: »

I'm going to start by saying (reminding) I'm not a teacher. But I have plenty of work experience, and I can say that to be out of my depth/knowledge/experience in some way happens at least a few times a year. I've also been in jobs, especially in the early part of my career, where it's all monotonous and I'm not challenged enough. I much prefer the former.

Anyway, most employers look for self-starters, independent thinkers who can figure things out and doesn't need to be hand-held. In fact this was explicitly stated in the previous position I had. The company transitioned from Outlook to Google apps while I was there and I had to teach myself how to use them. My colleagues and I exchanged tips frequently which was great. We changed video conferencing systems a few times, and the people data system. I took an intermediate Excel course through LinkedIn to teach myself how to create a report that my boss asked me for. She asked if I could get that to her and what she was looking for-I knew I didn't know it at that time, but I knew I could figure it out eventually so I said yes. There's so many other random programs I learned to use, too, in order to get a project done. I accomplished a lot in those 5 years in the job, yes there was some sweat in the high stress moments but looking back I very much feel proud and a sense of accomplishment for rising to so many challenges that at time scared me too. I've had to teach what I know to dozens of people, too. And I've even been involved in projects with kids in the community. My employer didn't usually provide this training, and I put in much of my own time to learn, but that knowledge and skill will always stand to me so it was worth it.

My point is, not knowing how to do something isn't really an excuse. The information and training is there if one cares enough to go after it. Not knowing what platform to use and how to use it by end of December at this stage, is a strange one (especially considering the Principal should have ensured remote learning was possible in future?). Even if my boss or colleagues didn't provide me the training, I would make it my business to figure it out and share what I learned too.

Fair, schools should have chosen their platform and should have been using it since September as instructed. This is not something schools should be waiting for the Department on - no excuse for this at all!

Personally I have completed a serious amount of hours of voluntary PD to make sure I’m as informed as possible. And I was fairly confident anyway!

But again, you can’t compare an office environment to a classroom. I give training courses to teachers. I’ve done several over Zoom. This works brilliantly. Try doing similar with children and it is insanely difficult. I have the skills. But they don’t! When in the classroom I can help and support them like I do with everything else. When they are at home it becomes an impossible task.
Remember, so many of our students read at a very basic level and so many have parents where English is a major challenge (approx 50% of my current class). It’s not straightforward.

Stateofyou

There should be guidance from the department and infrastructure support, full stop.

As someone pointed out, we're talking about children here, and their educational needs are important. Minister Foley should be out there, visibly working her arse off to get schools what they need as we're facing into this situation. Yet I see other Ministers are out there commenting in her job capacity when it's not their place.

Teachers not knowing what platform to use and how to use it at this stage is insane to me; but so then too is the lack of a cohesive plan and support from the DES. If I think about it too long it really písses me off.

I'm not sure I agree remote learning can't or won't work for primary. I've said it many times already but I have friends and family abroad who's children are doing well in these situations. It's not ideal, but hopefully it comes to a short end especially as vaccinations roll out. My kids own rural school has the software in place, and both kids and teachers and parents are ready to go if needed. There wasn't much to it. Parents do need to come through with more involvement than what happened by some earlier in the year. Basically tldr: everyone needs to work together and be willing to do what it takes to make this work-it's not forever.

lulublue22

glack wrote: »

Fair, schools should have chosen their platform and should have been using it since September as instructed. This is not something schools should be waiting for the Department on - no excuse for this at all!

Personally I have completed a serious amount of hours of voluntary PD to make sure I’m as informed as possible. And I was fairly confident anyway!

But again, you can’t compare an office environment to a classroom. I give training courses to teachers. I’ve done several over Zoom. This works brilliantly. Try doing similar with children and it is insanely difficult. I have the skills. But they don’t! When in the classroom I can help and support them like I do with everything else. When they are at home it becomes an impossible task.
Remember, so many of our students read at a very basic level and so many have parents where English is a major challenge (approx 50% of my current class). It’s not straightforward.

I think people genuinely don’t understand the variety of needs in any given class nor do they understand that children don’t have the same ability to just get on with it or generalise knowledge in the same way as adults. Children need huge amounts of support and reinforcement before any generalisation of skills / learning can occur.

Stateofyou

lulublue22 wrote: »

For some reason gov never considered a phased return or a hybrid 1/2 in 1/2 out system. They seem very very caught up in all children in school viewpoint.

Completely agree. Edited to add, especially considering the good point you made about different needs and abilities. It just makes sense.

JimmyVik

lulublue22 wrote: »

For some reason gov never considered a phased return or a hybrid 1/2 in 1/2 out system. They seem very very caught up in all children in school viewpoint.

In fairness, they never actually considered anything.

lulublue22

JimmyVik wrote: »

In fairness, they never actually considered anything.

I think it’s coming back to bite them on the xxs now. I fear they are so far down that particular rabbit hole that they won’t consider any other option and we will end up with remote learning - with each school trying to do it’s best.

JimmyVik

glack wrote: »

Fair, schools should have chosen their platform and should have been using it since September as instructed. This is not something schools should be waiting for the Department on - no excuse for this at all!

Personally I have completed a serious amount of hours of voluntary PD to make sure I’m as informed as possible. And I was fairly confident anyway!

But again, you can’t compare an office environment to a classroom. I give training courses to teachers. I’ve done several over Zoom. This works brilliantly. Try doing similar with children and it is insanely difficult. I have the skills. But they don’t! When in the classroom I can help and support them like I do with everything else. When they are at home it becomes an impossible task.
Remember, so many of our students read at a very basic level and so many have parents where English is a major challenge (approx 50% of my current class). It’s not straightforward.

Thats even before you go into the quality of their devices or the resolution and size of their displays. Their space that they get to work in, how many in a family can work in the space etc. how many devices need to be shared with the family. What if any of the family need tech support? And so much more.



DES should have been getting a plan for all this in place last summer. They couldnt be bothered and have since, in cahoots with the government tried to bury their heads in the sand.

khalessi

The Dept are a joke, they issue a policy about online learning and tick job done. We were told that something would be forthcoming from PDST and others last summer and nothing. We then get an email Oct/Nov with an unpleasant tone telling us to be ready to go online.

I've been using online platforms since last March and would be pretty handy with a computer but like anything it is different when you are trying to teach kids online. I compare it to when I worked in residential care and had to teach someone to boil an egg. Broken down there are at least 60 steps, starting with recognising the egg, then recognising it in a box, then recognising the box in a cupboard. It is slow, ardous but lilttle steps and you eventually get there. It took 2 1/2 years to teach that person how to boil an egg and then they told me they preferred fried

When difficulties occured online I would tell parents I would refer it to our IT Department which they knew was a joke as it was another teacher on staff who helps out with IT in the school.

As it was, to go online last year at home, I had to buy a modem and laptop cost a fortune and then trying to teach while my own kids where doing their school was a joke. They had SEESAW which as a teacher might be great but as a parent was a nightmare. Also one laptop between the kids and me was not easy.

I would like if we did half in half out for the rest of the year as we are 11th on list which is around MAy June if all goes well, considering that there is a more virulent form of the virus which is 50-70% more infectious for primary school kids then previous strain. I would also like that they wore masks. The children wont get injected until October by looks of things.

I would also like if we were moved from 11th place up further to getting the injection as it would make keeping schools open easier. I say that as someone who more than likely cannot have the injection .

KathleenGrant

araic88 wrote: »

After hearing stories from friends in other countries, I think I'd be keen to try a blended approach (if we absolutely couldn't open fully). If half the class could come in from 9-12 perhaps, and then the other from 1-4, to allow for lunch, and cleaning etc. We wouldn't need as much time to prepare lessons because it would only be three hours of teaching, repeated, instead of five hours.
This all or nothing approach we've had doesn't suit anyone.

My problem with the above scenario is the lack of cleaning time. There is no way a cleaning staff could clean a whole school in an hour. What about week on/week off. Get a really good run at a week's work and have a pack of revision and worksheets for the following week to go home on Fri. No online needed at home.
New group comes in the next Mon and any Covid will be dead after the weekend. Same week's work done as group A, same pack on Fri

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

There should be guidance from the department and infrastructure support, full stop.

As someone pointed out, we're talking about children here, and their educational needs are important. Minister Foley should be out there, visibly working her arse off to get schools what they need as we're facing into this situation. Yet I see other Ministers are out there commenting in her job capacity when it's not their place.

Teachers not knowing what platform to use and how to use it at this stage is insane to me; but so then too is the lack of a cohesive plan and support from the DES. If I think about it too long it really písses me off.

I'm not sure I agree remote learning can't or won't work for primary. I've said it many times already but I have friends and family abroad who's children are doing well in these situations. It's not ideal, but hopefully it comes to a short end especially as vaccinations roll out. My kids own rural school has the software in place, and both kids and teachers and parents are ready to go if needed. There wasn't much to it. Parents do need to come through with more involvement than what happened by some earlier in the year. Basically tldr: everyone needs to work together and be willing to do what it takes to make this work-it's not forever.

Biggest issue by far is the lack of a formal, centralised and graduated plan. DES issuing a document telling us to be ready isn't a plan. That's why you have such a hog wash, mish mash approach across the education sector. Alot of teachers don't have a work laptop. Each teacher should have one as standard.

Access at home for students as also a huge issue. No need for bells and whistles. Think a chalk and talk type approach but using technology. The simpler it is, the more willing pupils and indeed their parents will be to engage and try to work their way through.

All this is a moot point anyway as even this morning on Morning Ireland, Helen McEntee was on again telling us schools will be open on the 11th. Question has to be asked though why was the Minister for Justice on the radio telling us about schools?

Norma's dept issued a tweet yesterday telling us about the extended holidays but the comments were disabled. That tells its own story.

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

I think it’s coming back to bite them on the xxs now. I fear they are so far down that particular rabbit hole that they won’t consider any other option and we will end up with remote learning - with each school trying to do it’s best.

Ironic thing is if you go back to the reopening schools document that was issued at the end of July blended learning is referred to quite alot. Since seems to have been totally abandoned.

lulublue22

JimmyVik wrote: »

DES should have been getting a plan for all this in place last summer. They couldnt be bothered and have since, in cahoots with the government tried to bury their heads in the sand.

This is the bit that annoys me the most. Children need an Education my eye. If they were seriously concerned with children's education they would have used that time to have contingency plans in place. Seriously no one thought hang on we are in the middle of a global pandemic with the best will in the world we may not be able to keep schools open. What can we do if we can’t. It’s pure bull.

Icyseanfitz

lulublue22 wrote: »

I think it’s coming back to bite them on the xxs now. I fear they are so far down that particular rabbit hole that they won’t consider any other option and we will end up with remote learning - with each school trying to do it’s best.

I honestly think we are back the 11th as normal regardless of how bad it is, look at how they are keeping creches and early years open as normal from the 6th

JimmyVik

I work for a company with about 250 employees.
We have a tech team of 8 highly skilled people, with the latest in tools and technology at their disposal, who are flat out keeping us up and running and communicating with each other and our clients.
Our clients have their own teams on their side, when they have issues on their side.
And we struggle. We get there in the end but those tech support guys are flat out all the time.

Our local school has one guy who has to do his normal teaching job, and who isnt very tech savvy who was sent on a training course, who has to service a staff of about 30 teachers or so and several hundred children.

khalessi

JimmyVik wrote: »

Our local school has one guy who has to do his normal teaching job, and who isnt very tech savvy who was sent on a training course, who has to service a staff of about 30 teachers or so and several hundred children.

That would be us too. One guy does everything and he has no background in IT.

KathleenGrant

khalessi wrote: »

That would be us too. One guy does everything and he has no background in IT.

Well hardly, anyone i know working in IT would be crazy to take a teaching job.

wirelessdude01

JimmyVik wrote: »

I work for a company with about 250 employees.
We have a tech team of 8 highly skilled people, with the latest in tools and technology at their disposal, who are flat out keeping us up and running and communicating with each other and our clients.
Our clients have their own teams on their side, when they have issues on their side.
And we struggle. We get there in the end but those tech support guys are flat out all the time.

Our local school has one guy who has to do his normal teaching job, and who isnt very tech savvy who was sent on a training course, who has to service a staff of about 30 teachers or so and several hundred children.

**furiously has hand up in the air**

I'm that guy in our school. Laptop, sound, screen, whatever doesn't work, a note is sent up to my room seeking assistance. The amount of emails I got from colleagues during lockdown one with a message from one of their parents about some form of problem was huge. One lesson I did learn from my private sector days is keep the help and advice very simple as if something goes wrong or a device dies as a result of your advice then you are at fault. We had one parent send a bill to the school for a new laptop due to an old one dying as a result of help my colleague gave. Now the parent pretty much got told to do one but....

lulublue22

JimmyVik wrote: »

I work for a company with about 250 employees.
We have a tech team of 8 highly skilled people, with the latest in tools and technology at their disposal, who are flat out keeping us up and running and communicating with each other and our clients.
Our clients have their own teams on their side, when they have issues on their side.
And we struggle. We get there in the end but those tech support guys are flat out all the time.

Our local school has one guy who has to do his normal teaching job, and who isnt very tech savvy who was sent on a training course, who has to service a staff of about 30 teachers or so and several hundred children.

This was something I really struggled with - emails up to 10pm I can’t open the word doc , I can’t open a pdf file, I can’t upload , I can’t do x’ y and z. I’m on an ipad , an android phone, an iphone etc etc. Emh I haven’t a clue I’ve spent the last two weeks figuring out how to set up the learning platform , how to do voice overs , how to download work correct it online and reupload it to your child’s a/c with pointers and tips , how to cater for the dyslexic children in my class , cater for the different abilities without making it obvious , how to link to external sites , add giffs etc etc I’m ICT ‘d out. While keeping my own children on track with their work.

wirelessdude01

KathleenGrant wrote: »

Well hardly, anyone i know working in IT would be crazy to take a teaching job.

Me to as well. 10 years in IT/telecoms.

KathleenGrant

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Me to as well. 10 years in IT/telecoms.

You are a teacher, no?

wirelessdude01

KathleenGrant wrote: »

You are a teacher, no?

Someone who retrained and yes a teacher.

mirrorwall14

Many people don’t try. Full stop. There I said it. A large cohort dont try. And for once I include people of all ages, students, teachers, parents the whole lot.

It is incredible to me the amount of people who just do the hands up ‘I can’t’ the minute anything untoward happens with ICT.

My google classroom doesn’t work. What have you tried? Nothing

My internet isn’t working.... you literally just emailed me

The PDF doesn’t open. What have you tried? Nothing

Or my best recently, ‘Ms I was told you were helping with ICT issues. My internet doesn’t work in school’. I follow up with how long it’s going on etc. And they come back with having told no one officially, not rang wriggle, done nothing about it and it’s been THREE YEARS. Like wtaf? This is a student we are sending into the workforce.....

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

This was something I really struggled with - emails up to 10pm I can’t open the word doc , I can’t open a pdf file, I can’t upload , I can’t do x’ y and z. I’m on an ipad , an android phone, an iphone etc etc. Emh I haven’t a clue I’ve spent the last two weeks figuring out how to set up the learning platform , how to do voice overs , how to download work correct it online and reupload it to your child’s a/c with pointers and tips , how to cater for the dyslexic children in my class , cater for the different abilities without making it obvious , how to link to external sites , add giffs etc etc I’m ICT ‘d out. While keeping my own children on track with their work.

I was like that at the beginning of lockdown one, didnt mind cutting people some slack but quickly copped on as some were just taking the mick. Give an inch, take a mile comes to mind. You'd have to wonder how some adults survive in the real world but also how ill prepared some of our older students are for what is coming down the tracks at them. There will be no mention of wellbeing when they fcuk up at work because they didn't listen or read their instructions properly.

lulublue22

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Many people don’t try. Full stop. There I said it. A large cohort dont try. And for once I include people of all ages, students, teachers, parents the whole lot.

It is incredible to me the amount of people who just do the hands up ‘I can’t’ the minute anything untoward happens with ICT.

My google classroom doesn’t work. What have you tried? Nothing

My internet isn’t working.... you literally just emailed me

The PDF doesn’t open. What have you tried? Nothing

Or my best recently, ‘Ms I was told you were helping with ICT issues. My internet doesn’t work in school’. I follow up with how long it’s going on etc. And they come back with having told no one officially, not rang wriggle, done nothing about it and it’s been THREE YEARS. Like wtaf? This is a student we are sending into the workforce.....

Honestly I found the expectation that I could / should solve all ICT problems a bit much. It was just assumed it was my responsibility.

Leftwaffe

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Many people don’t try. Full stop. There I said it. A large cohort dont try. And for once I include people of all ages, students, teachers, parents the whole lot.

It is incredible to me the amount of people who just do the hands up ‘I can’t’ the minute anything untoward happens with ICT.

My google classroom doesn’t work. What have you tried? Nothing

My internet isn’t working.... you literally just emailed me

The PDF doesn’t open. What have you tried? Nothing

Or my best recently, ‘Ms I was told you were helping with ICT issues. My internet doesn’t work in school’. I follow up with how long it’s going on etc. And they come back with having told no one officially, not rang wriggle, done nothing about it and it’s been THREE YEARS. Like wtaf? This is a student we are sending into the workforce.....

It’s actually unbelievable. From both staff and students. It baffles me how some staff just refuse to try and figure out an issue they’re having themselves. Maybe it’s the fact they know one or two other helpful teachers will just do it quickly for them. IT is a huge part of education now, just learn the basics!

As for students, the are good at playing games etc but ask them to share a PowerPoint or word document and you can forget it. Even if you show them they will have forgotten in about 10 minutes. Some are good but the vast majority are rubbish tbh.

mirrorwall14

lulublue22 wrote: »

Honestly I found the expectation that I could / should solve all ICT problems a bit much. It was just assumed it was my responsibility.

Totally agree on that and there is a MASSIVE need for a proper ICT person in every school for several hours a week or full time in the biggest schools but there is google before you need to contact someone.

However one of the best things our school did was unstructured ICT check ins at lunchtime. A bunch of us were on most days and staff dropped in for support. Even as someone advanced I learnt lots of little titbits both for ICT and Teaching and learning with ICT and also helped loads way quicker than over and back email exchanges. First thing everyone learnt was share screen and that sped things up enormously. I loved it. And it was like the staffroom which was sorely missed

glack

My personal favourite was the emails from parents that their child couldn’t do X Y or Z because it didn’t work. I’ll ask did they watch the instructional video (the video I probably spent 2 hours making with, this is how it looks on iOS/android/laptop variations). And the reply I get is “there was a video?” Or “oh no I didn’t watch that. Should I?”

Definitely have a greater appreciation for those working in IT support!!

Deeec

lulublue22 wrote: »

This was something I really struggled with - emails up to 10pm I can’t open the word doc , I can’t open a pdf file, I can’t upload , I can’t do x’ y and z. I’m on an ipad , an android phone, an iphone etc etc. Emh I haven’t a clue I’ve spent the last two weeks figuring out how to set up the learning platform , how to do voice overs , how to download work correct it online and reupload it to your child’s a/c with pointers and tips , how to cater for the dyslexic children in my class , cater for the different abilities without making it obvious , how to link to external sites , add giffs etc etc I’m ICT ‘d out. While keeping my own children on track with their work.

I believe DES should be providing more help to teachers on setting up equipment and software issues.

Also Teachers cant be solving every IT issue a child has at home. It should be made clear that parents are responsible for this. Most simple issues re access etc could be solved by googling the issue.

Where I work I see people constantly contacting the IT dept re very small issues which they could sort out themselves. My point is some people are just lazy and will contact the teacher re the issue and use this as an excuse. It should be made clear that teachers are only providing the education service - any IT issues that certain families have are completly seperate to teaching.

JimmyVik

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Many people don’t try. Full stop. There I said it. A large cohort dont try. And for once I include people of all ages, students, teachers, parents the whole lot.

It is incredible to me the amount of people who just do the hands up ‘I can’t’ the minute anything untoward happens with ICT.

My google classroom doesn’t work. What have you tried? Nothing

My internet isn’t working.... you literally just emailed me

The PDF doesn’t open. What have you tried? Nothing

Or my best recently, ‘Ms I was told you were helping with ICT issues. My internet doesn’t work in school’. I follow up with how long it’s going on etc. And they come back with having told no one officially, not rang wriggle, done nothing about it and it’s been THREE YEARS. Like wtaf? This is a student we are sending into the workforce.....

I would be fairly advanced in IT. Ive been a software developer for decades. Ive built robots, ive helped all manner of people with various it problems.
Quite often I have to go to our IT department to get stuff working for me.
And its not from lack of trying. Things are complicated and asking one nominee to go on a course and deliver an IT service to hundreds of people as well as do another job on top of that is just taking the P.


And then there are the things that I reckon I could fix myself, but there is a chance i might fcuk it up and make things worse so i wont touch it.
That is where most students and parents will be coming from.

mirrorwall14

JimmyVik wrote: »

I would be fairly advanced in IT. Ive been a software developer for decades. Ive built robots, ive helped all manner of people with various it problems.
Quite often I have to go to our IT department to get stuff working for me.
And its not from lack of trying. Things are complicated and asking one nominee to go on a course and deliver an IT service to hundreds of people as well as do another job on top of that is just taking the P.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I totally agree we need proper IT departments too and proper support. But there is a cohort who will not try IMO