Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Boggles

Inquitus wrote: »

Case in my Son's school, child last attended on Thurs last week, tested positive I guess today or yesterday, HSE says no further action required, no one else to quarantine or be tested. My son has close contact with this child, not sure I can agree with the HSE on this one.

It's quite simply.

There is little to no surveillance of any sort of description going on in any school.

We learned tracing fell apart at 4% positivity, probably even before that, it's now at 6.5%.

God only knows how many cases are being missed in the past 2 weeks.

wirelessdude01

Inquitus wrote: »

They also play maskless on the playground, and congregate a small amount on the way in and out of school.

They don't ask about that if/when they make contact with the school. To/from school and outside are not considered at all.

irishblessing

techdiver wrote: »

I can understand older kids can do it, but what about 6 and 4 year olds? Kids with ASD etc? What then? It's just not a runner with younger kids in my opinion. Also, not every parent can WFH (unfortunately), so this is not feasible across the board.

Personally, I'm ok. I can work from home and have a flexible (to an extent) employer. many employers will not allow this leeway to employees. If I think of my extended group of friends (20+ people), I am the only one working from home full time, one more has "some" working from home, whereas the rest either work in jobs that require them on site or have employers that will not allow working from home. in many cases both parents work outside the home.

I can afford extra resources, but as you say yourself, you have 3 laptops in the house. How many households can afford that? What about households with 3, 4 or 5+ kids?

I find these discussions to be always myopic and people can't see past their own situation and can't empathise with others. It's the same with attitudes towards restrictions. Restrictions are completely necessary, but we must balance everything.

I understand not everyone has their own device, but it seems most kids have their own these days for games and apps etc. For those that don't, the government should fund the schools to loan equipment. This is what happened in the schools in the US. They also loaned out wifi hotspots and all the books.

The downside to people not having a stay at home or wfh parent, grandparent or minder who can cover, is that someone has to leave the workforce. And more often this is women unfortunately. I saw an article about it from CNN last week.

More restrictions and shutdowns may be necessary so there may not be another option other than remote learning. In the local paper today front page is an article saying the hospital has trebled it's coronavirus patients in the past 5 days. They are very concerned...

This is why the government should have had more plans and support in the works for schools. It was always going to go this way.

LittleBrick

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (primary level).

Close all schools on November 30th. Nationwide level 5 lockdown for 3 weeks, to be dropped to level 3 on December 21st.

Teachers continue teaching online. 3x30 minute lessons a day. Sample timetable:

Junior and Senior Infants Maths: 9:00-9:30
First and Second Class Maths: 9:30-10:00
Third and Fourth Class Maths: 10:00-10:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Maths: 10:30-11:00

Junior and Senior Infants English: 11:00-11:30
First and Second Class English: 11:30-12:00
Third and Fourth Class English: 12:00-12:30
Fifth and Sixth Class English: 12:30-13:00

Junior and Senior Infants Gaeilge: 13:00-13:30
First and Second Class Gaeilge: 13:30-14:00
Third and Fourth Class Gaeilge: 14:00-14:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Gaeilge: 14:30-15:00

Children who receive support would have their support classes timetabled around these times by their support teacher.
Work is assigned to be done after each lesson so the children can work on that while waiting.
By grouping it by classes, it should near eliminate the need of more than one device, as most siblings are not in the same class bracket (some are, I know).
Teachers can choose to work from the school or from home, depending on their circumstances regarding internet/childcare etc.

SusanC10

LittleBrick wrote: »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (primary level).

Close all schools on November 30th. Nationwide level 5 lockdown for 3 weeks, to be dropped to level 3 on December 21st.

Teachers continue teaching online. 3x30 minute lessons a day. Sample timetable:

Junior and Senior Infants Maths: 9:00-9:30
First and Second Class Maths: 9:30-10:00
Third and Fourth Class Maths: 10:00-10:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Maths: 10:30-11:00

Junior and Senior Infants English: 11:00-11:30
First and Second Class English: 11:30-12:00
Third and Fourth Class English: 12:00-12:30
Fifth and Sixth Class English: 12:30-13:00

Junior and Senior Infants Gaeilge: 13:00-13:30
First and Second Class Gaeilge: 13:30-14:00
Third and Fourth Class Gaeilge: 14:00-14:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Gaeilge: 14:30-15:00

Children who receive support would have their support classes timetabled around these times by their support teacher.
Work is assigned to be done after each lesson so the children can work on that while waiting.
By grouping it by classes, it should near eliminate the need of more than one device, as most siblings are not in the same class bracket (some are, I know).
Teachers can choose to work from the school or from home, depending on their circumstances regarding internet/childcare etc.

Do you think 3 weeks is long enough ? I thought that I had read somewhere that min 4 weeks would be needed to see a real difference in numbers etc

LittleBrick

SusanC10 wrote: »

Do you think 3 weeks is long enough ? I thought that I had read somewhere that min 4 weeks would be needed to see a real difference in numbers etc

Three weeks before level 3. Opening Christmas week would still leave most businesses closed by choice anyway, spending Christmas with families etc. Schools would be closed for 5 in total - three online teaching, two Christmas holidays. Perhaps additional restrictions like a continued closure of wet pubs/pubs in general to ensure no unnecessary mixing on the likes of Stephen's Day, etc.

It's only my personal opinion, but a hell of a lot better than doing nothing.

SusanC10

LittleBrick wrote: »

Three weeks before level 3. Opening Christmas week would still leave most businesses closed by choice anyway, spending Christmas with families etc. Schools would be closed for 5 in total - three online teaching, two Christmas holidays. Perhaps additional restrictions like a continued closure of wet pubs/pubs in general to ensure no unnecessary mixing on the likes of Stephen's Day, etc.

It's only my personal opinion, but a hell of a lot better than doing nothing.

It's definitely a lot better than doing nothing. All of your plan incl the previous post.

HerrKuehn

LittleBrick wrote: »

Three weeks before level 3. Opening Christmas week would still leave most businesses closed by choice anyway, spending Christmas with families etc. Schools would be closed for 5 in total - three online teaching, two Christmas holidays. Perhaps additional restrictions like a continued closure of wet pubs/pubs in general to ensure no unnecessary mixing on the likes of Stephen's Day, etc.

It's only my personal opinion, but a hell of a lot better than doing nothing.

Anything like that would have a hugely negative impact on businesses. If there was to be any full lockdown it would be better to be over xmas which as you say many businesses would be shut anyway.

LittleBrick

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Anything like that would have a hugely negative impact on businesses. If there was to be any full lockdown it would be better to be over xmas which as you say many businesses would be shut anyway.

I see your point, but people won't listen over Christmas. If it was the run up to Christmas and sold as "Save Christmas, Act Now", people may be more open to following the restrictions.

techdiver

irishblessing wrote: »

I understand not everyone has their own device, but it seems most kids have their own these days for games and apps etc. For those that don't, the government should fund the schools to loan equipment. This is what happened in the schools in the US. They also loaned out wifi hotspots and all the books.

The downside to people not having a stay at home or wfh parent, grandparent or minder who can cover, is that someone has to leave the workforce. And more often this is women unfortunately. I saw an article about it from CNN last week.

More restrictions and shutdowns may be necessary so there may not be another option other than remote learning. In the local paper today front page is an article saying the hospital has trebled it's coronavirus patients in the past 5 days. They are very concerned...

This is why the government should have had more plans and support in the works for schools. It was always going to go this way.

Do people actually believe that is going to happen across the board?

Unless the government announce a simultaneous amount of extra annual leave paid for by the state this is unworkable. If the schools close, peoples outgoings will not magically stop becoming an issue. In fact what could end up happening is those children, especially vulnerable ones will receive zero education during this time as their parents will have to work. Couple this with the inevitable grouping up of child minding amongst family and friends and you achieve the opposite of what is being intended...

It's just not as simple as saying - "Shur close the schools and all the parents who are already working at home can teach them." As for children with special needs, remote learning is not going to work.

It's measure like that, that will fuel the loony anti-lockdown/anti-mask crowd even further. We must fight the battles we can win. Also, the department of education released figures that stated infection numbers amongst school going aged children did not significantly increase from the summer months after the resumption of school. So the evidence (also backed by NPHET), points to schools not contributing to the rise in cases. So are we trusting the official figures from NPHET and the government or are we taking an à la carte approach to what we believe?

SusanC10

Personally, I believe and have done since August, that the Schools will be closed when the Hospitals and in particular ICU come under real pressure.

irishblessing

techdiver wrote: »

Do people actually believe that is going to happen across the board?

Unless the government announce a simultaneous amount of extra annual leave paid for by the state this is unworkable. If the schools close, peoples outgoings will not magically stop becoming an issue. In fact what could end up happening is those children, especially vulnerable ones will receive zero education during this time as their parents will have to work. Couple this with the inevitable grouping up of child minding amongst family and friends and you achieve the opposite of what is being intended...

It's just not as simple as saying - "Shur close the schools and all the parents who are already working at home can teach them." As for children with special needs, remote learning is not going to work.

It's measure like that, that will fuel the loony anti-lockdown/anti-mask crowd even further. We must fight the battles we can win. Also, the department of education released figures that stated infection numbers amongst school going aged children did not significantly increase from the summer months after the resumption of school. So the evidence (also backed by NPHET), points to schools not contributing to the rise in cases. So are we trusting the official figures from NPHET and the government or are we taking an à la carte approach to what we believe?

Well if you're asking me then, yeah... or at least I think it should. There isn't going to be a perfect plan. There's always going to be winners and losers, which is really shít to say but it is a shít reality. Now you have high risk children or children who are living with high risk family, and if they couldn't sort out homeschooling due to the issues we're talking about now, then they go in school and put themselves in danger. Or they have to be pulled out and parents are struggling the best they can. Can you imagine the stress? Some people and children are already losing out under the current scheme and lack of choice.

You also have teachers and school staff at high risk for the same reasons, and because of a lack of early planning and not providing enough ppe. There are reports of subs not taking work because of the danger. The government couldn't foresee this but we average folds on boards could? It's scandalous.

So reality is then if we need to shut down schools because the hospitals are in danger of being overrun, then again there are going to be those who will be fine, or thrive or become disadvantaged. We can try and look after as many people and offer as many supports and options as we can for families. Are we going to do that as a country? Where is the government with their forward thinking, innovative plans? It seems they don't have any. These "leaders" are a f-g disgrace.

I think SEN teachers should teach special needs students in the schools with very high protective measures in place.

Regarding your final paragraph, I think it's very much agenda driven and also a failure of testing and tracing giving a false picture. Other major studies down around the world and what we're seeing in real time as well paints a very different picture. If children aged 10 and older are known to contract and spread the virus "at least as well as adults do" (Mike Ryan, WHO) and WHO/Unicef recommends masks for younger children in certain situations (lack of SD) then why wouldn't they be hugely problematic.

combat14

LittleBrick wrote: »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (primary level).

Close all schools on November 30th. Nationwide level 5 lockdown for 3 weeks, to be dropped to level 3 on December 21st.

Teachers continue teaching online. 3x30 minute lessons a day. Sample timetable:

Junior and Senior Infants Maths: 9:00-9:30
First and Second Class Maths: 9:30-10:00
Third and Fourth Class Maths: 10:00-10:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Maths: 10:30-11:00

Junior and Senior Infants English: 11:00-11:30
First and Second Class English: 11:30-12:00
Third and Fourth Class English: 12:00-12:30
Fifth and Sixth Class English: 12:30-13:00

Junior and Senior Infants Gaeilge: 13:00-13:30
First and Second Class Gaeilge: 13:30-14:00
Third and Fourth Class Gaeilge: 14:00-14:30
Fifth and Sixth Class Gaeilge: 14:30-15:00

Children who receive support would have their support classes timetabled around these times by their support teacher.
Work is assigned to be done after each lesson so the children can work on that while waiting.
By grouping it by classes, it should near eliminate the need of more than one device, as most siblings are not in the same class bracket (some are, I know).
Teachers can choose to work from the school or from home, depending on their circumstances regarding internet/childcare etc.

not a bad idea .. 30 nov is too late need to lock down early to mid Nov to give businesses a chance to make money in run up to xmas

1205 cases today .. prob highest number here yet


Number of Covid outbreaks in schools doubled last week

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/number-of-covid-outbreaks-in-schools-doubled-last-week-39629514.html

HerrKuehn

LittleBrick wrote: »

I see your point, but people won't listen over Christmas. If it was the run up to Christmas and sold as "Save Christmas, Act Now", people may be more open to following the restrictions.

I think there will be a large number of people who will not follow the rules, even if it is to "save christmas". The government is trying to manage a delicate balancing act and it isn't as simple as just reducing the covid cases at all cost. They are trying to minimise deaths, damage to the economy, disruption to peoples lives etc. The cost will be measured at some point next year I suppose and the financial bill will come due next October in the budget. Those who have been insulated until now will feel a financial impact at the point.

Queried

Dr Glynn talking about how in March/April there was a notable decrease in the numbers of cars on the road and how despite the fact that there were restrictions put in place weeks ago. It might have something to do with the fact that about a million people are travelling into schools daily? Of course not all of those people are in cars, but of course there will continue to be traffic on the roads we long as schools are open.

HerrKuehn

Queried wrote: »

Dr Glynn talking about how in March/April there was a notable decrease in the numbers of cars on the road and how despite the fact that there were restrictions put in place weeks ago. It might have something to do with the fact that about a million people are travelling into schools daily? Of course not all of those people are in cars, but of course there will continue to be traffic on the roads we long as schools are open.

Also, most of those who can work from home are already doing it.

Smacruairi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Also, most of those who can work from home are already doing it.

Youre right. Damn it, if only we had a clue what happened at the start of this new curve.

ingo1984

The new restrictions in place won't have any impact on decreasing the numbers, same way its had no impact on Dublin numbers. Come November 10th the government will have to stop ignoring the elephant in the room. I imagine they already know this, and it's just a case if giving the schools enough time to plan ahead. Won't suit everyone and people won't like it, but cant please everybody.

SusanC10

Queried wrote: »

Dr Glynn talking about how in March/April there was a notable decrease in the numbers of cars on the road and how despite the fact that there were restrictions put in place weeks ago. It might have something to do with the fact that about a million people are travelling into schools daily? Of course not all of those people are in cars, but of course there will continue to be traffic on the roads we long as schools are open.

Agreed. The only reason either my Husband or I NEED to leave our house at the moment is to bring the Kids to/from school.

HerrKuehn

The cases were increasing since we opened up end of june/early july

https://ibb.co/j3K2FmM

The trend has continued as we have opened up more. If you look at the more detailed graph I posted you will see the trend was already well established long before schools opened.

Icyseanfitz

HerrKuehn wrote: »

The cases were increasing since we opened up end of june/early july

https://ibb.co/j3K2FmM

The trend has continued as we have opened up more. If you look at the more detailed graph I posted you will see the trend was already well established long before schools opened.

Thread closed, schools are safe, nothing to see here

HerrKuehn

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Thread closed, schools are safe, nothing to see here

Sorry if it doesn't suit the narrative but do you care to refute it?

HerrKuehn

Smacruairi wrote: »

Youre right. Damn it, if only we had a clue what happened at the start of this new curve.

Compare it to this selective graph, from smacruari above.

Icyseanfitz

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Sorry if it doesn't suit the narrative but do you care to refute it?

Not a bit, doesn't take a whole lot of deductive reasoning to understand why schools are dangerous with any sort of human contagious virus, we put more fecking effort into making them safe for foot and mouth disease than we have for covid.

Melanchthon

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I think there will be a large number of people who will not follow the rules, even if it is to "save christmas". The government is trying to manage a delicate balancing act and it isn't as simple as just reducing the covid cases at all cost. They are trying to minimise deaths, damage to the economy, disruption to peoples lives etc. The cost will be measured at some point next year I suppose and the financial bill will come due next October in the budget. Those who have been insulated until now will feel a financial impact at the point.

Don't you see that keeping schools open serves as a justification to those that ignore restrictions. For those that don't have children and even those that do the fact that the school environment with what 25 people in a room is apparently not a big risk means on a personal calculation some social interaction is not a big risk. It's not crazy either human contact is important arguably more important then a month or two of education, see Maslow's heirachy of needs.

Cluedo Monopoly

My kids secondary school have produced an online timetable to prepare them for remote learning. I think the kids will be home for November.

TTLF

Another case in My Girlfriends school.

We're both worried because she's a Prefect and deals w/ 1st-4th years, if shes a close contact, that's not a good sign considering we're trying to be careful with my health issues.

As for schools currently, It's mainly the same, just the 72 thing is fully gone and wiping desks/social distancing is less frequent.
But I have noticed traffic volumes increasing significantly going in towards my school compared to September.
Colleges aren't really open so it has to be schoolkids/teenagers. Or people going into work in town.
Lots of traffic coming into school via walking, cycling and cars whilst on my way in to school today.

appledrop

Dr. Colm Henry, Chief Clinical Officer for HSE has today stated that 80% of positive Covid cases at present have mild symptoms or are asymptomatic.

This is especially the case with young people.

FFS lads do you think the penny might finally drop that the schools are spreading this???????

Imagine if they actually did random testing in schools like Nursing Homes or Meat Factories what numbers would be like???

But not only are they not doing this they are actually dangerously ignoring genuine close contacts in schools + brushing it under the carpet.

facehugger99

SusanC10 wrote: »

Do you think 3 weeks is long enough ? I thought that I had read somewhere that min 4 weeks would be needed to see a real difference in numbers etc

Maybe we should shut down for 10 weeks just to be sure?

I mean, with the way teachers and children are dropping dead left, right and centre, it's the only sensible option.

wirelessdude01

https://twitter.com/dhubhda/status/1316767840016502787?s=19