Schools closed until February? (part 3)

irishblessing

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This reads like a government press release. We don't like you so we'll make everyone in school community suffer to appease some perceived distant slight. Parents please be aware that this possibly is the attitude of the department/government.

I actually can't believe that just happened.

meeeeh

political analyst wrote: »

This is the interview with Tony Holohan on the Late Late Show. As of now, it is available on the Player for 30 days.

https://www.rte.ie/player/series/the-late-late-show/SI0000001694?extraguid=PI000016213

17 minutes and 30 seconds into this recording of the interview, Holohan said he doesn't envisage schools staying closed after this mid-term break. He said the cases that have arisen in schools involved the virus being brought in by some pupils - as opposed to a school being the point-of-origin of an outbreak - and that close contacts of those pupils in schools are less likely to be infected than close contacts of those pupils in the community. Presumably, the wearing of masks, sufficient air-conditioning, the use of hand-sanitisers and the use of school discipline mean that Covid clusters are much less likely to occur in schools than in the community.

I think you are wasting your time. Anything Nphet say about the results in irish schools will be dismissed. A study that says infection increase because of schools has to be researched more and that different preventive measures were not looked at will be considered a proof that we should close schools immediately. What Northern Irish advisory group says for Northern Ireland will taken as proof Nphet are lying to us. All this to force unnecessary closure of schools because some people like to feel scared.

scrubs33

I think in many ways schools are victims of their own success. Having opened, stayed open and completed the first term the calls for extra safeguards etc will have less and less impact on the decision makers. After mid term there’s what, 7 weeks to Christmas. Even if the Dept came out and said they were to close on the 18th December that’s another term down and three weeks off to recover. I know within local FF politics the general perception is that the Minister has done a good job so I don’t expect any change in policy soon.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This reads like a government press release. We don't like you so we'll make everyone in school community suffer to appease some perceived distant slight. Parents please be aware that this possibly is the attitude of the department/government.

Well as posted few days ago our school made a point of stating that the unions are not representing their views. So I will rather listen to those who deal with my kids than to some union officials who made very good living opposing whatever is proposed.

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

Well as posted few days ago our school made a point of stating that the unions are not representing their views. So I will rather listen to those who deal with my kids than to some union officials who made very good living opposing whatever is proposed.

What views would they be?

meeeeh

Boggles wrote: »

What views would they be?

I posted this few days ago. It's from school newsletter:

The children are so very happy to be back at school and it is vital, not only for their learning but for their social skills and wellbeing that we continue to provide this safe haven for them.Our staff too, each and every one of us, want to be here in xxxx NS. We are making a conscious effort as a staff to shut out the ramblings of the media and some of our own spokespeople and just simply… get on with our job. If you hear people whinging on the media about closing schools, know that they are not speaking for the staff of this school.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

Well as posted few days ago our school made a point of stating that the unions are not representing their views. So I will rather listen to those who deal with my kids than to some union officials who made very good living opposing whatever is proposed.

Was it a principal who made that point? You'll very often find a very different viewpoint from an admin principal who sits behind a desk all day and a teaching principal who actually has to try to work through all the nonsense on a day to day basis.

Now I'm not trying to say that teacher unions get everything right but they havea job to represent their members. Same as the NPC represent their views to the media and also the ASSI. All these have quite narrow views that is limited to their perspective. The only common threD is that they all have a part to part to play in the wider school community.

Interestingly the ASSI released a statement the other day demanding that the govtput together some form of proper framework that schools would ave to adhere to with regards to when pods, whole class, whole year group, whole school have to be removed from the school building. As teachers we've been asking for this but as usual people misconstrue this as teachers looking for a back door to enable school closures rather than a path to ensure continuity of education while/when the inevitable above does occur.

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

I posted this few days ago. It's from school newsletter:

The children are so very happy to be back at school and it is vital, not only for their learning but for their social skills and wellbeing that we continue to provide this safe haven for them.Our staff too, each and every one of us, want to be here in xxxx NS. We are making a conscious effort as a staff to shut out the ramblings of the media and some of our own spokespeople and just simply… get on with our job. If you hear people whinging on the media about closing schools, know that they are not speaking for the staff of this school.

wirelessdude01

scrubs33 wrote: »

I think in many ways schools are victims of their own success. Having opened, stayed open and completed the first term the calls for extra safeguards etc will have less and less impact on the decision makers. After mid term there’s what, 7 weeks to Christmas. Even if the Dept came out and said they were to close on the 18th December that’s another term down and three weeks off to recover. I know within local FF politics the general perception is that the Minister has done a good job so I don’t expect any change in policy soon.

My dad would be a FF member and would think the same. I've stopped talking to him about school as I just get ignored. My Mrs just laughed the last time we were in his presence and said that I shouldn't be getting annoyed over it. Said that the general public don't care what the likes of us know is happening in our classes/schools.

meeeeh

Boggles wrote: »

OK I will pm you the whole letter if you want but I'm not posting it here because I want to keep some privacy. Let me know if you want it but I would appreciate that details are not shared. I would rather not do it but I do not lie.

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

I posted this few days ago. It's from school newsletter:

The children are so very happy to be back at school and it is vital, not only for their learning but for their social skills and wellbeing that we continue to provide this safe haven for them.Our staff too, each and every one of us, want to be here in xxxx NS. We are making a conscious effort as a staff to shut out the ramblings of the media and some of our own spokespeople and just simply… get on with our job. If you hear people whinging on the media about closing schools, know that they are not speaking for the staff of this school.

Once again as I said to you at the time, I have yet to hear someone who I know is currently a teacher say they want to close schools. However those of us currently 9r recently in the classroom know that things need to change. We have no confidence in the actual system to keep the schools functioning in a safe manner. Lack of proper testing tracking and tracing is one part. Department of education keeping things secret for minimum of 48hrs is another. There is constant erosion of confidence in those who are meant to keep our schools safe.

Whether you like or dislike the role of unions in all this they would be utterly dereliction of their duty to their members if they didn't raise their concerns. The usual platform is through direct dialogue, we wouldn't be aware of this and would only become aware when they need to raise publicly their concerns once their hasn't been sufficient acknowledgement or progress during said dialogue.

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

OK I will pm you the whole letter if you want but I'm not posting it here because I want to keep some privacy. Let me know if you want it but I would appreciate that details are not shared. I would rather not do it but I do not lie.

You're grand.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Was it a principal who made that point? You'll very often find a very different viewpoint from an admin principal who sits behind a desk all day and a teaching principal who actually has to try to work through all the nonsense on a day to day basis.

Now I'm not trying to say that teacher unions get everything right but they havea job to represent their members. Same as the NPC represent their views to the media and also the ASSI. All these have quite narrow views that is limited to their perspective. The only common threD is that they all have a part to part to play in the wider school community.

Interestingly the ASSI released a statement the other day demanding that the govtput together some form of proper framework that schools would ave to adhere to with regards to when pods, whole class, whole year group, whole school have to be removed from the school building. As teachers we've been asking for this but as usual people misconstrue this as teachers looking for a back door to enable school closures rather than a path to ensure continuity of education while/when the inevitable above does occur.

It's a principal but I doubt he would make it clear it was everyone in school agreeing with that position if it wasn't true.

I have no problems with asking for improvements and mistakes were made (hand sanitiser or some contact tracing), however you can't start every conversation with schools will have to close if we don't get x,y or z. The second problem I have that issues in schools are overblown, the official data dismissed because some are disappointed that schools didn't have to close after a month for political reasons. I think it is despicable to use children as a pawn to score points against government that people don't like.

irishblessing

scrubs33 wrote: »

I think in many ways schools are victims of their own success. Having opened, stayed open and completed the first term the calls for extra safeguards etc will have less and less impact on the decision makers. After mid term there’s what, 7 weeks to Christmas. Even if the Dept came out and said they were to close on the 18th December that’s another term down and three weeks off to recover. I know within local FF politics the general perception is that the Minister has done a good job so I don’t expect any change in policy soon.

They haven't all stayed open though... And there's been a lot of cases, clusters and quarantines.

Icyseanfitz

irishblessing wrote: »

They haven't all stayed open though... And there's been a lot of cases, clusters and quarantines.

not according to Norma our glorious and supreme overlord :rolleyes:

irishblessing

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

not according to Norma our glorious and supreme overlord :rolleyes:

Ha. Funny, I just ran across this on the FB group:

Páidí Ó Lionáird

Hi folks. Tá súil agam go bhfuil sibh go maith? Nuacht RTÉ/TG4 are looking for a spokesperson to interrogate the disparity between the figures as published by HSE/NPHET/DES and what your group states - either in person or anonymously. We can record in silhouette or you can record answers to specific questions on whatsapp/zoom/facetime or any other platform - AS-GAEILGE. Is féidir teagmháil a dhéanamh liom - on/off the record paidi.olionaird@rte.ie GRMA. Páidí Ó Lionáird

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

you can't start every conversation with schools will have to close if we don't get x,y or z.

Start conversation with simple "schools have to close to stop spreading infection".
Neither visors nor masks provide full protection.
Scientists have already established how R depends on schools.
It is pretty simple: if we have L5 lockdown - schools should be closed unconditionally.

Newbie20

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The government is very sympathetic to the complexities the current policy of maintaining open schools presents, but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of these unions, and sub-optimal outcomes in handling the corona issues on this front now result.

I think you might have meant to say “but is hamstrung by the disfunctional structures and legacies of this and of previous governments”

scrubs33

irishblessing wrote: »

They haven't all stayed open though... And there's been a lot of cases, clusters and quarantines.

Oh absolutely but in terms of how the whole episode is portrayed the take away message will be ‘schools stayed open’ or ‘the situation was well managed overall’

s1ippy

meeeeh wrote: »

I posted this few days ago. It's from school newsletter:

The children are so very happy to be back at school and it is vital, not only for their learning but for their social skills and wellbeing that we continue to provide this safe haven for them.Our staff too, each and every one of us, want to be here in xxxx NS. We are making a conscious effort as a staff to shut out the ramblings of the media and some of our own spokespeople and just simply… get on with our job. If you hear people whinging on the media about closing schools, know that they are not speaking for the staff of this school.

In other completely false things that are made up.

The syntax and grammar are a dead giveaway, and the fact that it fits your nonsense rhetoric. It's sad someone would fabricate this.

wirelessdude01

8 kids in a senior infant class year positive after the initial index case in a school in North Dublin.

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

Just the kids no teachers?

Three teachers now sent for testing.

Initially weren't considered close contacts but things change.

irishblessing

Larry2010 wrote: »

I suppose the point I am making is that if teachers think the schools are unsafe they need to demonstrate that the percentage of COVID cases in schools is significantly higher than the general population and other professions such as nurses and guards. So far I am not seeing it just speculation

And how do they do that when the testing and tracing system has failed and the testing of close contacts is not consistent.

Also it goes way beyond teachers thinking that. Parents do. That's why there's 115 thousand of us are part of a fb group in order to know what is really happening.

8k71ps

Larry2010 wrote: »

From looking up about 246 cases in schools so this equates to about 1-2 % cases since September. 55000 people have picked it up so far in Ireland so about 1% of the general population. I would think that percentage in schools is slightly higher than the general population but would be about the same percentage as most workplaces?

even in that 1-2% is a large portion of community transmission since kids see other kids and also go home to their parents, their family etc. Secondly the testing is extraordinarily lop sided, I've heard some instances where they test absolutely everyone in the class or absolutely noone at all despite the on the ground realities (all of course with an extraordinary time delay if one wanted to keep the schools open). Most other countries are indicating a massively higher positivity rate in schools, so either the department of education is the most competent educational body on the planet or the broken test and trace system isn't reporting them correctly.

irishblessing

Larry2010 wrote: »

Surely either a teacher or student would know that have Covid?

Is this a serious question.

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

Surely either a teacher or student would know that have Covid?

Of course they would. Teachers aren't meant to be told if there is a case in their class. They are only meant to be informed if they are considered a close contact. But yeah, a teacher should know.

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

My kids school has had 4 cases so far out of about 300 kids and teachers. This would be about 1% which would be inline with the general population. Teachers need to start talking in facts not speculating

Do you like responding to yourself?

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

Sorry I am just seeing speculation here not facts

Are you saying I'm making up about those 8 kids?

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

This is the same as every workplace. I think it’s got something to do with the GPDR.

Aren't you soooooooo clever.

s1ippy

The regularity with which new accounts are set up to post incendiary sh!t in this thread is pathetic.

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

No not saying that. All I am saying is that the percentage of cases in schools does not seem to be higher than other workplaces.

Have you forgotten to look at the cluster/outbreak report? Go have a look and come back in then.

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

Please send on the link?

I'm sure you can find it yourself.

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

The children are so very happy to be back at school and it is vital, not only for their learning but for their social skills and wellbeing that we continue to provide this safe haven for them.

Were your best times as a child in school? Mine were on summer holidays, at home playing with my friends.

After two weeks of no school we can arrange pods outside school.

I think your social skills get more practice during play time too than when in a class.

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

This is the same as every workplace.

For any other workplace current rule is: "You should work from home unless you are providing an essential service for which your physical presence is required."


Schools should be closed.

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

I would classify my child’s education as essential

Who will die if they delay their education for couple weeks or will learn at home?

meeeeh

s1ippy wrote: »

In other completely false things that are made up.

The syntax and grammar are a dead giveaway, and the fact that it fits your nonsense rhetoric. It's sad someone would fabricate this.

That's what you want believe because the opposite would would fry your little brain. You would have to admit that the not everyone in education thinks like you. NEPHET are accused of lying here too. It's arrogance of the stupid - they don't think like me so they must be lying.

s1ippy

No, "they clearly wrote that letter themselves so they're lying" is my thought process.

No principal would write what you claim it said in that newsletter, and nobody who is that poor at constructing a sentence would be able to oversee the running of a school.

I'd love if you sent it on in a PM but I doubt if you can.

Str8outtaWuhan

Larry2010 wrote: »

I would classify my child’s education as essential

but not essential enough to exercise your constitutional right to be their primary educator?:cool:

meeeeh

eagle eye wrote: »

Were your best times as a child in school? Mine were on summer holidays, at home playing with my friends.

After two weeks of no school we can arrange pods outside school.

I think your social skills get more practice during play time too than when in a class.

That were principal's words but sure you can organise whatever you want for yours. Education of my kids is important to me.

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

That's what you want believe because the opposite would would fry your little brain. You would have to admit that the not everyone in education thinks like you. NEPHET are accused of lying here too. It's arrogance of the stupid - they don't think like me so they must be lying.

Well I don't think NPHET are lying. They depend on figures to make assessments and it's not clear what's going on in schools. We've been a lot if secrecy as regards outbreaks in schools. We've seen a teacher demand that all the kids in her class be tested and not just one pod and the results showed she was right and the HSE were wrong.
There's no tracking. All school cases are being blamed on community transmission outside the school.
There is no definitive proof either way as to what's really going on.

Now I'm not sure you have a big enough brain to take all that in.
It's not easy to be agenda free either.

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

That were principal's words but sure you can organise whatever you want for yours. Education of my kids is important to me.

You talked about social skills and mire, this is what I'm talking about.
Education is hugely important of course but I'm questioning your impressions on social skills.

meeeeh

s1ippy wrote: »

No, "they clearly wrote that letter themselves so they're lying" is my thought process.

No principal would write what you claim it said in that newsletter, and nobody who is that poor at constructing a sentence would be able to oversee the running of a school.

I'd love if you sent it on in a PM but I doubt if you can.

Done. I will rely on your decency not to share it further.

meeeeh

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I don't think NPHET are lying. They depend on figures to make assessments and it's not clear what's going on in schools. We've been a lot if secrecy as regards outbreaks in schools. We've seen a teacher demand that all the kids in her class be tested and not just one pod and the results showed she was right and the HSE were wrong.
There's no tracking. All school cases are being blamed on community transmission outside the school.
There is no definitive proof either way as to what's really going on.

Now I'm not sure you have a big enough brain to take all that in.
It's not easy to be agenda free either.

So it's not just that you look into your hart and know how everyone feels, you also know exactly how tracking works. Your all-encompassing abilities amaze me.

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

What if the nurses guards and other essential professions took the same approach?

This is why they are essential - if we stop food industry or hospitals then somebody definitely will die. It is difficult to survive with no food and health services for the time of lockdown.

Larry2010 wrote: »

You can’t close the schools on speculation but only facts.

Does you religion prohibit you to scroll back 10-20 pages of this thread to have a look at what was already discussed?

Larry2010 wrote: »

As of now schools are as safe as other workforce’s in general.

And this is, of course, fact :cool:

Larry2010 wrote: »

The government will not close the schools and have committed to this.

Will see :mad:

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

So it's not just that you look into your hart and know how everyone feels, you also know exactly how tracking works. Your all-encompassing abilities amaze me.

Maybe you don't have the intelligence to take it all in. That's ok, there's many in the same boat.

If you go back through the main covid threads you'll see I also correctly predicted the figures for two weeks ago. I was questioned on that and explained the math and figures used.

Track and trace is very simple, it's just monotonous work collecting the data.

No good reason that they should have lost their way.

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

The only way I see schools closing is if the teachers strike

There are also public opinion and common sense.

meeeeh

eagle eye wrote: »

Maybe you don't have the intelligence to take it all in. That's ok, there's many in the same boat.

If you go back through the main covid threads you'll see I also correctly predicted the figures for two weeks ago. I was questioned on that and explained the math and figures used.

Track and trace is very simple, it's just monotonous work collecting the data.

No good reason that they should have lost their way.

I bet Nphet have you on speed dial to advise them.

Smacruairi

Thats me wrote: »

There are also public opinion and common sense.

Don't... Feed...

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Done. I will rely on your decency not to share it further.

Didn't you previously say the letters on the FB site could be typed up and faked by anybody? :pac:

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

Didn't you previously say the letters on the FB site could be typed up and faked by anybody? :pac:

Yes they could. We'll leave it at that.