Schools closed until February? (part 3)

irishblessing

Larry2010 wrote: »

Public opinion want them open

You don't speak for "public opinion." You only speak for yourself.

I want them open, with improved safety measures and a hybrid remote learning plan so that students, staff and families have the choice and support they need.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes they could. We'll leave it at that.

I'm sure you do want to leave it at that. Height of hypocrisy. :pac:

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

I would agreed with that. What I would not agree with is the call of a couple of individuals here just to close the schools.

Make it safe is the same as close it. The only way to ensure safety is to test each person every day before letting them into the school building. This is unlikely achievable.

Larry2010 wrote: »

At the end of the day covid will be with us for at least another year.

And how we will live with COVID depends on will we close schools during highest level of lockdown or not. Personally i would prefer L3 to L5 to have freedom of movement, but to have that we have to decrease R first. If schools will be closed, the R will drop faster and quality of my life will improve faster. Also i will have less chances to get infected myself. Opened schools are against my own interests.

Larry2010 wrote: »

Kids can’t miss another year of school.

They easily can.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

I'm sure you do want to leave it at that. Height of hypocrisy. :pac:

You can believe or not about the letter. That's irrelevant because it was just to point out not all school agree with union stance. It is however completely different to taking FB data at face value and thinking our policy should be changed on basis of that.

What I or anyone else posts here could be lie, all of it. You, me everyone else could be lying and we will still manage to argue for the next 150 pages. However when you use completely unverified data to discredit official numbers or proper journalism who have their sources and have to verify their information then it's easy to explain why Trump gets elected. That's not hypocrisy it's just basic common sense why we shouldn't act on something that that nobody has any idea how accurate it is.

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

basic common sense why we shouldn't act on something that that nobody has any idea how accurate it is.

It is normal for humans to act while having no precise and exhaustive information. They are using common sense and intuition for this. Yourself are doing this every day, every minute

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

I suspect you are one of those low achieving teachers we all remember from our childhood.

Even worse.. I am not a teacher at all!

Thats me

Larry2010 wrote: »

You remind me of the ‘computer says no’ character from the little Britain show

This is your personal problem which does not impact my wellbeing. I see no reason for myself to discuss it.

xhomelezz

Omg

meeeeh

Thats me wrote: »

It is normal for humans to act while having no precise and exhaustive information. They are using common sense and intuition for this. Yourself are doing this every day, every minute

However we should realise it is faulty. Sometimes it is ok to act on hunch, many countries did in spring with face masks, Ireland didn't.

However when you have two sets of data or information the verified one is more reliable and a lot more likely to be true. It's the same about vaccinations or school R number.

Separate issue is and the one that bugs me even more is to discredit proper journalism that costs money with something Betsy on internet said. I studied PR and marketing and did a bit of journalism studies (I never worked in any of those professions) and it horrifies me with how little questioning FB or Twitter are taken at a face value. You can believe something but you have to keep in mind it might not be true. I very passionately believe that and there is no difference weather someone is reviewing lipstick or counting covid cases in schools, you can not rely on that information.

wirelessdude01

Larry2010 wrote: »

Your negativity is very depressing. I would hate to be one of your students. It’s teacher like you that bring down teachers trying to do the right thing here

I always assumed that poster actually isn't a teacher. Maybe they can clarify.

wirelessdude01

Thats me wrote: »

Even worse.. I am not a teacher at all!

Oops. Buuurrrrrnnnnn

wirelessdude01

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/people/arid-40069220.html?type=amp&fbclid=IwAR1tvOmUwrw4pFLOQbN7jixV_wE_EBuBeAbWpusuSnP0bD9giyKyoKRBCNw&__twitter_impression=true

eagle eye

meeeeh wrote:

Separate issue is and the one that bugs me even more is to discredit proper journalism that costs money with something Betsy on internet said. I studied PR and marketing and did a bit of journalism studies (I never worked in any of those professions) and it horrifies me with how little questioning FB or Twitter are taken at a face value. You can believe something but you have to keep in mind it might not be true. I very passionately believe that and there is no difference weather someone is reviewing lipstick or counting covid cases in schools, you can not rely on that information.

I'm not in huge disagreement with you as regards social media sites but you can figure out pretty quickly whether the person is to be trusted or not.

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

However we should realise it is faulty. Sometimes it is ok to act on hunch, many countries did in spring with face masks, Ireland didn't.

However when you have two sets of data or information the verified one is more reliable and a lot more likely to be true. It's the same about vaccinations or school R number.

Separate issue is and the one that bugs me even more is to discredit proper journalism that costs money with something Betsy on internet said. I studied PR and marketing and did a bit of journalism studies (I never worked in any of those professions) and it horrifies me with how little questioning FB or Twitter are taken at a face value. You can believe something but you have to keep in mind it might not be true. I very passionately believe that and there is no difference weather someone is reviewing lipstick or counting covid cases in schools, you can not rely on that information.

Ireland didnt act on facemasks at the time, because there was a shortage and NPHET realised there would not be enough for medical staff if everyone bought them up. It wasnt until stock amounts stablisised that they started saying facemasks/coverings were beneficial.

byhookorbycrook

DES “ road map “ is still recommending visors as safe .

Thats me

meeeeh wrote: »

However we should realise it is faulty. Sometimes it is ok to act on hunch, many countries did in spring with face masks, Ireland didn't.

Was not it recommended to use face mask or better to avoid public places in Ireland? This is question of personal responsibility. I got the problem seriously, somebody didn't, somebody even now still denying the fact of existence of pandemy. It would be up to them if they would not participate in spreading of viruses and bring their potentially infected children into schools breaking all protective measures implemented by more responsible parents.

meeeeh wrote: »

However when you have two sets of data or information the verified one is more reliable and a lot more likely to be true. It's the same about vaccinations or school R number.

Evidence what i saw to the time telling me schools are significant factor in spreading infection. This is also in line with common sense.

meeeeh wrote: »

Separate issue is and the one that bugs me even more is to discredit proper journalism that costs money with something Betsy on internet said. I studied PR and marketing and did a bit of journalism studies (I never worked in any of those professions) and it horrifies me with how little questioning FB or Twitter are taken at a face value. You can believe something but you have to keep in mind it might not be true. I very passionately believe that and there is no difference weather someone is reviewing lipstick or counting covid cases in schools, you can not rely on that information.

Do you mean some particular proper publication disproving official stats or what?

xhomelezz

Larry2010 wrote: »

Your negativity is very depressing. I would hate to be one of your students. It’s teacher like you that bring down teachers trying to do the right thing here

It's not about negativity. Level 5 is a bit of joke as of now. If you wanna break chain of infections you have to limit any social contacts as much as possible! Most of retail is open, construction business etc., basically everything apart from pubs and hotels PLUS schools. Tbh I don't think that's gonna work, not in 6 weeks scenario. I'm not here to say close the schools, but ffs limit the amount of kids in at the same time, none of the schools can accommodate basic measures preventing infections, doesn't matter how much these measures getting tweaked out by department.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

You can believe or not about the letter. That's irrelevant because it was just to point out not all school agree with union stance. It is however completely different to taking FB data at face value and thinking our policy should be changed on basis of that.

What I or anyone else posts here could be lie, all of it. You, me everyone else could be lying and we will still manage to argue for the next 150 pages. However when you use completely unverified data to discredit official numbers or proper journalism who have their sources and have to verify their information then it's easy to explain why Trump gets elected. That's not hypocrisy it's just basic common sense why we shouldn't act on something that that nobody has any idea how accurate it is.

No one is taking anything at face value. As I've already pointed out, this is a group that has 115 thousand members and not once, ever, have I seen in the comments under the posts that it's false, fake news, or fabricated in any way. The comments do reflect however parents concern and alerting each other to other parents they know who have kids there or live nearby and haven't seen it yet.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want people to accept your "principle's letter" (with language I've never seen used by our principal or any other on that group of 115k members) as proof of anything to back your words up, then the letters posted publicly (which is more than you would do) should be good enough for you too.

xhomelezz

Larry2010 wrote: »

Totally agree. They should be kept open even if the classes were halfed and one week one and one week off. What I am saying it’s not good enough just to close the schools and leave the kids with nothing.

Well if things go really a*se way and schools will have to close, why there's no plan for distance learning? At the moment I can imagine schools are the only one business with the most of social contacts in Ireland, yet no back up plan, just nothing, keep the schools open as it is, is the best plan. Laughable imho.

MelbourneMan

xhomelezz wrote: »

At the moment I can imagine schools are the only one business with the most of social contacts in Ireland, yet no back up plan, just nothing, keep the schools open as it is, is the best plan. Laughable imho.

There is a general tendency to over simply virus spread into having an impact/not having an impact, or safe/unsafe, or this is safer than that therefore we should not be be prevented from doing this. etc.
But it cannot be looked at in this black and white manner.

The chain of transmission has many many links, and all contribute to the overall spread and R0. Individual factors have greater or lesser contributions, and also have different levels of importance to society in general. It is never true to say schools are or are not having an impact. Wherever people interface, there is an impact.

The task of the politicians is to weigh up the sum of all factors contributing to spread, and weigh up the the impact on society, health, and the economy of curtailing these activities to varying degrees, and balancing those two elements with the capability of the health service to handle the caseload.

The political decision has been taken that places schooling of children as a high priority continue in schools.

Thats me

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

DES “ road map “ is still recommending visors as safe .

This is not panacea, but better to have any protection than no protection at all.
The best protection would give combination of N95 mask + Visor. As far i uderstand this is global practice in health services during this pandemy. But this is not panacea. Visor is transparent for virus, but it prevent drops of other's liquids (for example salvia) to reach your eyes. Proper masks are filtering out up to 90% of viruses (no idea how i could ensure is my mask the proper one) and modern understanding this helps to at least decrease severity of illness in the case if got infected: nobody knows why, but it looks like the less amount of virus patient got while being exposed the milder subsequnces would be.

MelbourneMan

xhomelezz wrote: »

It's not about negativity. Level 5 is a bit of joke as of now. If you wanna break chain of infections you have to limit any social contacts as much as possible! Most of retail is open, construction business etc., basically everything apart from pubs and hotels PLUS schools. Tbh I don't think that's gonna work, not in 6 weeks scenario. I'm not here to say close the schools, but ffs limit the amount of kids in at the same time, none of the schools can accommodate basic measures preventing infections, doesn't matter how much these measures getting tweaked out by department.

Community transfer occurs wherever there is interraction of people. Whether that is in a school, shop, office, factory, public house, or whatever is rather incidental to determining the action to take. In each case, the importance and societal and economic impact put on each of these elements is the predominant influence on the decision making process guiding corrective action.

It is curious that the general population seems fixated on the locus of transmission. It is perhaps motivated and indicative of conscious or unconsious bias in the discussion by interested parties in preserving continuity in their own sector rather than a true analysis. But it is largely an irrelevant discussion, and misses the point.

In short, the where is, not quite, but almost by the way, in the determining of the restrictions to apply.

Modelling, experience, and indications, all point strongly towards the existing measures making a dramatic improvement to the situation over the next five and a half weeks.

Thats me

MelbourneMan wrote: »

But it cannot be looked at in this black and white manner.

I'm very agree with you! We should not look at it in this black and white manner. I just missing what you tried to say to us - should schools be closed on Level 5 or not?

irishblessing

xhomelezz wrote: »

Well if things go really a*se way and schools will have to close, why there's no plan for distance learning? At the moment I can imagine schools are the only one business with the most of social contacts in Ireland, yet no back up plan, just nothing, keep the schools open as it is, is the best plan. Laughable imho.

Just a little further up you have a fine example of an answer to your question from an article that was posted:
Ireland is now ranked last out of 36 OECD countries for investment in second level education.

Our government have not properly invested in our education sector for decades. They are seen as a means to end in regards to childcare to keep the economy going (that direct quote from government was posted here earlier). People in power year after year do not put their money where their mouths are and invest in education. They pontificate about how important education is to children (and it is) but they haven't backed that with forward thinking, planning, resources, money or respect. Meanwhile schools & classrooms will still need to close, teachers and students and other staff will still need to quarantine, and those at higher risk still need different support via remote education, and we need to reduce our class sizes with a blended learning plan in the middle of a pandemic in which an airborne respiratory virus is highly infectious. And we're packing them in like sardines without masks in primary.
Joke, so it is, I agree.

MelbourneMan

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This reads like a government press release. We don't like you so we'll make everyone in school community suffer to appease some perceived distant slight. Parents please be aware that this possibly is the attitude of the department/government.

Hello poster. If I have not been fully clear here, please let me clarify the misunderstanding in my post to which you refer. I dont for a moment mean to imply that there is any intention to make anyone suffer. My point was, that while it may hinder a minimising of any suffering, rather than being deliberate by either party, the it is the legacy of teacher's unions engagement with the department that is detrimental to constructive dialogue and handling of the current crisis in the schools arena.

irishblessing

MelbourneMan wrote: »

There is a general tendency to over simply virus spread into having an impact/not having an impact, or safe/unsafe, or this is safer than that therefore we should not be be prevented from doing this. etc.
But it cannot be looked at in this black and white manner.

The chain of transmission has many many links, and all contribute to the overall spread and R0. Individual factors have greater or lesser contributions, and also have different levels of importance to society in general. It is never true to say schools are or are not having an impact. Wherever people interface, there is an impact.

The task of the politicians is to weigh up the sum of all factors contributing to spread, and weigh up the the impact on society, health, and the economy of curtailing these activities to varying degrees, and balancing those two elements with the capability of the health service to handle the caseload.

The political decision has been taken that places schooling of children as a high priority continue in schools.

Yes, we all have ears so we've heard this speal by government already. If we wanted a repeat of propaganda we'd go to RTE player or YouTube.

Can you tell us what your "position of authority" is in the government?

thomasdylan

Thats me wrote: »

This is not panacea, but better to have any protection than no protection at all.
The best protection would give combination of N95 mask + Visor. As far i uderstand this is global practice in health services during this pandemy. But this is not panacea. Visor is transparent for virus, but it prevent drops of other's liquids (for example salvia) to reach your eyes. Proper masks are filtering out up to 90% of viruses (no idea how i could ensure is my mask the proper one) and modern understanding this helps to at least decrease severity of illness in the case if got infected: nobody knows why, but it looks like the less amount of virus patient got while being exposed the milder subsequnces would be.

N95 masks are used in ED, with Covid +ve patients and for areosolising procedures. It's normal surgical mask in hospitals otherwise.


I think one of the demands that ASTI polled for in their recent ballots for strike action was N95 masks for all teachers anmd students which just makes them look like they havent done any research on them at all.

irishblessing

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello poster. If I have not been fully clear here, please let me clarify the misunderstanding in my post to which you refer. I dont for a moment mean to imply that there is any intention to make anyone suffer. My point was, that while it may hinder a minimising of any suffering, rather than being deliberate by either party, the it is the legacy of teacher's unions engagement with the department that is detrimental to constructive dialogue and handling of the current crisis in the schools arena.

The government's inaction and lack of forward thinking, proper planning, and resource allocation together with the failure of the test & trace system is what is detrimental to the handling of the current crisis in the school arena. Please.

xhomelezz

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Community transfer occurs wherever there is interraction of people. Whether that is in a school, shop, office, factory, public house, or whatever is rather incidental to determining the action to take. In each case, the importance and societal and economic impact put on each of these elements is the predominant influence on the decision making process guiding corrective action.

It is curious that the general population seems fixated on the locus of transmission. It is perhaps motivated and indicative of conscious or unconsious bias in the discussion by interested parties in preserving continuity in their own sector rather than a true analysis. But it is largely an irrelevant discussion, and misses the point.

In short, the where is, not quite, but almost by the way, in the determining of the restrictions to apply.

Modelling, experience, and indications, all point strongly towards the existing measures making a dramatic improvement to the situation over the next five and a half weeks.

Lol man, I dunno what's your point or agenda or who pays you.

wirelessdude01

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello poster. If I have not been fully clear here, please let me clarify the misunderstanding in my post to which you refer. I dont for a moment mean to imply that there is any intention to make anyone suffer. My point was, that while it may hinder a minimising of any suffering, rather than being deliberate by either party, the it is the legacy of teacher's unions engagement with the department that is detrimental to constructive dialogue and handling of the current crisis in the schools arena.

So essentially we hold a grudge so will make people suffer. Thanks for that clarification from the govt.

irishblessing

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Modelling, experience, and indications, all point strongly towards the existing measures making a dramatic improvement to the situation over the next five and a half weeks.

That same modelling that predicted 10's of thousands of deaths early on? What (modern) experience of a global pandemic from a novel coronavirus?

And would the fact that 10,000 people fell through the tracing cracks last weekend help that agenda out? How about the constant moving goalposts of the definition of a close contact leading to many people not being tested. Would the failure of many who fail to appear to show for their tests also not skew that prediction to your benefit? How about the fact that one of the largest testing centres at UCD has closed and therefore the processing of tests there this weekend can not be done?

Why didn't all your modelling and experience and indications then tell you that we needed to beef up our health care system and our testing system then? It couldn't tell you that very obviously we need a blended remote learning plan for our citizens? Wow.

MelbourneMan

irishblessing wrote: »

That same modelling that predicted 10's of thousands of deaths early on? What (modern) experience of a global pandemic from a novel coronavirus?

And would the fact that 10,000 people fell through the tracing cracks last weekend help that agenda out? How about the constant moving goalposts of the definition of a close contact leading to many people not being tested. Would the failure of many who fail to appear to show for their tests also not skew that prediction to your benefit? How about the fact that one of the largest testing centres at UCD has closed and therefore the processing of tests there this weekend can not be done?

Why didn't all your modelling and experience and indications then tell you that we needed to beef up our health care system and our testing system then? It couldn't tell you that very obviously we need a blended remote learning plan for our citizens? Wow.

Thank you for your reply. You raise quite a number of points and questions here, and I shall reply to each presently.

wirelessdude01

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. You raise quite a number of points and questions here, and I shall reply to each presently.

Quick go look at your departmental briefing notes.

irishblessing

Funny/not funny: Independent's Daily Digest just landed in my inbox. Here are some bits to chew on:

-"Now the country is in lockdown, the tracing system has collapsed, a part of the testing system is closed, and the authorities have had to warn schools about defective hand sanitiser which is dangerous and had to be recalled.

-"Winter is approaching fast. Scientists are warning that Covid-19 outbreaks are likely to get worse, especially in regions that don't have the virus spread under control. Researchers predict the virus is going to have a heyday, with difficult months ahead."

So how does that jive with MelbourneMan's statement, "Modelling, experience, and indications, all point strongly towards the existing measures making a dramatic improvement to the situation over the next five and a half weeks."

Hmmm....

Teachers’ union ‘cannot be convinced’ schools will return after Halloween break
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/teachers-union-cannot-be-convinced-schools-will-return-after-halloween-break/ar-BB1alGpH?li=BBr5HCU

The general secretary of the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO) has raised his doubts that schools will return after the midterm Halloween break.

Speaking to Morning Ireland on Tuesday, Mr Boyle said that the Government’s approach to testing and tracing in schools was ‘shambolic’.

He warned that they now have eight or nine days to prove that schools could be safe.

Mr Boyle told the programme that the teachers’ unions are set to meet with the National Public Health Emergency Team (NPHET) on Tuesday where he said that concerns over data and exactly how many children and teachers had contracted the virus would be brought up.

‘Back in March the Government made the right decision to close schools, we worked so hard to reopen schools, but three months on I cannot be convinced by Micheal Martin’s comments last night that the children will be returning after Halloween to a safe school and of course it’s vital that their education continues, but it’s even more vital for their families that they will remain safe.’

On the same programme, Kieran Christie of the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland (ASTI) said that ‘what we are seeing on the ground is different from the pronouncements’.

Meanwhile, Michael Gillespie, general secretary of the Teachers Union of Ireland (TUI), told Today with Claire Byrne that rapid testing needs to be introduced to keep schools safe.

---

I fully support the unions on this as their stance makes my children and my family and my community safer.

blanch152

irishblessing wrote: »

Funny/not funny: Independent's Daily Digest just landed in my inbox. Here are some bits to chew on:

-"Now the country is in lockdown, the tracing system has collapsed, a part of the testing system is closed, and the authorities have had to warn schools about defective hand sanitiser which is dangerous and had to be recalled.

-"Winter is approaching fast. Scientists are warning that Covid-19 outbreaks are likely to get worse, especially in regions that don't have the virus spread under control. Researchers predict the virus is going to have a heyday, with difficult months ahead."

So how does that jive with MelbourneMan's statement, "Modelling, experience, and indications, all point strongly towards the existing measures making a dramatic improvement to the situation over the next five and a half weeks."

Hmmm....

Teachers’ union ‘cannot be convinced’ schools will return after Halloween break
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/uknews/teachers-union-cannot-be-convinced-schools-will-return-after-halloween-break/ar-BB1alGpH?li=BBr5HCU

The general secretary of the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO) has raised his doubts that schools will return after the midterm Halloween break.

Speaking to Morning Ireland on Tuesday, Mr Boyle said that the Government’s approach to testing and tracing in schools was ‘shambolic’.

He warned that they now have eight or nine days to prove that schools could be safe.

Mr Boyle told the programme that the teachers’ unions are set to meet with the National Public Health Emergency Team (NPHET) on Tuesday where he said that concerns over data and exactly how many children and teachers had contracted the virus would be brought up.

‘Back in March the Government made the right decision to close schools, we worked so hard to reopen schools, but three months on I cannot be convinced by Micheal Martin’s comments last night that the children will be returning after Halloween to a safe school and of course it’s vital that their education continues, but it’s even more vital for their families that they will remain safe.’

On the same programme, Kieran Christie of the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland (ASTI) said that ‘what we are seeing on the ground is different from the pronouncements’.

Meanwhile, Michael Gillespie, general secretary of the Teachers Union of Ireland (TUI), told Today with Claire Byrne that rapid testing needs to be introduced to keep schools safe.

---

I fully support the unions on this as their stance makes my children and my family and my community safer.

I think the teacher unions don't have a clue.

They have been asking for N95 masks which aren't used anywhere else except when treating patients.

They don't understand the statistics which show that schools are relatively low-risk compared to so many other workplaces that are still active and less important than education.

What is weird is that they are supposed to be the ones to educate the rest of us, yet they don't understand some things as simple as this.

blanch152

Thats me wrote: »

For any other workplace current rule is: "You should work from home unless you are providing an essential service for which your physical presence is required."


Schools should be closed.

Education is an essential service, therefore schools should be open.

Edit: Are there teachers prepared to say that education is not an essential service, as their unions have argued for decades that it is.

8k71ps

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the teacher unions don't have a clue.

They have been asking for N95 masks which aren't used anywhere else except when treating patients.

They don't understand the statistics which show that schools are relatively low-risk compared to so many other workplaces that are still active and less important than education.

What is weird is that they are supposed to be the ones to educate the rest of us, yet they don't understand some things as simple as this.

How many of those workplaces have had 0 capacity to work from home or not allowed the vunerable from leaving? Also I very much doubt that considering the vast majority of international evidence disagrees with your statement, schools are known to be a centre of the disease in most of these countries. Sure in South Korea if they detect even a single case they shut down the entire school immediately.

8k71ps

blanch152 wrote: »

Education is an essential service, therefore schools should be open.

Edit: Are there teachers prepared to say that education is not an essential service, as their unions have argued for decades that it is.

When they ask for the same access to masks and testing that essential services need they're non-essential, when they say they can't work in said conditions they're essential.

Thats me

blanch152 wrote: »

Education is an essential service, therefore schools should be open.

I know it is in the list of essential services. But should not be there.

blanch152 wrote: »

Edit: Are there teachers prepared to say that education is not an essential service, as their unions have argued for decades that it is.

What this status gives to them? Right to be exposed to infection?

wirelessdude01

blanch152 wrote: »

Education is an essential service, therefore schools should be open.

Edit: Are there teachers prepared to say that education is not an essential service, as their unions have argued for decades that it is.

I agree that education needs to continue. It also needs to happen in person, however I'll argue that changes will possibly need to be made to what is currently happening inorder to preserve in class education for all. I envisage these changes to be short in length but possibly having to be implemented numerous times.

Now don't go asking me what I'm suggesting as that has been argued about till the cows come home already.

What is essential is that we get numbers down to a manageable figure. I really do think further societal restrictions/changes will be needed to achieve this and education will probably be one of those 'services' that will need to adapt.

blanch152

Thats me wrote: »

I know it is in the list of essential services. But should not be there.



What this status gives to them? Right to be exposed to infection?

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

blanch152

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I agree that education needs to continue. It also needs to happen in person, however I'll argue that changes will possibly need to be made to what is currently happening inorder to preserve in class education for all.

Now don't go asking me what I'm suggesting as that has been argued about till the cows come home already.

What is essential is that we get numbers down to a manageable figure. I really do think further societal restrictions/changes will be needed to achieve this and education will probably be one of those 'services' that will need to adapt.

The Halloween and Christmas breaks will hopefully be sufficient to take the pressure off the schools. If longer breaks are needed, we can keep going into June and July next summer.

8k71ps

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

Why shouldn't they be given access to rapid testing and be allowed to have people work from home if it's so essential?

wirelessdude01

blanch152 wrote: »

The Halloween and Christmas breaks will hopefully be sufficient to take the pressure off the schools. If longer breaks are needed, we can keep going into June and July next summer.

This was already discussed on here. For various reasons this probably wouldn't be a runner.

Now you also seem to have deliberately misinterpreted what I was saying. I never suggested taking "breaks". Be very clear on that.

irishblessing

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

That is a disingenuous and inaccurate spin.

They have put their shoulders to the wheel, starting with doing their best to implement largely unworkable guidelines a mere 3 weeks before schools were to open. My kids school and it's teachers have done their absolute best with the shít support they have been "blessed" with.

It's not about being essential or not. It's about safety. I suspect you know this you just want to have your low blows. Why, is anybody's guess.

Thats me

8k71ps wrote: »

Sure in South Korea if they detect even a single case they shut down the entire school immediately.

Schools were closed for holidays when Korea was hit by covid and they simply didn't reopen their schools. AFAIR they started to open schools in May only.

irishblessing

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. You raise quite a number of points and questions here, and I shall reply to each presently.

I'm on the edge of my seat. :rolleyes:

joe40

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been the foundation stone of the union's payclaims for the last forty years, how education is essential to Ireland's future, now, when they are asked to put their shoulder to the wheel to back it up, they are suddenly not so essential.

In fairness the unions are asking for schools to be safer. Nobody including the vast majority of teachers want schools to close.
Education and school is a essential service in so many ways. Online lessons are a very poor alternative to face to face teaching.
I have done a few webinar training sessions and they are mind bogglingly boring, after about an hour I was taking in very little info.
The idea of kids listening into streamed lessons or pre recorded lessons is not feasible to any significant extent.
Maybe for well motivated kids with good access to technology, but many 1000s would be left behind.

8k71ps

joe40 wrote: »

In fairness the unions are asking for schools to be safer. Nobody including the vast majority of teachers want schools to close.
Education and school is a essential service in so many ways. Online lessons are a very poor alternative to face to face teaching.
I have done a few webinar training sessions and they are mind bogglingly boring, after about an hour I was taking in very little info.
The idea of kids listening into streamed lessons or pre recorded lessons is not feasible to any significant extent.
Maybe for well motivated kids with good access to technology, but many 1000s would be left behind.

As well poorer children are generally speaking the worst hit by covid in terms of spread so it's really a case of disadvantaging the poor anyways, just indirectly

irishblessing

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the teacher unions don't have a clue.

They have been asking for N95 masks which aren't used anywhere else except when treating patients.

I don't think you have a point here. The hospital environment isn't like anywhere else. The school environment isn't like anywhere else. But they both deserve to have proper safety precautions in place. If I was a teacher in a cramped classroom with people more likely to be asymptomatic and not tested as a close contact, at the least I would want to be in an N95, visor, and using a microphone...

They don't understand the statistics which show that schools are relatively low-risk compared to so many other workplaces that are still active and less important than education.

The data driving those statistics are seriously and dangerously flawed. That statement also blatantly ignores large studies done indicating the exact opposite, as well as more recent data. As we've been pointing out and discussing for weeks now.

What is weird is that they are supposed to be the ones to educate the rest of us, yet they don't understand some things as simple as this.

Just because you like your disingenuous low blows doesn't it make them valid.