Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

In other words we are doing fine in comparison to the rest of Europe.

Why bother :rolleyes: out of interest, have you set foot in an Irish classroom since reopening?

Icyseanfitz

irishblessing wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's a serious question or not.

"The mess" refers to the fact that the school environment is unsafe and not conducive to an uninterrupted education for our children.

The teachers, staff and students are not protected enough from a lack of PPE, to overcrowded classrooms, to lack of a hybrid remote learning plan, to complacency and last but not least a sham of tracking & tracing cases.

Teachers, staff and families who either themselves, their children or both are at high risk and have ZERO alternative options to educate their children while remaining safe at home.

Students and staff who become ill, or need to quarantine and there is no national plan b for them to continue their education at home or teach. Schools may now close at the higher levels of shutdown, and yet still- no national plan for how our children are to still be educated. Other countries have put their thinking caps on and their shoulders to the wheel and come up with plans that can ensure families and students have the best, safest options to choose from that work for them and in the face of closures or indeed delayed in person teaching altogether because outbreaks in the area are too high.
Our own uni's and various college courses have moved online. It's a disgrace this hasn't been delivered on a nationwide scale to all in Ireland.

As I've said before I have many family and friends in the US, Canada, and another close friend is in Mexico. These countries have all implemented this with FAR, far higher regional and population complexity. Our problem? Apathy, laziness, and a lack of imagination and forward thinking in government. I'm disgusted more than I can ever remember being tbh.

Fantastic post

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Why bother :rolleyes: out of interest, have you set foot in an Irish classroom since reopening?

My kids did. They are miraculously still alive and school is quite happy how things are going.

Of course nobody will start fb pages to state that or have anonymous letters from principals stating things are ok because scaremongering is so much more fun.

JDD

For the teachers on the thread...

2 scenarios for you:

(i) Say we have a circuit breaker four week Level 5 lockdown in the next two weeks. The purpose of which is to surpress infections down to a point where were can open at Level 2 for most of the Christmas period. Will you be comfortable teaching during that lockdown and if not, would you be uncomfortable to the point that you would be looking for your union to agree to strike action?

(ii) Say we continue to go up through the Levels. Level 3 for three weeks. That doesn't work. Whole country to Level 4 for three weeks and while it works a bit, its not enough to stop hospitals from reaching capacity. So we then go to Level 5, at some point in December, when it is generally accepted that Covid is much more widespread than it is now. For anyone that was comfortable at Scenario 1, would you now look for strike action?

Let me say, I'm not judging your reaction in any way. My personal view is that, because children tend to by asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, they do not shed as much virus when they are contagious and therefore teachers are in a better place than say if they were in a room with no PPE and 25 adults.

But I can't back that up with a peer reviewed study or anything, it's just a hunch. And if I was a teacher, even if I had the same hunch, I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk when it gets to the point that Covid is very widespread (say, the same as it was in early March). While I might be comfortable at Scenario 1, because things won't be too different then they are right now, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at Scenario 2. And even though I'm a working parent with a vested interest in keeping schools open I think I'd side with teachers if they opted for strike action at Scenario 2 (and perhaps even at Scenario 1).

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

My kids did. They are miraculously still alive and school is quite happy how things are going.

Of course nobody will start fb pages to state that or have anonymous letters from principals stating things are ok because scaremongering is so much more fun.

So you haven't and are basing school safety on your own bias.

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

So you haven't and are basing school safety on your own bias.

What are you basing it on? Independent verifiable research?

SusanC10

JDD wrote: »

For the teachers on the thread...

2 scenarios for you:

(i) Say we have a circuit breaker four week Level 5 lockdown in the next two weeks. The purpose of which is to surpress infections down to a point where were can open at Level 2 for most of the Christmas period. Will you be comfortable teaching during that lockdown and if not, would you be uncomfortable to the point that you would be looking for your union to agree to strike action?

(ii) Say we continue to go up through the Levels. Level 3 for three weeks. That doesn't work. Whole country to Level 4 for three weeks and while it works a bit, its not enough to stop hospitals from reaching capacity. So we then go to Level 5, at some point in December, when it is generally accepted that Covid is much more widespread than it is now. For anyone that was comfortable at Scenario 1, would you now look for strike action?

Let me say, I'm not judging your reaction in any way. My personal view is that, because children tend to by asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, they do not shed as much virus when they are contagious and therefore teachers are in a better place than say if they were in a room with no PPE and 25 adults.

But I can't back that up with a peer reviewed study or anything, it's just a hunch. And if I was a teacher, even if I had the same hunch, I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk when it gets to the point that Covid is very widespread (say, the same as it was in early March). While I might be comfortable at Scenario 1, because things won't be too different then they are right now, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at Scenario 2. And even though I'm a working parent with a vested interest in keeping schools open I think I'd side with teachers if they opted for strike action at Scenario 2 (and perhaps even at Scenario 1).

Not a Teacher and would be interested to hear Teachers thoughts but imo Schools will be closed if we get to Level 5 and rightly so.
They may even need to be closed in Level 4.
Personally, I feel that since earlier this week, keeping schools open come what may is no longer the same level of priority for the Government as previously.
Just my opinion.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

What are you basing it on? Independent verifiable research?

Working every day in a big post primary school, also have many friends and family working in education where clusters and cases are happening due to schools being unsafe at the moment.

But im sure you'll tell me im full of **** and that everything in schools is perfectly safe without having an ounce of ground level experience of what's happening on a day to day basis in schools right now.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

In other words we are doing fine in comparison to the rest of Europe.

Is that the bar set high, then?

Anyway, do you not know it's widespread in other eu countries too? (I just don't know anyone personally living elsewhere there, with kids).

FFS. Easy google search

https://www.europeandataportal.eu/en/impact-studies/covid-19/education-during-covid-19-moving-towards-e-learning

"A survey conducted by UNESCO concluded that most education systems, of the 61 questioned countries, implemented measures related to distance learning."

Icyseanfitz

JDD wrote: »

For the teachers on the thread...

2 scenarios for you:

(i) Say we have a circuit breaker four week Level 5 lockdown in the next two weeks. The purpose of which is to surpress infections down to a point where were can open at Level 2 for most of the Christmas period. Will you be comfortable teaching during that lockdown and if not, would you be uncomfortable to the point that you would be looking for your union to agree to strike action?

(ii) Say we continue to go up through the Levels. Level 3 for three weeks. That doesn't work. Whole country to Level 4 for three weeks and while it works a bit, its not enough to stop hospitals from reaching capacity. So we then go to Level 5, at some point in December, when it is generally accepted that Covid is much more widespread than it is now. For anyone that was comfortable at Scenario 1, would you now look for strike action?

Let me say, I'm not judging your reaction in any way. My personal view is that, because children tend to by asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, they do not shed as much virus when they are contagious and therefore teachers are in a better place than say if they were in a room with no PPE and 25 adults.

But I can't back that up with a peer reviewed study or anything, it's just a hunch. And if I was a teacher, even if I had the same hunch, I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk when it gets to the point that Covid is very widespread (say, the same as it was in early March). While I might be comfortable at Scenario 1, because things won't be too different then they are right now, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at Scenario 2. And even though I'm a working parent with a vested interest in keeping schools open I think I'd side with teachers if they opted for strike action at Scenario 2 (and perhaps even at Scenario 1).

As an SNA i would be quite happy to continue working at level 5 if they reduced class numbers by half, gave out correct ppe gear, gave SNAs some sort of guidelines and procedures as to how to do our jobs and keep our students and ourselves safe and improve the contact tracing/honesty around it.

I would also gladly help my students in a remote capacity if needed through ms teams etc.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

My kids did. They are miraculously still alive and school is quite happy how things are going.

Of course nobody will start fb pages to state that or have anonymous letters from principals stating things are ok because scaremongering is so much more fun.

I wonder if they were asymptomatic, and who else they might have spread it to that didn't have such a "miraculous" outcome.

Lillyfae

irishblessing wrote: »

Is that the bar set high, then?

Anyway, do you not know it's widespread in other eu countries too? (I just don't know anyone personally living elsewhere there, with kids).

FFS. Easy google search

https://www.europeandataportal.eu/en/impact-studies/covid-19/education-during-covid-19-moving-towards-e-learning

"A survey conducted by UNESCO concluded that most education systems, of the 61 questioned countries, implemented measures related to distance learning."

During school closures. Not now. From the link:

It is too early to judge whether a new hybrid educational system will emerge with both face-to-face and online classes, or the short-term preparation to online learning will result in poor performance and suggest going back to traditional methods. As the situation further progresses and more data on the topic is gathered, extensive analysis of the larger-scale impact of the pandemic on education can be conducted by experts in the field.

Lillyfae

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Working every day in a big post primary school, also have many friends and family working in education where clusters and cases are happening due to schools being unsafe at the moment.

But im sure you'll tell me im full of **** and that everything in schools is perfectly safe without having an ounce of ground level experience of what's happening on a day to day basis in schools right now.

It's quite clear that some schools are struggling and require further support, but others aren't and are managing the situation. Like I said, for those who are struggling, you need to be hammering down the Union's door right now. They are not "they", they're "you".

irishblessing

Lillyfae wrote: »

During school closures. Not now. From the link:

It is too early to judge whether a new hybrid educational system will emerge with both face-to-face and online classes, or the short-term preparation to online learning will result in poor performance and suggest going back to traditional methods. As the situation further progresses and more data on the topic is gathered, extensive analysis of the larger-scale impact of the pandemic on education can be conducted by experts in the field.

Yes now. That was an absolutely ridiculous, disingenuous post as per usual from you. You literally quoted the summary paragraph at the very end, which is referring to hindsight of the changes made to the education systems.

You completely skipped over all the rest of it, including:


From the link:

In order to contain the contagion, many countries have implemented restrictive measures to reduce gathering and formations of crowds. Schools are also affected and had to reduce their classes or close entirely. One can only imagine the impact when, at the peak of the crisis, almost 1.6 billion children in 195 countries worldwide could not use their classrooms. If school closures are extended for too long, there is a significant potential for loss of educational opportunities, but also a potential loss of human capital and diminished economic opportunities in the long-term. Fortunately, the closing of schools did not entirely stop education, although it changed it. To reduce the impact of closures, schools have been looking for alternative ways to provide access to education. On the side of home schooling, students and children are currently, wherever possible, remotely educated all over the world, using technology such as online courses, video classes, and electronic textbooks.

Almost 50% of the UNESCO surveyed education systems, across all income levels, are providing additional teacher trainings to properly prepare for distance teaching.

Changes in the Future

Nowadays, parents, students and teachers across Europe are adapting to the ‘new normal’ with education from a distance. As schools start reopening again, there are two time horizons against which changes can be observed. In the short-term, schools need to guarantee that proper hygiene and social distancing measures are undertaken, they need to create trust among parents to allow their children back in schools, and they need to consider possible learning losses and how to compensate for those. In the long term, possible permanent changes to the educational systems could be observed. Not only does this require adapting to the use of technology but – with growing volumes of data being created about the students’ behaviour and performance – it also forces schools to further consider the privacy and protection of the pupils’ personal data.

Icyseanfitz

Lillyfae wrote: »

It's quite clear that some schools are struggling and require further support, but others aren't and are managing the situation. Like I said, for those who are struggling, you need to be hammering down the Union's door right now. They are not "they", they're "you".

Unions have gone silent unfortunately. Its going to come down to parents at this stage. Everyone assumes educators are just looking for more time off etc.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

Is that the bar set high, then?

Anyway, do you not know it's widespread in other eu countries too? (I just don't know anyone personally living elsewhere there, with kids).

FFS. Easy google search

https://www.europeandataportal.eu/en/impact-studies/covid-19/education-during-covid-19-moving-towards-e-learning

"A survey conducted by UNESCO concluded that most education systems, of the 61 questioned countries, implemented measures related to distance learning."

Did you actually read your own link? Except the first two lines you managed to quote. Metrics for Ireland are relatively good and nowhere did say what kind of measures, central led or individual and very few countries are actually mentioned in any way outside data graphs (Norway, Sweden and Belgium). You can even go interactive map that shows you Irish kids have good access to computers, internet and quiet place to study. Not to mention this was written in June.

Don't post links that you don't even look at in hope that neither will anyone else.

scrubs33

Schools and teachers have lost the PR battle with regard to opening/staying open. There is no discussion in the media and there won’t be until level 5 starts getting mentioned again: for what it’s worth I think the highest we will go again is 4. We are coping in school here (just about) but will get through it and bask in the empty and self congratulatory platitudes from the Dept, NAPD, managerial bodies and all the other education partners/vested interests. Apologies for the rant but things here are fraying badly and there is 0 support in the offing.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

Did you actually read your own link? Except the first two lines you managed to quote. Metrics for Ireland are relatively good and nowhere did say what kind of measures, central led or individual and very few countries are actually mentioned in any way outside data graphs (Norway, Sweden and Belgium). You can even go interactive map that shows you Irish kids have good access to computers, internet and quiet place to study. Not to mention this was written in June.

Don't post links that you don't even look at in hope that neither will anyone else.

No, I didn't read it! FFS. I quoted from it exactly and extensively which you ignored.

What kind of measures you ask? Would you like me to do some more googling and prepare a report on all the possible and likely successful measures and email them to Norma and do her job for her? No problem. I'm not the one getting paid for it but sure why not. Some randomer on boards.ie must be satisfied. :rolleyes:

Yep June. Writing was on the wall even then. Imagine that.

Lillyfae

meeeeh wrote: »

Did you actually read your own link? Except the first two lines you managed to quote. Metrics for Ireland are relatively good and nowhere did say what kind of measures, central led or individual and very few countries are actually mentioned in any way outside data graphs (Norway, Sweden and Belgium). You can even go interactive map that shows you Irish kids have good access to computers, internet and quiet place to study. Not to mention this was written in June.

Don't post links that you don't even look at in hope that neither will anyone else.

Just what I was about to point out.

irishblessing

Lillyfae wrote: »

Just what I was about to point out.

Are you the poster who lives in Holland, or am I mixing you up with someone else?

Lillyfae

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Unions have gone silent unfortunately. Its going to come down to parents at this stage. Everyone assumes educators are just looking for more time off etc.

They are your unions! Your representation, chosen by you. If they are not doing what they're deployed to do, ie take your issues and fight for them then maybe a strike from the union is warranted. If these problems are shared by the majority of your colleagues then the sole purpose of the union is to take things further.

Lillyfae

irishblessing wrote: »

Are you the poster who lives in Holland, or am I mixing you up with someone else?

Yes, that's me.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

No, I didn't read it! FFS. I quoted from it exactly and extensively which you ignored.

What kind of measures you ask? Would you like me to do some more googling and prepare a report on all the possible and likely successful measures and email them to Norma and do her job for her? No problem. I'm not the one getting paid for it but sure why not. Some randomer on boards.ie must be satisfied. :rolleyes:

Yep June. Writing was on the wall even then. Imagine that.

My point us that your link doesn't say what Internet learning measures were implemented in other words Ireland had some sort online learning according to your link (or at least it doesn't single Ireland out as not having it).

I'm sure Norma will be delighted to hear from you.

Teacher2020

JDD wrote: »

For the teachers on the thread...

2 scenarios for you:

(i) Say we have a circuit breaker four week Level 5 lockdown in the next two weeks. The purpose of which is to surpress infections down to a point where were can open at Level 2 for most of the Christmas period. Will you be comfortable teaching during that lockdown and if not, would you be uncomfortable to the point that you would be looking for your union to agree to strike action?

(ii) Say we continue to go up through the Levels. Level 3 for three weeks. That doesn't work. Whole country to Level 4 for three weeks and while it works a bit, its not enough to stop hospitals from reaching capacity. So we then go to Level 5, at some point in December, when it is generally accepted that Covid is much more widespread than it is now. For anyone that was comfortable at Scenario 1, would you now look for strike action?

Let me say, I'm not judging your reaction in any way. My personal view is that, because children tend to by asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, they do not shed as much virus when they are contagious and therefore teachers are in a better place than say if they were in a room with no PPE and 25 adults.

But I can't back that up with a peer reviewed study or anything, it's just a hunch. And if I was a teacher, even if I had the same hunch, I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk when it gets to the point that Covid is very widespread (say, the same as it was in early March). While I might be comfortable at Scenario 1, because things won't be too different then they are right now, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at Scenario 2. And even though I'm a working parent with a vested interest in keeping schools open I think I'd side with teachers if they opted for strike action at Scenario 2 (and perhaps even at Scenario 1).

As things are presently, I would not be comfortable. I think the current attitude from the HSE and government is that they will keep schools open by hook or by crook. They don't actually care about making things safe for us all. They just want to be seen by the public to have been the amazing government that kept the schools open. If they gave us the proper resources and employed extra teachers to reduce class sizes then I would have been more than happy to do it. They threw so much extra to us in cleaning but gave us no extra manpower. Extra cleaning is useless if kids are piled into a classroom.
I did everything in my power to get my points across in the summer- I emailed the INTO, I emailed Joe McHugh, I emailed Norma Foley (who emailed back to say it wasn't her area and she would forward it on to the appropriate person!!! Who thought that the return to school wasn't the responsibility of the Minister for Education?!?) and I went on national radio. No one was willing to listen to me and now we are in a situation that schools will not be able to stay open safely. We would have had a better chance if the unions and government had listened to the people that are actually working on the ground.

jrosen

As an alternative perhaps schools should just close for peak illness months. Typical flu season and then work through the warmer months. Shift the school terms a little. Might help? At the moment we are coming into cold weather, where most kids are indoors alot more than they would have been for April - September.

irishblessing

Lillyfae wrote: »

Yes, that's me.

Do you know what the story is with remote learning where you are? Not sure if you're a teacher and or parent.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

My point us that your link doesn't say what Internet learning measures were implemented in other words Ireland had some sort online learning according to your link (or at least it doesn't single Ireland out as not having it).

I'm sure Norma will be delighted to hear from you.

She probably would. Somebody has to put forward the researched ideas, clearly. :rolleyes:

As for Ireland it's piece by piece, school by school. Some use MT's. Or Google classroom. Or Seesaw. Or an email. Or absolutely nothing at all.

Icyseanfitz

jrosen wrote: »

As an alternative perhaps schools should just close for peak illness months. Typical flu season and then work through the warmer months. Shift the school terms a little. Might help? At the moment we are coming into cold weather, where most kids are indoors alot more than they would have been for April - September.

Not a terrible idea, but the department will never do it, too much bloody work.

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Not a terrible idea, but the department will never do it, too much bloody work.

I think teacher unions and parents would be more of an issue. I'm not apologist for education department because they are pretty bad but our society is built around summer holidays. You have work places closing for couple of weeks in summer, people with their holiday homes, holidays booked in summer and there is much more to do then.

It wouldn't overly bother me but knowing how strong habits are it would be very hard to change.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

I think teacher unions and parents would be more of an issue. I'm not apologist for education department because they are pretty bad but our society is built around summer holidays. You have work places closing for couple of weeks in summer, people with their holiday homes, holidays booked in summer and there is much more to do then.

It wouldn't overly bother me but knowing how strong habits are it would be very hard to change.

Parents and unions (although i think our unions would go along with near anything at this stage) are the exact reason the department would never bother changing the school calendar, too much backlash, too much hassle and too much work.