New hot water cylinder recommendations

Redriddick

Evening ,
I need to get a new hot water cylinder, 200l ,I am thinking stainless as the 2 previous copper ones have not lasted.
What do ye recommend?
Twin coil needed for solid stove and oil

Sleeper12

Question that might help other plumbers to help you: why didn't the last two cylinders last?

Redriddick

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Question that might help other plumbers to help you: why didn't the last two cylinders last?

In an extremely hard water area, have now fitted a water softener. There is a hole in a coil which is filling the header tank and overflowing

John.G

One might associate a holed coil with low PH acidic water, I have seen a few coils covered in limestone but still water tight apart from transferring little heat and taking hours to heat the DHW cylinder.

Redriddick

John.G wrote: »

One might associate a holed coil with low PH acidic water, I have seen a few coils covered in limestone but still water tight apart from transferring little heat and taking hours to heat the DHW cylinder.

Must get a ph test strip and see

Dtp1979

Most manufacturers of stainless steel will void the warranty if the cylinder is used with artificially softened water

Redriddick

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Most manufacturers of stainless steel will void the warranty if the cylinder is used with artificially softened water

Am I better to stick to copper so?

Dtp1979

Redriddick wrote: »

Am I better to stick to copper so?

I’d go with grade 2 copper and water Softner. And don’t use your immersion

John.G

The PH strip or better again a water analysis might point the way to go, can you see the coil (or the last one) to see how heavily scaled up it is?, also if you were using a immersion then that element will scale up much faster due to very high element temperature.

Redriddick

John.G wrote: »

The PH strip or better again a water analysis might point the way to go, can you see the coil (or the last one) to see how heavily scaled up it is?, also if you were using a immersion then that element will scale up much faster due to very high element temperature.

Dont use the immersion at all, oil for half an hour .

Redriddick

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I’d go with grade 2 copper and water Softner. And don’t use your immersion

Thanks mate will have a look around and see where is best to get one

monseiur

Redriddick wrote: »

Evening ,
I need to get a new hot water cylinder, 200l ,I am thinking stainless as the 2 previous copper ones have not lasted.
What do ye recommend?
Twin coil needed for solid stove and oil

Not answering your question but asking another one - do you need a twin coil cylinder for oil & solid fuel, would single coil do ?
Not being a plumber I thought you could heat the cylinder off solid fuel stove by direct cylinder system and use the single coil off the oil boiler.
M.

Redriddick

monseiur wrote: »

Not answering your question but asking another one - do you need a twin coil cylinder for oil & solid fuel, would single coil do ?
Not being a plumber I thought you could heat the cylinder off solid fuel stove by direct cylinder system and use the single coil off the oil boiler.
M.

That's not possible, stove circuit must be open or you technically have a bomb in your house

Dtp1979

monseiur wrote: »

Not answering your question but asking another one - do you need a twin coil cylinder for oil & solid fuel, would single coil do ?
Not being a plumber I thought you could heat the cylinder off solid fuel stove by direct cylinder system and use the single coil off the oil boiler.
M.

Absolutely not. Has to be dual coil.

John.G

You can do it with a vented heat store (direct cylinder system) where the solid stove circulates the water directly around the cylinder, normally, the gas/oil fired would do likewise (direct) with two different tapping points but you could do it with a coil and also have a solar powered second coil, the DHW is then normally supplied by the mains water flowing directly through another coil.

monseiur

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Absolutely not. Has to be dual coil.

I beg to differ with you when you say ''that it has to be'' dual coil
A solid fuel stove with boiler has to be plumbed into an open vented system.
You can heat the water in the cylinder (using basic gravity) without even a single coil in the cylinder. Fact normally called a direct cylinder system
To heat the same cylinder using, say, an oil boiler the cylinder would need one coil for this purpose. Fact.

monseiur

Redriddick wrote: »

That's not possible, stove circuit must be open or you technically have a bomb in your house

Can you explain how could this be.
A stove with boiler has to be plumbed into an open vented system.
As I have explained elsewhere it is possible to heat the water in a cylinder connected to solid fuel stove boiler without having a coil fitted. With a dual coil it is possible to heat the same cylinder with say an oil or gas boiler and say solar panels.

Wearb

monseiur wrote: »

I beg to differ with you when you say ''that it has to be'' dual coil
A solid fuel stove with boiler has to be plumbed into an open vented system.
You can heat the water in the cylinder (using basic gravity) without even a single coil in the cylinder. Fact normally called a direct cylinder system
To heat the same cylinder using, say, an oil boiler the cylinder would need one coil for this purpose. Fact.

What's possible and what's best and usual practice are different things.
If you hadn't finished with the word "fact" I would not even have replied to this. It created a confrontational tone to your post.

monseiur

Wearb wrote: »

What's possible and what's best and usual practice are different things.
If you hadn't finished with the word "fact" I would not even have replied to this. It created a confrontational tone to your post.

Apologies moderator, my post was not meant to be confrontational.
M.

Wearb

monseiur wrote: »

Apologies moderator, my post was not meant to be confrontational.
M.

Thanks. I guessed as much. That's why I didn't reply in bold lettering.

Dtp1979

monseiur wrote: »

I beg to differ with you when you say ''that it has to be'' dual coil
A solid fuel stove with boiler has to be plumbed into an open vented system.
You can heat the water in the cylinder (using basic gravity) without even a single coil in the cylinder. Fact normally called a direct cylinder system
To heat the same cylinder using, say, an oil boiler the cylinder would need one coil for this purpose. Fact.

No chief, it has to be dual coil. Unless the cooker is 80 years old and has a bronze boiler then any modern stove with a steel boiler will rot. I’m assuming it hasn’t a bronze boiler and the stove heats the radiators too.
There are the more expensive options of heat genies etc but that’s making things complicated.

John.G

The thing to remember with the above (re monseiur post) is that the hot water in the cylinder forms the primary circuit and cannot be used for washing/showers etc, it will/should also contain inhibitor etc to prevent corrosion in the boiler stove and/or in a gas or oil fired boiler if these are heating this primary water directly as well and in the whole heating system including radiators and UFH if installed, these systems will generally but not always have a separate circulating pump. The DHW is heated by running mains water through a coil in the cylinder.

Dtp1979

John.G wrote: »

You can do it with a vented heat store (direct cylinder system) where the solid stove circulates the water directly around the cylinder, normally, the gas/oil fired would do likewise (direct) with two different tapping points but you could do it with a coil and also have a solar powered second coil, the DHW is then normally supplied by the mains water flowing directly through another coil.

I have never seen anything like this before?

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I have never seen anything like this before?

I think some heat stores work something like that, but not sure.

John.G

I think they are popular on the continent, if you google "maxipod" you will get a idea of how they work.

also put maxipod in the boards search box, above.

Dtp1979

John.G wrote: »

I think they are popular on the continent, if you google "maxipod" you will get a idea of how they work.

also put maxipod in the boards search box, above.

Ah yea I’ve seen them. I think it’s only over complicating the op’s issue though

Redriddick

Thanks for all the comments, dual coil cylinder there already so going with the same again. Yes stove heats rads too.
Just as aside I plumbed the whole house in 2004 when I built it. I'm not a plumber and dont claim to be but I think I have a fairly good grasp on these things.

John.G

This what you don't want to see.

ditpaintball

I'm not a plumber, but about to get a re-plumb done on a house.

For a stove pipework, have you looked at nrgzone heatlink?

Also, Joule do a "Wellmaster" stainless steel tank. Apparently it is ticker to last longer in hard water areas?

Dtp1979

ditpaintball wrote: »

I'm not a plumber, but about to get a re-plumb done on a house.

For a stove pipework, have you looked at nrgzone heatlink?

Also, Joule do a "Wellmaster" stainless steel tank. Apparently it is ticker to last longer in hard water areas?

No it’s to protect against well water. Well water will erode stainless steel welds.

Redriddick

ditpaintball wrote: »

I'm not a plumber, but about to get a re-plumb done on a house.

For a stove pipework, have you looked at nrgzone heatlink?

Also, Joule do a "Wellmaster" stainless steel tank. Apparently it is ticker to last longer in hard water areas?

There are several incarnations of pipe manifold for stove pipework, systemlink, heatsink heat hero etc

Redriddick

So, I'm back. Still haven't got around to changing cylinder but am going to do so over the next few weeks.
Still thinking of going for the dual coil copper 60x18.
I have got a new magnaclean filter I'm going to fit on the return to the oil boiler too.

Dtp1979

Redriddick wrote: »

So, I'm back. Still haven't got around to changing cylinder but am going to do so over the next few weeks.
Still thinking of going for the dual coil copper 60x18.
I have got a new magnaclean filter I'm going to fit on the return to the oil boiler too.

It’d be pointless fitting the filter unless you powerflush the heating system first.

Redriddick

Dtp1979 wrote: »

It’d be pointless fitting the filter unless you powerflush the heating system first.

Thanks, yep powerflush will be done. I will fit.the new cylinder, add cleaning chemicals, and powerflush. Refill and add inhibitor

Dtp1979

Redriddick wrote: »

Thanks, yep powerflush will be done. I will fit.the new cylinder, add cleaning chemicals, and powerflush. Refill and add inhibitor

What machine are you using for the powerflush?