Covid 19 Part XXV-44,159 ROI (1,830 deaths) 21,898 NI (598 deaths) (13/10) Read OP

Gadgetman496

shocksy wrote: »

Just like FF and the spectacular f*ck up they caused with the financial crash, they're going down the route of another monumental f*ck up with this pandemic. After today, and ignoring the advice of NPHET, if things do get worse in the coming weeks they will have a huge amount to answer for and should never ever be in government again and FG won't be much better. Everyone congratulating Leo for tonight, it was only a few weeks ago he would of been public enemy number one. How people soon forget. And it will be the same when our health service goes to sh!t and the very same people calling Leo a hero tonight will be calling for his and the governments heads. Going against public health advice is a very bad move. As for the economy, we could just keep borrowing to some extent. Yes many businesses will go under and cause hardship for families but that's unfortunately life, same way it will happen in other countries. The main priority needs to be eradicating this virus. People bounce back and supports can be put in place. New businesses will open up. That's the way of life, always has been and always will be. We bounced back after the last recession when businesses crumbled. There's always someone new out there waiting to open up a new business.

MrMusician18

retro:electro wrote: »

Leo is saying all the right things here. Can’t fault a single thing he’s said so far. Sensible, solid points with clear delivery. NPHET have massively pissed off the public with their stunt yesterday evening. Loved how Leo said it’s well for them recommending level 5 when they won’t have to suffer the consequences of being on social welfare. Although he was very diplomatic, it’s about time someone stuck it to them.

You can confirm the source of the leak?
Oh wait, no you can't.

Goldengirl

CruelSummer wrote: »

He gave a great interview. His points are valid and reasonable. Would the public have supported nphets recommendation to level 5? The implication that our borrowing costs would go up immediately as a result of it...Money doesn’t grow on trees & it was an experimental suggestion re ‘circuit breaker’ lockdown.

"Money doesn't grow on trees ".....that will be even more trite when we have to lockdown before Christmas, if this doesn't get under control soon.
Biggest few weeks according to retail group are the 3 weeks in December which net 30% of the average years takings .
What if locking down now for 4 weeks would have saved December for everyone ?

quokula

ShooterSF wrote: »

Watching Vradkar's interview why was he asking NPHET what to tell businesses that had to close? How is that in the remit of a public health advisory board?

Isn’t this just the system working as intended? NPHET made a recommendation based solely on public health. The government took that on board and weighed it up against economic and other concerns, and decided on a compromise.

Nobody embarrassed themselves, nobody needs to resign, nobody didn’t do their job properly or shouldn’t be able to work together in future.

I don’t agree with the government’s decision, but I can understand that they were in a very difficult position no matter what they did. And now that it’s made, I only hope it proves to be correct for all of our sakes.

Arghus

gilmour wrote: »

I swore to myself months ago that i'd never post in this thread but i can't help but chime in here. I'm in agreement with everything you're saying. That "leak" last night did not come from Nphet or Holohan, in fact i'd be willing to bet a few quid that it was Varadkar himself.

What puzzled me about his interview tonight was his "they'll not do that again" attitude coming from the very man who was at a Gala in Washington only to be briefed in very similar abrupt circumstances that something had to change immediately. But because he was the Taoiseach and not sniping from the shadows he arranged an immediate intervention that was broadcast to the nation within hours that set the country into a blind panic with runs on the supermarkets. Was he wrong at the time? No, absolutely not. But did that experience vanish from his memory? Or is it because he is absolutely loving the position of being in the shadows spraying the political football like Pirlo in his prime with his "What about if we took Belgiums approach?" "International travel within a fortnight should happen" musings on twitter....

What does he benefit from it? He has the other clowns head on a spike for the next 3 weeks while Nphet are now completely and utterly demeaned in similar fashion to how Trump torched Fauci and the CDC in the states.

He is an arrogant self serving ****.

If I was being overly fair to both parties I think I can understand the impasse to an extent.

NPHET's remit is to give advice solely focused on public health. That's their role. All other considerations are not their concern. So from a public health perspective to advise for an immediate escalation to level 5 makes sense. A sledgehammer is the only thing that is going to squash these numbers. I see no conflict between them recommending an immediate level 5 and their primary role. If you want to bring the numbers down and protect the health service - and you don't have to think of anything else, because it's not your role to do so - you can only, in good conscience, recommend this approach.

The government has to think of another countless amounts of considerations, this is inevitably going to bring them into conflict with the advice NPHET gives. All those things Leo listed off this evening on Claire Bryne are all real. The government has a lot on its plate. Conflict between that and NPHET's - justifiable - monomania on public health is going to arise.

But, I'm not sure, if I buy the whole it was just sprung on us line. Maybe it was. But if it came as a shock to them - their main defence, as far as I can see - then that's damning enough as it is and shows they haven't been paying much attention. The situation has been clearly deteriorating now for quite some time and it's not as if NPHET haven't been sounding the alarm. The words, tone and public messaging out of Dr. Glynn and, particularly, Professor Nolan have been crystal clear for weeks now: this is getting worse and it can't go on like this. NPHET have been hamstrung for quite a while now, having to always sing from the same hymn sheet and never to be seen differing from the dithering political decisions for fear of upsetting the whole show. I don't doubt for a second that behind closed doors their message has been a lot less diluted.

People have amazing, truly amazing faith on here, that the government are making the right call. Okay then, I hope - sincerely - that they are right and that my gut feeling is totally wrong. I will be delighted to be wrong. But, first, ask yourself one question - Since this government took power name one previous decision the government has taken up to this point which has proved to be the right one or hasn't later had to be amended or revised?

Goldengirl

eleventh wrote: »

Whoever leaked it should be sacked anyway. It's not something that should happen again. Enough fear going around without adding to it.

Stuff leaking from government sources all day every day ...so you say sack em !

Dank Janniels

Michael Martins message completly overshadowed by Leo's under the bus throwing of Tony H.

Strumms

Dank Janniels wrote: »

Michael Martins message completly overshadowed by Leo's under the bus throwing of Tony H.

I’d love if Dublin west at the next general election just said ENOUGH and fired Leo off a two fingered salute... never mind as a political figure as a human he’s just really really a disgusting and terrible individual. I’ve never actually hated a politician, disliked a good few but this fffffffffffff.

Goldengirl

stockshares wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ZaraKing/status/1313213362432606211?s=19

Download here
https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/ba4aa0-letters-from-the-cmo-to-the-minister-for-health/#october

But who leaked it really, does anyone know ?

Happydays2020

Goldengirl wrote: »

But who leaked it really, does anyone know ?

Which journalist had the leak?

speckle

3 options... nephet/a singular member or government/minister or civil servant or actually four nephet and the government both or even unknown persons. Very quick leak.

Goldengirl

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

I find it interesting that people are so quick to believe it was NPHET and not politicians responsible for last night's leak. Didn't realize people had become so trusting of the latter, especially ones that have form for leaking information, as well as pretending they're not in government making decisions at any given opportunity. Their game is politics after all.

Leo certainly is playing a bold statregy, if cases and hospitalizations continue to go on an upward trend, despite national level 3 restrictions and we do have to go into next level restrictions, he will be in a difficult position, with a sense of only havint delayed the inevitable and with possible great cost. Like someone else mentioned, I hope it works.

Leo will then come out with spin that they were trying to save the public the pain of lockdown but due to rising cases and hospitalisations it is now unavoidable and isn't it better that they gave the National Plan a whirl rather than wasting it and just going straight to level 5 ? !
And he'll let MM break the bad news on the day..

Goldengirl

fritzelly wrote: »

Was there a press conference?

Apparently so, 9.30 on the news channel, but Claire Byrne was on at the same time , and had Leo on slating NPHET , so Donnelly and Pascal were no match for that .
Couldn't have done it better if they planned it

Arghus

Goldengirl wrote: »

Leo will then come out with spin that they were trying to save the public the pain of lockdown but due to rising cases and hospitalisations it is now unavoidable and isn't it better that they gave the National Plan a whirl rather than wasting it and just going straight to level 5 ? !
And he'll let MM break the bad news on the day..

I think you have predicted the future there with depressing accuracy.

Happydays2020

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-localised-covid-19-solutions-not-lockdown-1.4372677?mode=amp

Jack Lambert makes some very good points in this article. And indeed a lot of what people here have been saying. Politely gets in a few digs at the media and some of the experts they use and very much at NPHET (and their so called expertise).

I suggested previously that NPHET should be disbanded and there should be a dedicated and resourced COVID division in Dept of Health - perhaps it is better to do this within Department of the Taoiseach which has been a strategy used in the past to ensure priority. We need to manage now and we need to manage into the future.

The status quo cannot continue. It is in no ones interest that the public health experts have lost the dressing room.

Goldengirl

speckle wrote: »

If you are inferring that I am naive enough to believe anything without back up data and research from anybody, including Paul Reid or the government etc. you have got me wrong.


All of the above that you posted re staff I know well. Yes, you are right re the HSE need to take a lead role and do much, much better. But that does not stop me, thinking ahead, creating ideas and forward planning. However, there is only so much one ordinary person like myself can do, and I have been trying my best since January.



It is really about my post stating there is a need, and yours for the posting the mistakes made and the obstacles to that, so ordinary people here know the issues, which they can bring to the social/media , their TD's or family members abroad, if we don't talk about it, no solution will be found and to hell with them/staff being here for any wave.:eek:



Regarding my examples, possibly you did not read all the links and only looked at the video. I included a research paper on the fully functionally 130 bed ICU, that yes, it was set up in a car park. Whether it is used for covid or non covid patients, well that's a choice. See my post on for example Kerry university Hospital re covid and covid separation, in this country.


And here is the video were the guy in charge discusses a little bit about it.
Sweden@2mins. florida@21mins, bahrain@42 mins, ICU field hospital @51mins, @1hr08mins. And yes, on their corona committee in Bahrain was an Irish guy, Prof. Martin Corbally


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-6Gf2iDJvM

I didn't infer anything .
I have no argument with what you say .
Annoyed that people still believe that man when all he has done is duck and dive throughout and now Leo carrying on in a nasty style reminiscent of Boris and Trump .
That is all .
Also , yes Martin Corbally is one of the good guys , shows the quality of staff that have been taken by other countries .

Goldengirl

gilmour wrote: »

I swore to myself months ago that i'd never post in this thread but i can't help but chime in here. I'm in agreement with everything you're saying. That "leak" last night did not come from Nphet or Holohan, in fact i'd be willing to bet a few quid that it was Varadkar himself.

What puzzled me about his interview tonight was his "they'll not do that again" attitude coming from the very man who was at a Gala in Washington only to be briefed in very similar abrupt circumstances that something had to change immediately. But because he was the Taoiseach and not sniping from the shadows he arranged an immediate intervention that was broadcast to the nation within hours that set the country into a blind panic with runs on the supermarkets. Was he wrong at the time? No, absolutely not. But did that experience vanish from his memory? Or is it because he is absolutely loving the position of being in the shadows spraying the political football like Pirlo in his prime with his "What about if we took Belgiums approach?" "International travel within a fortnight should happen" musings on twitter....

What does he benefit from it? He has the other clowns head on a spike for the next 3 weeks while Nphet are now completely and utterly demeaned in similar fashion to how Trump torched Fauci and the CDC in the states.

He is an arrogant self serving ****.

This ...totally agree .

moonage

Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE

The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.

Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent PCR testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.

Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

https://unherd.com/2020/10/covid-experts-there-is-another-way/

Goldengirl

moonage wrote: »

Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE

https://unherd.com/2020/10/covid-experts-there-is-another-way/

Ah yes that extreme theoretical epidemiologist rises again , the one that impressed so many on Prime Time a few weeks ago , talking utter tripe .

ToddDameron

So while ignoring guidelines is being attributed to the rise in cases, Leo decides to publicly undermine the people making the guidelines. Genius.

speckle

moonage wrote: »

Dissenting scientists issue Covid-19 herd immunity declaration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE

https://unherd.com/2020/10/covid-experts-there-is-another-way/

Unlike other posters here, who obviously did not listen to all of the above video, which is longer than the time they took to post a negative reaction I did, even though I really wanted to go to bed.


As a high risk person in more than one way, (I am also the person in the tiny minority who might get infected more than once!)I agree with the strategy as long as the details are put in place for high risk people, and we have enough hospital bed space for the under 60s, a minority of who will become unwell.
It at least needs to be discussed openly, as an option.


If I survived on high dose immunosuppressants before and managed to live my life around that in normal times without the whole country worried I might get chickenpox or other nasty stuff.



I think I would prefer this option, than rolling lock downs and restrictions, which makes a life just about getting by, rather than living.



I would rather at least to hear about my friends and familys interesting escapades, even if I can't join in, then hear about how worried they are about everything.


More papers research papers are starting to be recently published on community immunity, in geographic areas as having been possible obtained, but it is more than that, it is truest/tried and tested form of public health that these epidemiologists are talking about, and we should at least listen to them to see if this may be a path for Ireland before out right objecting.



I think they touch on in the video most of the objectors points, that have made us afraid of trying this avenue. Courage not fear. Nite all.

Gael23

Makes the stay and spend scheme not very useful

patnor1011

speckle wrote: »

Unlike other posters here, who obviously did not listen to all of the above video, which is longer than the time they took to post a negative reaction I did, even though I really wanted to go to bed.


As a high risk person in more than one way, (I am also the person in the tiny minority who might get infected more than once!)I agree with the strategy as long as the details are put in place for high risk people, and we have enough hospital bed space for the under 60s, a minority of who will become unwell.
It at least needs to be discussed openly, as an option.


If I survived on high dose immunosuppressants before and managed to live my life around that in normal times without the whole country worried I might get chickenpox or other nasty stuff.



I think I would prefer this option, than rolling lock downs and restrictions, which makes a life just about getting by, rather than living.



I would rather at least to hear about my friends and familys interesting escapades, even if I can't join in, then hear about how worried they are about everything.


More papers research papers are starting to be recently published on community immunity, in geographic areas as having been possible obtained, but it is more than that, it is truest/tried and tested form of public health that these epidemiologists are talking about, and we should at least listen to them to see if this may be a path for Ireland before out right objecting.



I think they touch on in the video most of the objectors points, that have made us afraid of trying this avenue. Courage not fear. Nite all.

Thank you. As a fellow vulnerable person who is frankly sick of this woke nonsense that "we must do this to protect our vulnerable" where pretty much nothing which is proposed can help us but just make our life worse, I am glad there is more of us.
Government should focus to increase ICU in case it will be needed not just for covid and not to pay people for sitting on their arrse in home.
I get it. It is fantastic for some people to be able to sit at home while on full pay. They would be singing a different song when they would be welded in their houses or apartments with just basic rations delivered to them once a week. The last lockdown was a joke anyway when third of the population was
required to go as if nothing was happening to cater for the rest who were "locked down".

mandrake04

rob316 wrote: »

Again on new Zealand. It's an island on the other side of the world 6 hours away from the nearest country.

Never heard such rubbish, NZ is 3hrs flight from Sydney.

SeaBreezes

Sorry, didnt watch video, but is it definate you can GET immunity? I thoight that was the issue? Its only temporary and every infection weakens your immune system so eventually it will kill even the healthiest?

If it was get it once, immune for even 3 years i thought it would be herd immunity as the eventual goal.

But iran seems to indicate thats not possible?

patnor1011

mandrake04 wrote: »

Never heard such rubbish, NZ is 3hrs flight from Sydney.

The same rubbish as comparing NZ to Ireland. The only thing we have in common is that both are islands. Oh yeah - and we have nearly the same population but that is about it. Even here any comparison ends as NZ is about 3.5x bigger than Ireland.

Yeah, 3hrs flight is really something.
You can probably row on a small boat to the nearest country from here. Or have a 3-second walk if you want to go through border to NI.

mandrake04

patnor1011 wrote: »

The same rubbish as comparing NZ to Ireland. The only thing we have in common is that both are islands. Oh yeah - and we have nearly the same population but that is about it. Even here any comparison ends as NZ is about 3.5x bigger than Ireland.

Yeah, 3hrs flight is really something.
You can probably row on a small boat to the nearest country from here. Or have a 3-second walk if you want to go through border to NI.

I’m not comparing Ireland to NZ, I just pointing out the facts that nearest country is not 6 hrs away.

I understand why Ireland can not emulate NZ the free movement and border blah blah ... I wasn’t disputing that. I like NZ it’s a great country, I think they have done really well.

patnor1011

mandrake04 wrote: »

I’m not comparing Ireland to NZ, I just pointing out the facts that nearest country is not 6 hrs away.

I understand why Ireland can not emulate NZ the free movement and border blah blah ... I wasn’t disputing that. I like NZ it’s a great country, I think they have done really well.

Free movement is not blah blah.
It is funny to watch people comparing Ireland or our response to some selected countries and then these very same people get their knickers twisted when there is a talk comparing covid to other viruses. Mainly flu but even here they loathe flu-covid comparison and love to fantasize about ebola-covid comparisons or estimates.
The whole covid situation is becoming ridiculous.

mandrake04

patnor1011 wrote: »

Free movement is not blah blah.
It is funny to watch people comparing Ireland or our response to some selected countries and then these very same people get their knickers twisted when there is a talk comparing covid to other viruses. Mainly flu but even here they loathe flu-covid comparison and love to fantasize about ebola-covid comparisons or estimates.
The whole covid situation is becoming ridiculous.

Yeah it is it’s blah blah..same old story...we all know.

I’m not getting my knickers in a twist about anything, never mentioned flu or Ebola like I said I was pointing out the stupidity of saying NZ was 6 hours from the nearest country when it not it’s 3 hrs. It’s rubbish.

I’m sure Kiwis are not that concerned about Ireland either, they be too busy enjoying summer, beach, cool beers living a quality life.

Polar101

Arghus wrote: »

People have amazing, truly amazing faith on here, that the government are making the right call. Okay then, I hope - sincerely - that they are right and that my gut feeling is totally wrong. I will be delighted to be wrong. But, first, ask yourself one question - Since this government took power name one previous decision the government has taken up to this point which has proved to be the right one or hasn't later had to be amended or revised?

Going to take a slightly differing view here. Just because NPHET recommended Level 5, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best idea. Moving 24 counties from Level 2 to 5 and 2 from 3 to 5 would have been a very drastic measure. And it would've gone against the plan the government released just 3 weeks ago. It's not March any more, we've meant to be "living with COVID-19" as per the plan.

Level 3 restrictions are already quite strict - no traveling outside your county, for example. And it seems like they might be having some effect in Dublin, especially if there is a little bit of enforcing the restrictions, and not just "pretty please, don't have a house party?".