What dipstick decided to SETI ??

antiskeptic

The search for extra terrestrial intelligence involves beaming information into space in the hope that there is a sufficiently advanced intelligence out there to pick it up. The allied hope must be that said life will respond.

Such intelligence would have to be as at least as advanced as we are - it is only comparatively recently that we have been in a position to beam the fact and location of our existence into space.

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Now, we have a pretty good indication of what a species who superior to other species or even others of their own species tend to do. Look at all of history.

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

The one thing that protects us is vast space, just like great distance protects you as a snooker player.

Yet we're putting our name up in lights .. which strikes me as stupidity of the highest order.

Potential-Monke

You can relax, most sci-fi alien films based in and around now were completely off the ball with how advanced we would be at this stage. We won't encounter aliens for another few hundred years at least imo.

And if they land tomorrow, I welcome our new alien overlords.

Peregrinus

If the term "dipstick" must be used, we should perhaps reserve it for those who so comprehensively misunderstand the SETI project.

The focus of the project is the reverse of what you suggest; not to radiate signals outwards into space but to monitor and analyse signals from space, to search for patterns that suggests design, structure, communication, etc rather than simply naturally occurring electromagnetic and other radiation. The aim is not to be detected by our own broadcasts, but rather to detect others through their broadcasts.

As for the dangers attendant upon being detected by our own broadcasts, that ship has pretty comprehensively sailed. Ship-to-shore and ship-to-ship radio telegraphy was developed in the 1890s century, and the first signals sent by this method are still travelling outwards through space, having now (obviously) reached a distance of about 125 light years from Earth. They were weak signals with limited structure and would be extremely difficult to detect, but the volume and structuring of signals being broadcast into space increased hugely with the advent of general radio broadcasting in the 1920s, and then television in the 1950s. For decades now we have been pumping prodigious quantities of structured electromagnetic signals travelling at the speed of light in - literally - all directions from Earth. These broadcasts are not made with the object of being detected, but they are eminently detectable all the same.

What is called "Active SETI" is the broadcasting of signals with the specific hope of their being detected and successfully analysed. It does happen, but it's a tiny, tiny part of the overal SETI project. The aim is to broadcast signals which are designed to be capable of being analysed from first principles in the hope we can thereby communicate information to other cultures, without knowing what we have in common with them. For the reason just given this doesn't materially increase the chances of our presence being detected, and indeed the most likely cultures to receive and analyse these signals are cultures which have already detected our presence from general broadcasting, and are therefore paying attention to this particular corner of space.

Wanderer78

We can't travel at the speed of light, but signals of life can, yup, seems like a good idea to me!

Del2005

antiskeptic wrote: »

The search for extra terrestrial intelligence involves beaming information into space in the hope that there is a sufficiently advanced intelligence out there to pick it up. The allied hope must be that said life will respond.

Such intelligence would have to be as at least as advanced as we are - it is only comparatively recently that we have been in a position to beam the fact and location of our existence into space.

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Now, we have a pretty good indication of what a species who superior to other species or even others of their own species tend to do. Look at all of history.

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

The one thing that protects us is vast space, just like great distance protects you as a snooker player.

Yet we're putting our name up in lights .. which strikes me as stupidity of the highest order.

We put our address on the Pioneer space craft!

Wanderer78

Del2005 wrote: »

We put our address on the Pioneer space craft!

Eircode?

Smiles35

Peregrinus wrote: »

As for the dangers attendant upon being detected by our own broadcasts, that ship has pretty comprehensively sailed. Ship-to-shore and ship-to-ship radio telegraphy was developed in the 1890s century, and the first signals sent by this method are still travelling outwards through space, having now (obviously) reached a distance of about 125 light years from Earth. They were weak signals with limited structure and would be extremely difficult to detect, but the volume and structuring of signals being broadcast into space increased hugely with the advent of general radio broadcasting in the 1920s, and then television in the 1950s. For decades now we have been pumping prodigious quantities of structured electromagnetic signals travelling at the speed of light in - literally - all directions from Earth. These broadcasts are not made with the object of being detected, but they are eminently detectable all the same.

The signals actually degrade. That's something I only found out recently. If you talk to the people involved they will point to our most powerfull signal senders, millitary radar and the lesser commercial aviation radar.

Peregrinus

Yes, the signals do degrade. Also, they get swamped by background radiation, But even a quite degraded signal, only partly received,may be identified as artificial, not natural, and that's all that is necessary for an alien civilisation to conclude that the place they emanate from must contain a life-form sufficiently intelligent to generate electromagnetic signals. And we're sending out signals of that kind all the time - as in, 24/7. It may well be correct that radar signals are more likely to be detected than radio or television broadcasts, but so what? Either way, the aliens detecting the signals don't need to understand their purpose or function in order to know of our existence.

SouthWesterly

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You can relax, most sci-fi alien films based in and around now were completely off the ball with how advanced we would be at this stage. We won't encounter aliens for another few hundred years at least imo.

And if they land tomorrow, I welcome our new alien overlords.

At least we know Tom Jones singing can kill them

Smiles35

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, the signals do degrade. Also, they get swamped by background radiation, But even a quite degraded signal, only partly received,may be identified as artificial, not natural, and that's all that is necessary for an alien civilisation to conclude that the place they emanate from must contain a life-form sufficiently intelligent to generate electromagnetic signals. And we're sending out signals of that kind all the time - as in, 24/7. It may well be correct that radar signals are more likely to be detected than radio or television broadcasts, but so what? Either way, the aliens detecting the signals don't need to understand their purpose or function in order to know of our existence.

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

Pronto63

It’s really only frequencies at the higher end of the radio spectrum that leave our little planet.

HF, ham radio etc, bounces off Ionosphere.
VHF, from 30MHz, will penetrate into space. This is FH radio, TV etc so really only post WWII.

Peregrinus

Smiles35 wrote: »

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

Possibly this one? An incredibly cool project to build a widely-dispersed network of linked radiotelescopes in areas of virtual terrestrial radio silence - hence, the Australian outback, the Karoo desert. While it could be, and probably would be, used for SETI detection purposes, that's pretty far down on the list of projects and priorities.

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the term "dipstick" must be used, we should perhaps reserve it for those who so comprehensively misunderstand the SETI project.

The focus of the project is the reverse of what you suggest; not to radiate signals outwards into space but to monitor and analyse signals from space, to search for patterns that suggests design, structure, communication, etc rather than simply naturally occurring electromagnetic and other radiation. The aim is not to be detected by our own broadcasts, but rather to detect others through their broadcasts.

As for the dangers attendant upon being detected by our own broadcasts, that ship has pretty comprehensively sailed. Ship-to-shore and ship-to-ship radio telegraphy was developed in the 1890s century, and the first signals sent by this method are still travelling outwards through space, having now (obviously) reached a distance of about 125 light years from Earth. They were weak signals with limited structure and would be extremely difficult to detect, but the volume and structuring of signals being broadcast into space increased hugely with the advent of general radio broadcasting in the 1920s, and then television in the 1950s. For decades now we have been pumping prodigious quantities of structured electromagnetic signals travelling at the speed of light in - literally - all directions from Earth. These broadcasts are not made with the object of being detected, but they are eminently detectable all the same.

What is called "Active SETI" is the broadcasting of signals with the specific hope of their being detected and successfully analysed. It does happen, but it's a tiny, tiny part of the overal SETI project. The aim is to broadcast signals which are designed to be capable of being analysed from first principles in the hope we can thereby communicate information to other cultures, without knowing what we have in common with them. For the reason just given this doesn't materially increase the chances of our presence being detected, and indeed the most likely cultures to receive and analyse these signals are cultures which have already detected our presence from general broadcasting, and are therefore paying attention to this particular corner of space.

I stand corrected. Failing a giant tinfoil hat in space, we are as the opening sequence in Contact shows - a veritable electromagnetic cacophony.

Nevertheless, designing signals to enhance our being detected does strike as a bit of a risky punt to be taking

Kylta

antiskeptic wrote: »

The search for extra terrestrial intelligence involves beaming information into space in the hope that there is a sufficiently advanced intelligence out there to pick it up. The allied hope must be that said life will respond.

Such intelligence would have to be as at least as advanced as we are - it is only comparatively recently that we have been in a position to beam the fact and location of our existence into space.

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Now, we have a pretty good indication of what a species who superior to other species or even others of their own species tend to do. Look at all of history.

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

The one thing that protects us is vast space, just like great distance protects you as a snooker player.

Yet we're putting our name up in lights .. which strikes me as stupidity of the highest order.

Was it the same guy who found the yeti

Peregrinus

antiskeptic wrote: »

I stand corrected. Failing a giant tinfoil hat in space, we are as the opening sequence in Contact shows - a veritable electromagnetic cacophony.

Nevertheless, designing signals to enhance our being detected does strike as a bit of a risky punt to be taking

They are not designed to enhance the chance of our being detected so much as to enhance the chance of our being understood. The idea is not so much to advertise our presence as to communicate.

Which, given your concerns, is probaby wise. In general the more and deeper communication you have with others, the less likely you are to eat them for lunch.

Smiles35

Peregrinus wrote: »

Possibly this one? An incredibly cool project to build a widely-dispersed network of linked radiotelescopes in areas of virtual terrestrial radio silence - hence, the Australian outback, the Karoo desert. While it could be, and probably would be, used for SETI detection purposes, that's pretty far down on the list of projects and priorities.

Thanks for finding that for me . Yes, I see from the website a list of varied use's stated, not SETI. It should be all SETI work!

Smiles35

Anyone intested is starting a 'lobby-group' to get some government involement? If so, give me a pm.

Wanderer78

Smiles35 wrote: »

Anyone intested is starting a 'lobby-group' to get some government involement? If so, give me a pm.

lobby group for what?

Smiles35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

lobby group for what?

To get our governments pockets involved in the search for extraterrestrial life.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

antiskeptic wrote: »

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Why?

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

Again why so?

You haven't presented any evidence to suggest why this scenario is highly likely?

Are you basing your theory solely off hollywood's depiction of extraterrestrials? It's not the most scientific approach.

And besides, even if we do manage to contact another alien civilization... if they were more advanced than us, couldn't that potentially also include transcending such things as war and violence and colonization etc?

I think most of us humans would consider eliminating those negative things from our societies as being a sign of our greater advancement as a species.

If they're more advanced than us, they may have already figured out how to create a completely peaceful society... they could potentially teach us the same lessons, and bring our civilization forward maybe centuries in one giant leap!

Wanderer78

Smiles35 wrote: »

To get our governments pockets involved in the search for extraterrestrial life.

sorry, im half asleep, duh! to be honest, i think id rather they borrowed to run the country

ThunderCat

Nevermind radio signals and the likes that degrade rapidly, it's our atmosphere that would give us away. The light from our atmosphere can be split using a spectrograph or spectroscope to show the chemical makeup of the atmosphere. We have that technology now, nevermind an advanced alien civilization. What our atmosphere tells the cosmos is that we have naturally occurring greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and water vapor but we also have synthetic man made compounds such as CFC's and hydrofluorocarbons. That tells anyone looking all they need to know. There is nothing we can do about it and because that information is contained in the light reflecting off Earth, it can be seen from all directions from many many light years away, maybe much further depending on the level of alien technology involved.

And that is how we in turn will end up finding signs of intelligent life in the Cosmos. The James Webb Space Telescope, due to launch in the next few years, is designed to do exactly that and will be analyzing the atmospheres of exoplanets in our galaxy.

Mad_maxx

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You can relax, most sci-fi alien films based in and around now were completely off the ball with how advanced we would be at this stage. We won't encounter aliens for another few hundred years at least imo.

And if they land tomorrow, I welcome our new alien overlords.

more like a few thousand years , would take thousands of years to reach the nearest star ,we,ve made very little progress re_ exploring the universe

Smiles35

ThunderCat wrote: »

Nevermind radio signals and the likes that degrade rapidly, it's our atmosphere that would give us away. The light from our atmosphere can be split using a spectrograph or spectroscope to show the chemical makeup of the atmosphere. We have that technology now, nevermind an advanced alien civilization. What our atmosphere tells the cosmos is that we have naturally occurring greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and water vapor but we also have synthetic man made compounds such as CFC's and hydrofluorocarbons. That tells anyone looking all they need to know. There is nothing we can do about it and because that information is contained in the light reflecting off Earth, it can be seen from all directions from many many light years away, maybe much further depending on the level of alien technology involved.

And that is how we in turn will end up finding signs of intelligent life in the Cosmos. The James Webb Space Telescope, due to launch in the next few years, is designed to do exactly that and will be analyzing the atmospheres of exoplanets in our galaxy.

Great news. In that case cancel the lobby group. Sure wouldnt it be going direct to the ESA and rockets after some finds.

Smiles35

Mad_maxx wrote: »

more like a few thousand years , would take thousands of years to reach the nearest star ,we,ve made very little progress re_ exploring the universe

Hundreds of years to reach the nearest star Max. Not thousands.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

if you think SETI was a dipstick , what about the A -Bomb ?

The A-bomb test and drops on Japan sent out shockwaves into the galaxy , that resulted in a flurry of various races arriving here wondering WTF we are up to .

Some knew about the spear throwing monkeys halfway out in the suburbs of the galaxy on an isolated multirace genetic test planet , they may even have put us here or designed us, and just kept tabs .

but the others didnt know until the bombs woke them up , and come 1947 they all arrived ....

( I'm kidding ... or am I ??? )

ThunderCat

Smiles35 wrote: »

Hundreds of years to reach the nearest star Max. Not thousands.

It would take us 80,000 years to reach our nearest star using current technology.

Kylta

Smiles35 wrote: »

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

We already have a detector in ireland, its called a bullsh!t detector. Nationally known has the government

Smiles35

ThunderCat wrote: »

It would take us 80,000 years to reach our nearest star using current technology.

It will take work. It's being worked on. It was found out light itself can have a pushing effect. The breakthrough starshot crowd reckon something small could be pushed to a decent speed. https://breakthroughinitiatives.org/initiative/3

Something large could be pushed aswell I suppose, it would just take more energy. It's the damage that will be taken by anything going at high speeds that is the unknown. And needs to be found out.

cj maxx

[/https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/06/22/142160/this-is-how-many-people-wed-have-to-send-to-proxima-centauri-to-make-sure-someone-actually/
I don’t know why it not coming up as a link

Mad_maxx

Smiles35 wrote: »

Hundreds of years to reach the nearest star Max. Not thousands.

im afraid you are quite wrong

EmmetSpiceland

Why is everyone always afraid of an alien “civilisation” coming here? If they are that far advanced what would they need us for? There is nothing here that they can’t find, in abundance, out in space.

They would hardly need slaves. If they needed the land I’m sure there are lots of other “uninhabited” planets that would be less hassle to deal with.

This is just more of the same sci-fi nonsense that’s in that ‘UFO’ thread. It’s beggars belief that this thread, and that one, are in the same place as the ‘Speed of Light’ one.

Wanderer78

EmmetSpiceland wrote:

Why is everyone always afraid of an alien “civilisation†coming here? If they are that far advanced what would they need us for? There is nothing here that they can’t find, in abundance, out in space.

Maybe they're just as curious as us, maybe they're trying to figure out are they alone?

Smiles35

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im afraid you are quite wrong

I've never had to send you on a lightbeam down to the bar before Max. Give me a second.

AllForIt

My unbeaten record in Snooker remains 100% as I'm so far away from a snooker table I'm impossible to beat.

EmmetSpiceland

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Maybe they're just as curious as us, maybe they're trying to figure out are they alone?

That may well be the case but do we need to fear them if they are curious “explorers”?

The idea we should stop sending “signals” out for fear some evil galactic empire will set their sights on us is just laughable. Using our blood to power their nefarious “death rays”. Absolute twaddle.

ThunderCat

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

That may well be the case but do we need to fear them if they are curious “explorers”?

The idea we should stop sending “signals” out for fear some evil galactic empire will set their sights on us is just laughable. Using our blood to power their nefarious “death rays”. Absolute twaddle.

One of the proposed reasons why we haven't found signs of intelligent life in the cosmos yet is because it is a dark forest. Meaning that a truly advanced civilization will do all it can to mask its existence for fear of being wiped out by another advanced civilization. It is young civilizations such as our own that get destroyed because our existence is easily detectable for advanced civilizations. Perhaps we are far enough out of the galactic centre and away from much older stars that we get to become advanced enough to start disguising our existence. Who knows.

The Chinese author Liu Cixin has a trilogy of books based on exactly this. It's called the Three Body Problem. Probably my favorite books ever.

And here is an article on The Fermi Paradox taken from the Wait But Why website that goes into detail all the different scenarios as to why we haven't found intelligent life yet. Amazing read:

https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

breezy1985

ThunderCat wrote: »

One of the proposed reasons why we haven't found signs of intelligent life in the cosmos yet is because it is a dark forest. Meaning that a truly advanced civilization will do all it can to mask its existence for fear of being wiped out by another advanced civilization. It is young civilizations such as our own that get destroyed because our existence is easily detectable for advanced civilizations. Perhaps we are far enough out of the galactic centre and away from much older stars that we get to become advanced enough to start disguising our existence. Who knows.

The Chinese author Liu Cixin has a trilogy of books based on exactly this. It's called the Three Body Problem. Probably my favorite books ever.

And here is an article on The Fermi Paradox taken from the Wait But Why website that goes into detail all the different scenarios as to why we haven't found intelligent life yet. Amazing read:

https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

With any luck the advanced civilization will think we are so f***ING useless that they will see us as a charity case and help out.

Only downside is if they offload their version of Bono onto us

topper75

breezy1985 wrote: »

With any luck the advanced civilization will think we are so f***ING useless that they will see us as a charity case and help out.

Only downside is if they offload their version of Bono onto us

"Yeaaaaah maaaaan, like, permission to beam aboard?"

"Ah... no."

breezy1985

topper75 wrote: »

"Yeaaaaah maaaaan, like, permission to beam aboard?"

"Ah... no."

"Hi my name is Spacebono and I'm a rockstar. I just wanted you to know every time I click my fingers a child on Earth dies"

iamstop

A galactic map showing the extent our signals have reached in the 100 odd years they have been beaming.

Taken from here:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/news/a27934/galaxy-map-human-radio-broadcasts/

"The Milky Way stretches between 100,000 and 180,000 light-years across, depending on where you measure, which means a signal broadcast from one side of the galaxy would take 100,000 years or more to reach the other side."

Hand in Your Pants

What bothers me is that broadfaced hairpieced freak sending one of his ugly naff cars up into space playing pop music

1990sman

maybe we are the aliens. and maybe other beings are imperceptible to us.
oh what was the story with the american pentegon statement about having craft 'not off this world' ? was there any more on that? funny how what might be biggest story for all humans just kinda fizzled out in light of latest addition to corona family.

was pentegon pullin our leg, like with wordplay whereby they'll showcase some new moonbuggy or lunar elevator

Smiles35

31 October 2021, James Web gets launched. Up to watch for chlorofluorocarbons in the atmospheres of planets as was posted earlier. Imagine that, we are only a year away from reports of industrialization on other planets. :eek:

I have to laugh a bit aswell, we will be able to say for definate they are more advanced than we are, light was bouceing off their planet while they were industrialised, longer than ours.

Ronin247

Smiles35 wrote: »

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

We have much more pressing issues in this country, never mind spending money looking for intelligent lifeforms on other planets . Lets try and find some intelligent lifeforms in the Dail.

Peregrinus

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Why is everyone always afraid of an alien “civilisation” coming here? If they are that far advanced what would they need us for? There is nothing here that they can’t find, in abundance, out in space.

They would hardly need slaves. If they needed the land I’m sure there are lots of other “uninhabited” planets that would be less hassle to deal with.

This is just more of the same sci-fi nonsense that’s in that ‘UFO’ thread. It’s beggars belief that this thread, and that one, are in the same place as the ‘Speed of Light’ one.

Perhaps they want to come to feast on our delicious, delicious flesh.

PTH2009

Nphet wouldn't approve of non essential travel

Imagine MM or Leo having to deal with an Alien invasion

TuringBot47

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Why is everyone always afraid of an alien “civilisation” coming here? If they are that far advanced what would they need us for? There is nothing here that they can’t find, in abundance, out in space.

Except life itself. A bunch of aliens living off vegan food might consider earth a drive thru restaurant and mutilate the odd cow.
Or want DNA samples of every useful animal, plant and bacteria.

But more than likely we're considered the savage aggressive species in the neighbourhood and Earth is considered the Darndale of the milky way.

It's likely aliens learnt how to extend their life maybe to hundreds of years. So they would see us as immature children unable to cooperate and share the planets resources properly.

There's also the possibility that there's competing aliens out there based on different types, eg mammals, reptiles, insects and that more advanced aliens are shielding/protecting us from the others.

auspicious

In the fictional universe of Star Trek, the Prime Directive (also known as "Starfleet General Order 1", "General Order 1", and the "non-interference directive") is a guiding principle of Starfleet, prohibiting its members from interfering with the internal and natural development of alien civilizations.

Ie Let them get on with it.

auspicious

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Why is everyone always afraid of an alien “civilisation” coming here? If they are that far advanced what would they need us for? There is nothing here that they can’t find, in abundance, out in space.

They would hardly need slaves.

Since we're on the hypothetical, what if they were obligate carnivores and needed flesh to sustain themselves? Perhaps spanning lightyears of space on 'fake' meat they had an unjustified need for succulent flesh( in this case human) and 7billion souls is just ripe pickings?
How could you argue against that?

440Hertz

SETI just listens with radio-telescopes and other instruments, like looking for light pulse and X-ray pulses and so on.

That’s what the SETI Institute has been doing for decades. They’re actually very cautious and have thought about and discussed the risks and have come up with policies.

Then there’s Active SETI and METI - Messaging Extra Terrestrial intelligence. That’s generally been one of stuff where messages have been deliberately beamed into space, targeting regions that are assumed to have more likelihood of there being something listening. They’ve not been associated with the SETI Institute.

There are plenty of theories that it’s something that mightn’t be the greatest idea, as we could end to alerting something unpleasant to our location. We’re very likely already noticeable if something were looking, both due to technology but also due due so the gasses in the atmosphere that can only be produced by life.

Seems highly unlikely we’ll contact anything, but you’d never know. It’s an infinitely big universe. It would be a hell of a waste of space if there’s no other life anywhere.

We could end up contacting something so far away that all we ever get is an intelligent, but utterly incomprehensible signal that takes a very long time to send and receive. Like a beep every 100 years.