Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Mrs OBumble

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Pubs, restaurants, arts, hotels and live music will all operate with Ireland isolated. It might not be as busy but they could all operate and make money. There would still be tourism from people travelling around their own country, wouldn’t make up for no foreign travel but since no one could holiday abroad the level of holidaying in Ireland by people living in Ireland would massively increase.

Airports would no doubt be in serious trouble but these jobs could be supposed by the government.

You are looking for any excuses you can to find fault with my suggestion. It wouldn’t be easy but it could work and is very far from the “fantasy” you think it would be.

You underestimate how many families would be hurt by no travel though, and how much anguish it would cause in society.

New Zealand is 5 hours by plane from anywhere (and a lot more from most places in NZ to most places anywhere else). But still they have a stream of people going through quarantine. Heart-breaking stories in the media of people missing their parents / children / etc deathbed moments because of quarantine.

Ireland is a lot closer to other countries, and has a culture of frequent short-term travel. We have many many jobs/industries which depend on European language speakers living here. So there are a lot more family links, as well as trade / business ones.



And for all New Zealand is now allegedly "back to normal" - people are still being told to

"keep... a safe distance from people you don’t know while out and about ... Consider wearing a mask or face covering when physical distancing is difficult. ... use the Covid Tracer app to check in on buses and trains ... sign in at the stadium [for a big sporting event], take a note of their seat number and practice good hygiene."

- from https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300129702/covid19-there-is-one-new-case-of-coronavirus-in-managed-isolation-a-young-girl

dalyboy

charlie14 wrote: »

Tin foil hat wearers are those that ignore reality .


Something you have managed to do with all your points while being, I assume careful, not to mention a few others that you strongly suspect would require the purchase of more tin foil for an ever bigger hat. .

Lesson for tomorrow for you.

How to spot a “tin foil hat wearer”

Dr Sunetra Gupta .... Oxford

Dr Jay Bhattacharya ..... Stanford

Dr. Martin Kulldorff .... Harvard

Check out their qualifications yourself.

Then -
Compare these qualifications to our NPHET little boys & girls.

You will quickly discover that it is you that is the tin foil hat wearer yourself.

Deny reality as much as you want but you are on a loser tbh

Plumbthedepths

dalyboy wrote: »

Lesson for tomorrow for you.

How to spot a “tin foil hat wearer”

Dr Sunetra Gupta .... Oxford

Dr Jay Bhattacharya ..... Stanford

Dr. Martin Kulldorff .... Harvard

Check out their qualifications yourself.

Then -
Compare these qualifications to our NPHET little boys & girls.

You will quickly discover that it is you that is the tin foil hat wearer yourself.

Deny reality as much as you want but you are on a loser tbh

I believe the eminently qualified ( although he/she has never shared their qualifications)boards expert Boogles labelled Professor Gupta a 'cabbage'.

dubdaymo

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

You lockdown until the virus is zero cases then you open up everything inside the county but essentially ban inward foreign travel by closing ports/airports and using the army to stop cross border trips.

Alternatively you get an all-Ireland agreement to close the island. I’ve said this and least 5 times in this thread alone and I won’t be doing it again.

FFS will you all stop engaging with a poster who continuously posts utter tripe such as this.

Even the W.H.O is urging countries to stop this lockdown nonsense
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/who-official-urges-world-leaders-to-stop-using-lockdowns-as-primary-virus-control-method/ar-BB19TBUo


"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists, we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” read the petition, known as the Great Barrington Declaration. "Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health."

Plumbthedepths

dubdaymo wrote: »

FFS will you all stop engaging with a poster who continuously posts utter tripe such as this.

Even the W.H.O is urging countries to stop this lockdown nonsense
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/who-official-urges-world-leaders-to-stop-using-lockdowns-as-primary-virus-control-method/ar-BB19TBUo


"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists, we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” read the petition, known as the Great Barrington Declaration. "Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health."

I used the ignore function after he tried to argue it was ok to drink and drive

acequion

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You underestimate how many families would be hurt by no travel though, and how much anguish it would cause in society.

New Zealand is 5 hours by plane from anywhere (and a lot more from most places in NZ to most places anywhere else). But still they have a stream of people going through quarantine. Heart-breaking stories in the media of people missing their parents / children / etc deathbed moments because of quarantine.

Ireland is a lot closer to other countries, and has a culture of frequent short-term travel. We have many many jobs/industries which depend on European language speakers living here. So there are a lot more family links, as well as trade / business ones.



And for all New Zealand is now allegedly "back to normal" - people are still being told to


- from https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300129702/covid19-there-is-one-new-case-of-coronavirus-in-managed-isolation-a-young-girl

Completely agree with everything you say but it's patently obvious that this poster quite simply doesn't care about the anguish that sealing and isolating the country would cause. The separation and fragmentation of families, the breakdown of long distance relationships. Close ties and bonds in other countries and frequent movement between them has become so normal that I find it staggering that there are people who blithely suggest, even push for closed borders. But as was discussed on this thread some pages back there are a depressingly large number of people with zero empathy once they're not affected. Glaringly obvious on fora like these.

So the people pushing for closed borders as they chase their fantasy zero covid island are quite obviously people with no loved ones in other countries and for whom travel is not an important part of their lives. And they couldn't care less if you never see your elderly parent again or if you lose your livelihood.

Micky 32

acequion wrote: »

Completely agree with everything you say but it's patently obvious that this poster quite simply doesn't care about the anguish that sealing and isolating the country would cause. The separation and fragmentation of families, the breakdown of long distance relationships. Close ties and bonds in other countries and frequent movement between them has become so normal that I find it staggering that there are people who blithely suggest, even push for closed borders. But as was discussed on this thread some pages back there are a depressingly large number of people with zero empathy once they're not affected. Glaringly obvious on fora like these.

So the people pushing for closed borders as they chase their fantasy zero covid island are quite obviously people with no loved ones in other countries and for whom travel is not an important part of their lives. And they couldn't care less if you never see your elderly parent again or if you lose your livelihood.

Exactly. For some reason some people are very robotic and cold, heartless, soulless. They don’t have feelings, lack emotions. They feel absolutely zero towards other people. Maybe it’s not their fault. Maybe it’s the way they were brought up.

This is the longest i haven’t seen my family in the states and it makes me angrier, depressed and more frustrated everyday, especially when i read certain posts on this thread.

Penfailed

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

I couldn't stop laughing at using the army to stop cross border trips 😂😂

They going to set up a checkpoint at every crossing in the country?

What about people who may travel in and out of North multiple times to get to work. People living one side but working the other?

I've become fed up asking nox for an answer to this. He doesn't have one.

patnor1011

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sure there's been no shortage of people saying a vaccine is on the way.

Now there may be a vaccine a some stage, and we'd all love one if the virus doesn't disappear, but there are no guarantees.

Doesn't stop the extremists though.

These covid vaccine zealots are magic merchants.
They will dismiss covid herd immunity because immunity does not last long in one post but tell you that vaccine is coming in another one. Somehow you should believe that a jab is going to give you longer protection than any you can get natural way when your body fights the virus.
This is going to be a wet dream of every vaccine manufacturer. A requirement of getting one and then getting a "booster" one or two times a year. Probably till the rest of your life because you know, covid... All the while they will be protected from any claim or protected if the vaccine does nothing or not much.
They are wrong though saying "there will be vaccine". There already are a couple of them but it is not yet known if they are working as intended and we still do not know if they will be effective.

patnor1011

A record 612,000 people are waiting for their first outpatient consultation in hospital.

The Irish Patients Association has warned that a number are at risk of dying as a result of the record figures waiting for a consultation.

250,000 people have been on the waiting list for at least a year, while nearly 76,000 people are also waiting for an inpatient or day case treatment.

Even if a small percentage of those die as a result of the fact that they cannot get the necessary consultations in time to diagnose the problems that they actually have, those numbers could be quite large.

Stephen McMahon from the Irish Patients Association said large numbers are at risk due to the record waits.

“When you’re getting into the situation of over 600,000 people waiting, this is an enormous burden,” he said.

“Even if a small percentage of those die as a result of the fact that they cannot get the necessary consultations in time to diagnose the problems that they actually have, those numbers could be quite large.”

Capacity
Mr McMahon said numbers would only continue to increase due to capacity problems linked to the worsening Covid-19 pandemic.

“The reality is, these figures are going to continue to increase because of capacity problems, if we cannot deal with the challenges of Covid-19 and the part that the public have to play to protect themselves and others so that they don’t fall victim to it,” he said.

“On the other hand, we have to be creative in the way that these patients who are waiting too long will get the necessary access to care that they need.”

---

These people on waiting lists are not there for shiFt and giggles. A lot of them will be suspected cancers and such. So if just 1% of them die as a result of late diagnosis and treatment that means 6k pead people.
Covid this!

zerosugarbuzz

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/coronavirus-who-backflips-on-virus-stance-by-condemning-lockdowns/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

WHO no longer advocating lockdowns

weldoninhio

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

I’ve explained it multiple times and I won’t do it again.



She didn’t, in fact one of my siblings didn’t get it until their late 20’s so my parents were not going out of their way to have us catch it.

Chicken pox is a harmless mild illness, I’ve had worse hangovers. It’s irrelevant if you get it or not.

Further proof that you are full of shyte.

In 2015 chickenpox resulted in 6,400 deaths globally – down from 8,900 in 1990. Death occurs in about 1 per 60,000 cases.

bucketybuck

A reminder that New Zealand, that shining example to the world of zero covid, still does not in fact have zero covid. It still has not eliminated covid within its borders.

People would be better served not feeding the idiot who claims to believe it is a sane strategy to follow.

hmmm

patnor1011 wrote: »

These covid vaccine zealots are magic merchants.
They will dismiss covid herd immunity

Herd immunity will only come with a vaccine. There is no "natural herd immunity" route out of Covid without mass suffering and death, and if those infections are dragged out over a long time we are likely to see reinfections.

So stop trying to spread fake news and disinformation about vaccines, unless you want this pandemic to last longer than it has to.

ShyMets

Penfailed wrote: »

I've become fed up asking nox for an answer to this. He doesn't have one.

Has anyone pointed out to nox that during the Troubles the British Army with the guts of 30000 men couldn't seal the boarder.

So what hope we have

3xh

hmmm wrote: »

Herd immunity will only come with a vaccine. There is no "natural herd immunity" route out of Covid without mass suffering and death, and if those infections are dragged out over a long time we are likely to see reinfections.

So stop trying to spread fake news and disinformation about vaccines, unless you want this pandemic to last longer than it has to.

hmmm, back in March, Johnson, Whitty and Valance in the U.K. stood at their podiums and unveiled herd immunity as their plan for Covid.

Their plan was to monitor it, so nothing drastic, let it sweep through the majority of the population. They said a mass lockdown like Italy wasn’t called for.

About 7 days after that they did a complete about turn.

You don’t need to be an epidemiologist or Gates to know that just waiting and counting down the clock so as to mirror a country like Italy is stupid. If you have the heads up like the U.K. would’ve had in this example, you’d use it to get ahead of the virus by using a lockdown. They chose not to.

Because herd immunity was their plan. These are experts. More knowledgeable than you. No?

hmmm

3xh wrote: »

Because herd immunity was their plan. These are experts. More knowledgeable than you. No?

As you said yourself, the UK very quickly backed out of that plan once they realised it wouldn't work with this virus.

The UK plan currently is localised lockdowns to see them through to a vaccine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-54375643

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

There must be thousands of epidemiologists in the world and you can find only one to back up your views?

If you want me to get more there are plenty to choose from.

Take your vaccination and stop being such a child looking for attention.

hmmm wrote: »

I've never heard of any of these people. Is this from the grandiose sounding "Barrington Declaration" signed by "‘Dr Johnny Fartpants’ and ‘Professor Notaf Uckingclue’"?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-herd-immunity-great-barrington-declaration-scientists-signatures-fake-names-b912778.html

hmmm wrote: »

Herd immunity will only come with a vaccine. There is no "natural herd immunity" route out of Covid without mass suffering and death, and if those infections are dragged out over a long time we are likely to see reinfections.

So stop trying to spread fake news and disinformation about vaccines, unless you want this pandemic to last longer than it has to.

hmmm wrote: »

As you said yourself, the UK very quickly backed out of that plan once they realised it wouldn't work with this virus.

The UK plan currently is localised lockdowns to see them through to a vaccine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-54375643

You are incredibly rude lately.

Also you need to take a chill pill and stop watching RTE. it will be very beneficial for you trust me.

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

As you said yourself, the UK very quickly backed out of that plan once they realised it wouldn't work with this virus.

The UK plan currently is localised lockdowns to see them through to a vaccine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-54375643

Link?

Last time I checked it was Ferguson's models predicting 500k + dead that changed UKs mind. But I suppose you are better informed than that?

There is no guaranteed BREXIT is going to ensure an open border now the way things are looking, how would the posters who think for public health reasons where many would buy into it that it would be impossible - how would be handled if there is an actual hard border legally?

I am not for a hard border nor do I suggest preventing cross over lightly but this virus needs to be stopped in it’s tracks. The ideal scenario would be a whole island approach where it’s all isolated thus removing the anti-restrictions crowd’s main go to reason we can’t push for zero Covid. Even if it’s like NZ with tiny numbers of cases which are dealt with with the utmost seriousness, isolation and quarentine of all contacts etc then that would be close enough to zero to run the country as normal internally.

Excuses excuses is all I’m hearing, they would happily open up the country and kill large numbers of their country men and women in the process but make excuses when solutions are presented.

drunkmonkey

hmmm wrote: »

As you said yourself, the UK very quickly backed out of that plan once they realised it wouldn't work with this virus.

The UK plan currently is localised lockdowns to see them through to a vaccine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-54375643

How long is that sustainable, waiting on a vaccine? The vaccine is still a remote possibility, I think this idea we'll have one in a few months is pie in the sky.

3xh

hmmm wrote: »

As you said yourself, the UK very quickly backed out of that plan once they realised it wouldn't work with this virus.

The UK plan currently is localised lockdowns to see them through to a vaccine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-54375643

So the experts (who are still in place) got it wrong. Well f me.

No new epidemiology/immunity data could’ve come to light that week regarding herd immunity versus vaccines as other countries immediately went for lockdown. Someone or something spooked them with something other than science.

I’m aware of their 3-tier lockdown plan, thanks.

ShyMets

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

There is no guaranteed BREXIT is going to ensure an open border now the way things are looking, how would the posters who think for public health reasons where many would buy into it that it would be impossible - how would be handled if there is an actual hard border legally?

I am not for a hard border nor do I suggest preventing cross over lightly but this virus needs to be stopped in it’s tracks. The ideal scenario would be a whole island approach where it’s all isolated thus removing the anti-restrictions crowd’s main go to reason we can’t push for zero Covid. Even if it’s like NZ with tiny numbers of cases which are dealt with with the utmost seriousness, isolation and quarentine of all contacts etc then that would be close enough to zero to run the country as normal internally.

Excuses excuses is all I’m hearing, they would happily open up the country and kill large numbers of their country men and women in the process but make excuses when solutions are presented. Pathetic really.

Ok. History lesson. During the 70's, 80's & early 90's there was something called the Troubles on this island. What I gather from you're posts is that you're of an age that's too young to remember much of it.

During the Troubles the boarder was not exactly open. There was lots of scary men with guns patrolling. Here's the thing though, there is around 300 crossing points and couldn't patrol them all, so nasty people were able to slip through.

The same thing will happen with you're approach. We can not monitor every crossing

Don't Chute!

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

There is no guaranteed BREXIT is going to ensure an open border now the way things are looking, how would the posters who think for public health reasons where many would buy into it that it would be impossible - how would be handled if there is an actual hard border legally?

I am not for a hard border nor do I suggest preventing cross over lightly but this virus needs to be stopped in it’s tracks. The ideal scenario would be a whole island approach where it’s all isolated thus removing the anti-restrictions crowd’s main go to reason we can’t push for zero Covid. Even if it’s like NZ with tiny numbers of cases which are dealt with with the utmost seriousness, isolation and quarentine of all contacts etc then that would be close enough to zero to run the country as normal internally.

Excuses excuses is all I’m hearing, they would happily open up the country and kill large numbers of their country men and women in the process but make excuses when solutions are presented.

My wife hasn’t seen her parents or sister in Sweden for almost a year now. My daughter hasn’t seen her grandparents in Sweden for almost a year. My two best mates live in Sweden, I haven’t seen them in almost a year.
Just so I know, how long do your closed border policies last for? I just want to tell all of those people what to expect. 1 year? 2? 3? More?
In fact will you tell my wife? She would love to have a chat with you about it.

ShyMets

ShyMets wrote: »

Ok. History lesson. During the 70's, 80's & early 90's there was something called the Troubles on this island. What I gather from you're posts is that you're of an age that's too young to remember much of it.

During the Troubles the boarder was not exactly open. There was lots of scary men with guns patrolling. Here's the thing though, there is around 300 crossing points and couldn't patrol them all, so nasty people were able to slip through.

The same thing will happen with you're approach. We can not monitor every crossing

As I've already said, you permanently monitor the main route and have rotating check on the smaller ones. The vast majority of law abiding people will just not cross in this instance.

And yes I would only remember the end of the troubles but I am fully aware of them. This is very different, it is trying to prevent the spread of a deadly virus. People would be doing well to direct their border concerns at brexit rather than any temp covid measure.

Look its not going to happen as we dont have a person running the country who will make the hard decisions that was clear when NPHET's advise that we should go to level 5 was ignored and here we are time wasted and just delaying the reality that we will be moving to it sooner or later.

hmmm

3xh wrote: »

No new epidemiology/immunity data could’ve come to light that week regarding herd immunity versus vaccines as other countries immediately went for lockdown. Someone or something spooked them with something other than science.

If I remember correctly the UK's original plan had to be rapidly updated with new assumptions based on what they were seeing happening in Lombardy/Italy. Once they plugged in the new figures based on the experience in Italy they realised that hospitals would be over-run. Before that they were looking for population immunity through "natural" infections as I believe they had used a massive number for hidden asymptomatic infections which turned out to be over-optimistic.

Don't Chute!

Don't Chute! wrote: »

My wife hasn’t seen her parents or sister in Sweden for almost a year now. My daughter hasn’t seen her grandparents in Sweden for almost a year. My two best mates live in Sweden, I haven’t seen them in almost a year.
Just so I know, how long do your closed border policies last for? I just want to tell all of those people what to expect. 1 year? 2? 3? More?
In fact will you tell my wife? She would love to have a chat with you about it.

Look I am sorry for anyone who cannot call home to see parents etc but this is an unpredicted situation and its unfortunate that even as things stand and in particular with Sweden's insane policies for dealing with the virus it could be a long time before anyone will be allowed to travel there as thing stand.

To answer your questions above, it would take as long as it takes until we have a vaccine. Could be 6 months could be 2 years. I would also add that there would be allowances in my plan for going abroad for reasons such as a dying relative, a funeral etc but with monitored quarantine and testing on return. As the system was streamlined it could be considered to start allowing people from abroad to visit home for just seeing family especially if it looked to be going on for a long time. (but they would have to agree to monitored quarantine in a facility not at home, and only released after a number of clear tests across a time period long enough to ensure the virus would be detected if it the person picked it up).

hmmm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How long is that sustainable, waiting on a vaccine? The vaccine is still a remote possibility, I think this idea we'll have one in a few months is pie in the sky.

We're told it will take several months to manufacture and roll out completely (the UK is predicting about 10 months, the US a bit less), but we should know whether we have a working vaccine hopefully any time between end of October and year end - all depending on the trials and the numbers of people who get infected.

There are several promising vaccines nearing the end of testing - Pfizer, Moderna, Oxford, and J&J a small bit behind them. The Chinese have several in phase 3 already, with some being given to their military. At this stage I wouldn't describe the chances of a vaccine as "remote".

Pfizer & Oxford have already asked regulators to start reviewing trial data, which will shave another couple of months off the normal timeline.

ShyMets

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

As I've already said, you permanently monitor the main route and have rotating check on the smaller ones. The vast majority of law abiding people will just not cross in this instance.

And yes I would only remember the end of the troubles but I am fully aware of them. This is very different, it is trying to prevent the spread of a deadly virus. People would be doing well to direct their border concerns at brexit rather than any temp covid measure.

Look its not going to happen as we dont have a person running the country who will make the hard decisions that was clear when NPHET's advise that we should go to level 5 was ignored and here we are time wasted and just delaying the reality that we will be moving to it sooner or later.

During the Troubles they were fairly successful in patrolling the main routes. The problem was the smaller crossing of which the boarder consists manly off.

I dont believe rolling checks would be very successful. The locals in the various areas would these these crossings and would get to know timings of the rolling checks. Also this was tired during the Troubles without much success.

paw patrol

CruelSummer wrote: »

This paragraph was interesting in Leo's piece:
"Before we consider pushing the button on a circuit break, there are a few things we need to think through and questions we need to be able to answer.

For example, what's the objective? Is it to get to 200 cases a day, 100 cases a day or zero? And for how long?

What will we do to provide income support for those out of work yet again, and how can we ensure that businesses that have to close will survive to open another day?

Shutting shops and placing hundreds of thousands of people out of work was one of the hardest decisions I had to make as Taoiseach. It breaks my heart to think of it happening a second time.

Do we have a plan to reopen Ireland again if we get it right?"

this is reassuring in a way but months too late. Leo has that way about him all talk and the correct language...but he is all fur coat and no knickers.



i posted in this thread a while back a few times that there was no exit criteria to remove us from all measures and that government / NPHET had failed in their duty to the country by neglecting this crucial aspect of the plan. It's basic project management to have exit criteria / plan.


This has been brutal leadership by numpties paralyzed by fear and ineptitude. It's telling they have had no targets because the are afraid the public will hold them to the targets and demand action when targets are reached.