Would you be in favor of covid-19 fines in Ireland?

rtron

Say if a a burgaler breaks into your house and you have 6 people from another household already and the cops arrive on the seen.
Who would get the fine?

Ellie2008

pgj2015 wrote: »

As if that would ever happen.

I would be in favor of guards entering a house where there is a huge rave on.

The old dear having two friends over for coffee is high rush behaviour as all three are in a high risk group.

Not related to any above comment but it’s too easy to just blame young people & parties. The behaviour of some older people who are actually at risk leaves a lot to be desired. The way the virus works younger people are being asked to make sacrifices to protect the elderly & vulnerable. I think this is right but it needs to be acknowledged more. The vulnerable should protect themselves if everybody else is expected to.

McGiver

No, because this, no because that, some of the reasons are truly bizarre. I get the libertarian point of view - that gov shouldn't be trusted and I agree with that, however there is a pandemic and I trust there can be safeguards put in place so that the gov removes the measures once the pandemic is over. Frankly the other arguments are just ridiculous, basically saying we can't enforce the rule of law, because we can't enforce the rule of law!

The rest of the Europe just does it...too much talk, too much speculating going on here trying to find reasons why not.

McGiver

jester77 wrote: »

We have fines here in Hamburg, 10k fines handed out so far, 900k paid. No idea if it works, but nice bit of cash for the city to work with if nothing else.

Of course it works - that's why there are fines on non-compliance on many things. Anyone things if there were no fines or penalty points on speeding that there would be less non-compliance?

As I said - Europe countries just do it. That's what sound governance is all about. No wishy-washy stuff.

McGiver

pgj wrote:

I would be in favor of guards entering a house where there is a huge rave on.

I believe they already have that right under one legislation or another...

McGiver

The fines need to be just right. Not too high, not too low. Something like 50-100 quid. It has to hurt but it shouldn't be completely ruinous. If it's too low it the offenders will just pay it, if it's too high then then it may end in huge long legal battle.

scamalert

McGiver wrote: »

Of course it works - that's why there are fines on non-compliance on many things. Anyone things if there were no fines or penalty points on speeding that there would be less non-compliance?

As I said - Europe countries just do it. That's what sound governance is all about. No wishy-washy stuff.

that's a big mistake many Irish make comparing Ireland to Europe, in some parts of EU most would dread to get in radar of police for anything, they dont take light touch approach, Ireland on the other hand you get s slap on the wrist even if one does some crazy $hit where would they get years and $hit beaten out of them, if it was any other EU country, as they deal with scum with force and dont take it lightly either.


So saying guards need more power here or fines as big as 5-10k no one would care as no one would pay, and no one would do anything at the end of day. As simply theres been to many years where law in Ireland became nothing short of a joke, mainland europe hardly has anyone running with 100 suspended convictions.
On the other hand some should be happy, that guards dont take same approach as other countries do.

rtron

rtron wrote: »

Say if a a burgaler breaks into your house and you have 6 people from another household already and the cops arrive on the seen.
Who would get the fine?

The cops themselves, obviously, for knowingly joining a party already at it's socially restricted limit.

weldoninhio

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

Its refreshing to see the poll results pushing towards 70% in favour of fines. It just shows that there are a few posters who do an awful lot of anti-restrictions shouting and think they are the majority but the reality is quite different.

Fine are now being considered by government so hopefully it will actually happen.




Try parking in a disabled parking space and refuse to prove you are entitled to and see how you get on.

I have seen a number of shops turn people away for not wearing masks, Dunnes appear to be very on the ball about it and always have people on the door in the two stores I regularly go to.

You need a blue sticker to park in a disabled space, as per existing legislation.

weldoninhio

LillySV wrote: »

So you reckon rape and not abiding by restrictions are same thing ... jesas ....

No, I realise that laws and the burden of proof are the same things.

rtron

rtron wrote: »

Say if a a burgaler breaks into your house and you have 6 people from another household already and the cops arrive on the seen.
Who would get the fine?

I nominate this to win the prize for the most stupid question on the thread.

FintanMcluskey

pgj2015 wrote: »

As if that would ever happen.

I would be in favor of guards entering a house where there is a huge rave on.

Why could that not happen? I cant understand the thinking.

The fines must be impartial across all citizens, incorporating all the health recommendations, certaintly so for those most at risk.

If granny forgets and invites to many over it doesnt matter, she gets a fine. Likewise if her mask is on incorrectly.

Dont for 1 minute think, the law will be imposed in this case, on the scumbags that dont obey it in the 1st place

Strumms

Dravokivich wrote: »

You'll get people who won't pay and people who'll be compromised becuase they can't pay. Fines are not a deterrent.

Fines are a deterrent quite simply. In various aspects of life... wont pay ? They get summonsed to appear in front of a judge where the payment needed then will be simply be increased

Cant pay ? Then they need behave quite simply....wont pay.... jail.

Irish Aris

I think people overestimate the ability of the government and AGS to implement the whole fine system.
There simply isn't enough manpower to be everywhere, so they will have to target specific settings.

I think the only easy one would be masks. Interestingly enough I came back from a trip to my family in Greece and in the text message that I got to confirm the address the only bullet point that actually uses the wording "This is the Law" is the face coverings/masks, everything else is covered under "Public Health Advice".

Back in June, I had to travel between counties (from Meath to Dublin) for medical reasons while the 20k/county restrictions were still in place. In Dublin I passed by guards patrolling the street on a handful of occasion - and I didn't observe them stopping people randomly to check where they were travelling from - especially if people are walking on the street alone and/or observing all other measures like social distancing and mask wearing (where applicable). I think I happened in one occasion where guards approached a group of 4-5 people to check what was going on (didn't stay to watch what happened).

I think (and hope) the same will happen if fines are introduced - target the settings that can really make a difference.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/08/madrid-court-rejects-partial-lockdown-harmful-basic-rights-siding/

The Spanish high court have found the recent Madrid lockdowns unconstitutional.

Interestingly they still had bars and restaurants open.

Tenzor07

Strumms wrote: »

Fines are a deterrent quite simply. In various aspects of life... wont pay ? They get summonsed to appear in front of a judge where the payment needed then will be simply be increased
Cant pay ? Then they need behave quite simply....wont pay.... jail.

The fines issued have to be enforced or they are useless, that means more Gardai devoted to Policing the Covid restrictions. That means a bigger back end system of issuing fines, collection of fines, converting unpaid fines into court summonses, Gardai to issue summons in person depending on requirement, courts will also need to be in session every day of the week as the backlog of criminal cases will increase due to the Covid restrictions and the high numbers of cases before the courts...

So more Gardai off the streets and involved in dealing with fines, and less time for courts to deal with criminal cases.

Sounds easy right, and well worth it??

Strumms

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The fines issued have to be enforced or they are useless, that means more Gardai devoted to Policing the Covid restrictions. That means a bigger back end system of issuing fines, collection of fines, converting unpaid fines into court summonses, Gardai to issue summons in person depending on requirement, courts will also need to be in session every day of the week as the backlog of criminal cases will increase due to the Covid restrictions and the high numbers of cases before the courts...

So more Gardai off the streets and involved in dealing with fines, and less time for courts to deal with criminal cases.

Sounds easy right, and well worth it??

You are right... its not an ideal sceanario .

But NOT doing it means covid goes crazy... hospitals fùcked, lot of people ill or worse... in tough times tough decisions..

Tenzor07

Strumms wrote: »

You are right... its not an ideal sceanario .
But NOT doing it means covid goes crazy... hospitals fùcked, lot of people ill or worse... in tough times tough decisions..

My point was that it will cost a fortune to implement, more than will be recovered in fines, it will be a massive drain on the Courts and Gardai, diverting resources away from detection and punishment of serious crimes, wouldn't it be better spent in Education than punishment?
For example, someone with no mask on a Bus? Hand them a fresh mask costing 50cent instead of a €20 fine that will probably cos more to retrieve than €20.
Not to mention the appeals against these fines by the general public will again tie up even more state resources, and possible end up costing more when a fine is found not to be legal against an individual.

weldoninhio

Deleted User wrote: »

I nominate this to win the prize for the most stupid question on the thread.

100%, the sniff of actual criminals and you won't get a Garda anywhere near your house.

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

My point was that it will cost a fortune to implement, more than will be recovered in fines, it will be a massive drain on the Courts and Gardai, diverting resources away from detection and punishment of serious crimes, wouldn't it be better spent in Education than punishment?
For example, someone with no mask on a Bus? Hand them a fresh mask costing 50cent instead of a €20 fine that will probably cos more to retrieve than €20.
Not to mention the appeals against these fines by the general public will again tie up even more state resources, and possible end up costing more when a fine is found not to be legal against an individual.

Not all can be educated and not all will wear a mask even if offered one free. I agree soem discretion would be needed but anyone who refuses to wear a mask without a valid reason (medical) should not be allowed into indoor public areas.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Fines are a deterrent quite simply. In various aspects of life... wont pay ? They get summonsed to appear in front of a judge where the payment needed then will be simply be increased

Cant pay ? Then they need behave quite simply....wont pay.... jail.

In employment and won't pay? Reduction in tax credits.

Not in employment and won't pay? Reduction in welfare.

Found making non-essential travel outside your county? - Revocation of driving licence for 3 months and your insurer automatically notified.

Loss of driving licence or even loss of passport would be a big deterrent for some... where there is a will, there is a way. It doesn't always have to be cash.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

You need a blue sticker to park in a disabled space, as per existing legislation.

Exactly you need the correct blue badge which indicates why you (or your passenger) is entitled to use the parking spot. It gives no info on why at all.

No reason something similar could not not be used for those unable to wear a mask. Be it a letter from their doctor in the short term or a little card they have in their wallet in the longer term (if needed).

Tenzor07

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

Exactly you need the correct blue badge which indicates why you (or your passenger) is entitled to use the parking spot. It gives no info on why at all.
No reason something similar could not not be used for those unable to wear a mask. Be it a letter from their doctor in the short term or a little card they have in their wallet in the longer term (if needed).

Sure why stop there, could issue people with a little colored patch to stick onto their jackets, might be a solution that you'd be extremely happy with? I'm sure the medically disadvantaged people would really appreciate the identification of themselves with the new Government patch they have to wear.

pgj2015

Irish Aris wrote: »

I think people overestimate the ability of the government and AGS to implement the whole fine system.
There simply isn't enough manpower to be everywhere, so they will have to target specific settings.

I think the only easy one would be masks. Interestingly enough I came back from a trip to my family in Greece and in the text message that I got to confirm the address the only bullet point that actually uses the wording "This is the Law" is the face coverings/masks, everything else is covered under "Public Health Advice".

Back in June, I had to travel between counties (from Meath to Dublin) for medical reasons while the 20k/county restrictions were still in place. In Dublin I passed by guards patrolling the street on a handful of occasion - and I didn't observe them stopping people randomly to check where they were travelling from - especially if people are walking on the street alone and/or observing all other measures like social distancing and mask wearing (where applicable). I think I happened in one occasion where guards approached a group of 4-5 people to check what was going on (didn't stay to watch what happened).

I think (and hope) the same will happen if fines are introduced - target the settings that can really make a difference.

There is no need for AGS to be everywhere, give some fines out, word gets around and most people with a brain will comply from there on.

Tenzor07

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Sure why stop there, could issue people with a little colored patch to stick onto their jackets, might be a solution that you'd be extremely happy with? I'm sure the medically disadvantaged people would really appreciate the identification of themselves with the new Government patch they have to wear.

I read somewhere that the Asthma Society floated the idea of issuing a blue wrist bands to those who sent them in a letter from their Doctor verifying they could not wear a mask due to asthma / breathing difficulties. Its something that could be worn discreetly, when out and about.

Can't find any information on it though, so maybe it never got off the ground, but its not a bad idea.

(Though I beg to wonder why any asthmatic would take the risk of going maskless seeing as Covid is a respiratory illness ).

hynesie08

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

Exactly you need the correct blue badge which indicates why you (or your passenger) is entitled to use the parking spot. It gives no info on why at all.

No reason something similar could not not be used for those unable to wear a mask. Be it a letter from their doctor in the short term or a little card they have in their wallet in the longer term (if needed).

So army patrolling the border and a nice badge (maybe like a yellow star) to identify the weak in society........ Maybe Tony holohan could give his press updates from a high tower.

saabsaab

hynesie08 wrote: »

So army patrolling the border and a nice badge (maybe like a yellow star) to identify the weak in society........ Maybe Tony holohan could give his press updates from a high tower.

Ah now! It doesn't matter what colour the badge is and I'm sure those affected would be in favour of such instead of being asked to explain themselves all the time or told to go away.

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

So army patrolling the border and a nice badge (maybe like a yellow star) to identify the weak in society........ Maybe Tony holohan could give his press updates from a high tower.

Would you refer to someone who displays a blue wheelchair badge and uses disability parking spaces as "the weak in society"?

Tenzor07

Deleted User wrote: »

I read somewhere that the Asthma Society floated the idea of issuing a blue wrist bands to those who sent them in a letter from their Doctor verifying they could not wear a mask due to asthma / breathing difficulties. Its something that could be worn discreetly, when out and about.
Can't find any information on it though, so maybe it never got off the ground, but its not a bad idea.
(Though I beg to wonder why any asthmatic would take the risk of going maskless seeing as Covid is a respiratory illness ).

Blue bands and badges would be useless as they could be easily forged, borrowed, lost, forgotten, stolen even...

Someone with Asthma who's in active distress because of the condition definitely shouldn't be out in public.

Tenzor07

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Blue bands and badges would be useless as they could be easily forged, borrowed, lost, forgotten, stolen even...

Someone with Asthma who's in active distress because of the condition definitely shouldn't be out in public.

You can be out and about and become "in active distress".

"Blue badges" for parking work extremely well for the disabled, and while yes, they can be stolen or forged, you'll find most people will guard them with their life, as they are not easy to replace if that happens (I know, I have one). But we are not talking about parking spaces.

Another option could be a medic alert card that could be shown discreetly if stopped trying to enter a shop without a mask, or are questioned by a Guard. Even an app on your phone would also work.

Another symbol often used is the universal blue circle for diabetes. (Which many diabetics, including myself, have tattooed on my wrist.) Any EMT would recognise what it means, though I am not suggesting anyone get tattoos!

As I said before, where there is a will, there is a way. Its not a matter of identifying "the weak in society" or trying to shame them in some way. Its a matter finding a way to discreetly flag an exemption from mask wearing, if its medically certified by a doctor.