Would you be in favor of covid-19 fines in Ireland?

Tenzor07

Deleted User wrote: »

Another symbol often used is the universal blue circle for diabetes. (Which many diabetics, including myself, have tattooed on my wrist.) Any EMT would recognise what it means, though I am not suggesting anyone get tattoos!

As I said before, where there is a will, there is a way. Its not a matter of identifying "the weak in society" or trying to shame them in some way. Its a matter finding a way to discreetly flag an exemption from mask wearing, if its medically certified by a doctor.

Yes, would probably be crossing a line tattooing people that certain people on here would be a proud advocate of!

As for an App... well it took our Government 7 months to put together the Covid app and it's been plagued with various issues, I have no faith in them to deliver one for mask exemptions..

Tenzor07

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yes, would probably be crossing a line tattooing people that certain people on here would be a proud advocate of!

As for an App... well it took our Government 7 months to put together the Covid app and it's been plagued with various issues, I have no faith in them to deliver one for mask exemptions..

Maybe it is something that could be added to the already existing App.

Strumms

Deleted User wrote: »

In employment and won't pay? Reduction in tax credits.

Not in employment and won't pay? Reduction in welfare.

Found making non-essential travel outside your county? - Revocation of driving licence for 3 months and your insurer automatically notified.

Loss of driving licence or even loss of passport would be a big deterrent for some... where there is a will, there is a way. It doesn't always have to be cash.

It doesn’t have to be cash, I agree.

If you take someone’s passport ? I doubt many people envision themselves traveling any time soon. I’m not sure on the potential effectiveness of that if I’m honest.

Take driving license ? This could work... and I’d back that somebody caught driving from Wicklow to Waterford are turned around, there details taken and they become obligated to hand over their license at an appointed station, they become technically disqualified from driving. Again, there may need to be an update if the law at present can’t facilitate this...

Strumms

hynesie08 wrote: »

So army patrolling the border and a nice badge (maybe like a yellow star) to identify the weak in society........ Maybe Tony holohan could give his press updates from a high tower.

Not to identify weak people. But to identify those who have a legitimate health reason for not being medically able to wear one.

We got to focus on the words ‘ legitimate ‘ and ‘ health ‘...

ie. the crowd jumping face first into a psychologists armchair trying to obtain a letter to absolve them from being part of the solution won’t stand. Unless you have legitimately got a hall pass from a doctor you wear one...

ligerdub

Depressing thread. Interesting to see the potential for a Stalinist gulag mentality with so many people in this country. Mask zealots, the good guys in the school of compliance. Personal freedoms are to be set aside, and a harsh tone must be undertaken otherwise this deadly virus will surely end us all, and if you don't comply then I fully support the government in treating you as harshly as possible! Utterly pathetic.

This farce has to end and it has to end soon. If it has done anything good though it has shown us all the true character of some people, and when push comes to shove it's good to know who would happily comply with the oppressor to keep the people down.

owlbethere

Targeting anti maskers and travellers crossing county borders for fun is a bit too easy imo. It's an optics exercise. Implementing something for the sake of seen to be doing something. The biggest problem imo are isolation breakers.
-People with symptoms who are not self isolating.
-People waiting on tests and not isolating or restricting movements
-People identified as close contacts of positives and asked to isolate to slow the spread of the virus and not isolating
-People coming back from abroad/red list countries and not restricting their movements and keeping contacts low.

There has been some examples in the news over the past few weeks:
- a care worker identified as a close contact continued to go to work in a care home
- a bartender or bar owner with symptoms waiting on test results continuing to work (in roscommon)
- a couple coming back from holidays and going to a weekend away meeting x, y, z and causing many cases.
- another case highlighted by nhpet where someone was identified as a close contact and asked to isolate but didn't and attended to a party where many cases arose from that.

Look at all the trouble our government is doing to control the spread of the virus and slow it down. They are closing down businesses to control the spread but isolation breakers get a free pass causing a rise and spike in cases which the government and the health authorities are trying to manage. Other countries have fines or prison sentences for people not following the isolation guidelines. How is Ireland failing at this?

Tenzor07

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Sure why stop there, could issue people with a little colored patch to stick onto their jackets, might be a solution that you'd be extremely happy with? I'm sure the medically disadvantaged people would really appreciate the identification of themselves with the new Government patch they have to wear.

What utter sh1te.

I assume you are against blue badges for parking since there is no difference to what I proposed.

hynesie08

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

What utter sh1te.

I assume you are against blue badges for parking since there is no difference to what I proposed.

So, who would be allowed ask to see these badges? Just the gardai or would staff in the shops be allowed to ask.....

Tenzor07

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

What utter sh1te.

I assume you are against blue badges for parking since there is no difference to what I proposed.

You want identifying Tattoo's then instead eh?

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

So, who would be allowed ask to see these badges? Just the gardai or would staff in the shops be allowed to ask.....

Staff in shops obviously the same as they can ask for a blue badge now.

McGiver

Too much speculation. Just do it.

The whole Europe had/has retail & public transport operators policing mask compliance and it works. Garda stay on top of that - any hint of argument or hostility retrial is calling guards. Not a big deal FFS, its same like not letting heavily intoxicated or naked people in the shop.

You don't need to reinvent the wheel just so that it's Irish. There's absolutely nothing different, complex or specific about the situation here. It's all excuses due to laziness, cowardice and poor governance of the leaders.

Now, no fan of Martin (and despise FF), but he's certainly more bolder than Varadkar, came in July and finally introduced masks, something which the previous lot were unable to do for 4 months shítting their pants. If there's fines coming, I'd likely expect them from Martin than the previous lot.

McGiver

scamalert wrote:

that's a big mistake many Irish make comparing Ireland to Europe, in some parts of EU most would dread to get in radar of police for anything, they dont take light touch approach, Ireland on the other hand you get s slap on the wrist even if one does some crazy $hit where would they get years and $hit beaten out of them, if it was any other EU country, as they deal with scum with force and dont take it lightly either.

Not really the case, there's differences between countries but generally police are more strict but not as much as you say.

I'm a Continental, not an Islander, and lived in multiple countries, so I can compare.

The issue here is basically the government doesn't invest (resources and money) in proper law enforcement and the folks (also seen here) think that law enforcement can't be done at all (because it can't be done - circular logic and fatalism - and largely a myth) and these two reinforce each other in a spiral downwards. The fatalism of the folk is depressing...

Just start somewhere and demand enforcement of rules, it can be fixed eventually. Fines during Covid are a good opportunity to start.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

It doesn’t have to be cash, I agree.

If you take someone’s passport ? I doubt many people envision themselves traveling any time soon. I’m not sure on the potential effectiveness of that if I’m honest.

Take driving license ? This could work... and I’d back that somebody caught driving from Wicklow to Waterford are turned around, there details taken and they become obligated to hand over their license at an appointed station, they become technically disqualified from driving. Again, there may need to be an update if the law at present can’t facilitate this...

On driving licences, the legislation may need to be updated, but I presume there is something on the technical side that facilitates a ban immediately on the database if a judge can ban you in court on foot of a motoring offence.

On passports - you'd be surprised how many people whose only form of photo ID is a passport. Not having any form of ID can become very inconvenient.

I agree many are not travelling now, but there are plenty making bookings for 3/6 months from now. Maybe if the possibility of having their passport suspended for 3/6/12 months would be enough of a deterrent to make them behave in the interim.

Tenzor07

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe if the possibility of having their passport suspended for 3/6/12 months would be enough of a deterrent to make them behave in the interim.

You people really need to move to China, this country isn't a place for someone with those sort of ideas...

hynesie08

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

Staff in shops obviously the same as they can ask for a blue badge now.

I disagree with you on this for many reasons, but really, you've seen the anti mask headbangers that are floating around, do you really think some student doing 12 hours a week in centra should be the one standing up to Andy Dyson or his ilk? Even if you hire security, they don't really have much power beyond refusing you entry......

I'd be interested to see how they have the power to enforce the disability badge as well.....

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you refer to someone who displays a blue wheelchair badge and uses disability parking spaces as "the weak in society"?

They're frequently referred to as "amongst the most vulnerable in society"

Beechwoodspark

I would be in favour of a graduated system of fines starting at 50 and going up to 5000 for an individual and 100k for a business.

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

So, who would be allowed ask to see these badges? Just the gardai or would staff in the shops be allowed to ask.....

Yes, Gardai and a staff member of a business the unmasked person is attempting to enter. (Every business should have a nominated staff member with responsibility for covid compliance anyway).

Note: An exemption badge/card/app would not need to state why someone is exempt on it. So no invasion of privacy concerns. Its not stated anywhere on my parking "blue badge" why I have one. My disability is not visible. But by itself, the badge gives a visible indication that I have been medically assessed and certified as eligible to park in wheelchair parking spaces. No further questions or explanations needed.

A staff member in a shop asking someone to show something to prove they are exempt from wearing a mask is not so different from a staff member asking someone to produce proof of age when attempting to buy alcohol. Its not a big deal.

hmmm

hynesie08 wrote: »

I disagree with you on this for many reasons, but really, you've seen the anti mask headbangers that are floating around, do you really think some student doing 12 hours a week in centra should be the one standing up to Andy Dyson or his ilk? Even if you hire security, they don't really have much power beyond refusing you entry......

If a business is at risk of a large fine if an unmasked person is found on the premises it gives cover to the student. This sort of voluntary thing we have currently puts them in a very difficult position - it's easier to say nothing.

No mask, no entry. If you come in anyway the student should be able to ring the guards and get a fairly immediate response.

hynesie08

hmmm wrote: »

If a business is at risk of a large fine if an unmasked person is found on the premises it gives cover to the student. This sort of voluntary thing we have currently puts them in a very difficult position - it's easier to say nothing.

The onus should not be on businesses to police this, and staff should not be expected to put themselves at risk in those situations.

No mask, no entry. If you come in anyway the student should be able to ring the guards and get a fairly immediate response.

A perfectly reasonable statement that unfortunately is unrealistic to achieve......

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

The onus should not be on businesses to police this, and staff should not be expected to put themselves at risk in those situations.

...

They police the rules around alcohol and tobacco purchase.

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

I disagree with you on this for many reasons, but really, you've seen the anti mask headbangers that are floating around, do you really think some student doing 12 hours a week in centra should be the one standing up to Andy Dyson or his ilk? Even if you hire security, they don't really have much power beyond refusing you entry......

I'd be interested to see how they have the power to enforce the disability badge as well.....

Not sure if you're referring to the parking badge here, but they patrol the car parks in and around Blanchardstown Shopping Centre and if you park in a disability spot, without a badge the clampers will be there within minutes.

They've recently started patrolling the spaces in Liffey Valley too (finally after years of people abusing the spaces there.).

On the student in Centra, all they have to do is refuse service and refer to the manager on duty. If the unmasked person then refuses to show proof of exemption, put on a mask, or leave, then its time to call the Gardai.

Really, is NOT wearing a mask, worth so much hassle?

Happydays2020

Do they mean fining people who get Covid?

Tenzor07

hmmm wrote: »

No mask, no entry. If you come in anyway the student should be able to ring the guards and get a fairly immediate response.

Fantasies really going wild here tonight!

hmmm

hynesie08 wrote: »

The onus should not be on businesses to police this, and staff should not be expected to put themselves at risk in those situations.

The clearer the law is and the larger the fines are, the easier these things become for the shop to enforce.

hynesie08

Mallory Great Woodpecker wrote: »

They police the rules around alcohol and tobacco purchase.

That's actually a reasonable point nox, so let's use it.

How often have you seem someone grabbing cans who's already half cut? But it's just easier for the staff to serve them and let them go?

By law you're not supposed to sell to anyone who you suspect is buying for a minor, that doesn't always happen

You are supposed to check id on anyone you suspect of being under 25, I haven't been id'd since I was 20.

Most importantly, if you come up to my till/counter and I refuse, there's a physical barrier between us, you want staff to approach people who aren't wearing a mask during a respiratory disease pandemic and kick them out?

Staff are responsible for policing alcohol sales, but they won't do it in a way that puts themselves at risk, this is no different. .

My local Mace has no problem enforcing it.

.

hynesie08

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure if you're referring to the parking badge here, but they patrol the car parks in and around Blanchardstown Shopping Centre and if you park in a disability spot, without a badge the clampers will be there within minutes.

They've recently started patrolling the spaces in Liffey Valley too (finally after years of people abusing the spaces there.).

That's reasonable, the way they were describing it, staff at the shops were asking for proof of a blue badge and I was wondering about that....

On the student in Centra, all they have to do is refuse service and refer to the manager on duty. If the unmasked person then refuses to show proof of exemption, put on a mask, or leave, then its time to call the Gardai.

Really, is NOT wearing a mask, worth so much hassle?

I'm in favour of both masks and fines, but I feel like delegating the responsibility of enforcement to the shops (which realistically you're doing because calling a gardai is a futile exercise at the best of times) is the wrong way to go about it.

If you want to hire 2000 garda reserves to patrol, issue fines and do the paperwork........ More power to you.

My local Mace has no problem enforcing it.

Neither has my local spar, but it's a lot easier in local shops where they can bar you or call your ma......

Strumms

hynesie08 wrote: »

I disagree with you on this for many reasons, but really, you've seen the anti mask headbangers that are floating around, do you really think some student doing 12 hours a week in centra should be the one standing up to Andy Dyson or his ilk? Even if you hire security, they don't really have much power beyond refusing you entry......

I'd be interested to see how they have the power to enforce the disability badge as well.....

Refusing entry is grand. If I own a shop and didn’t want to allow a person enter as they were drunk and rude, I would not allow entry. See it with pubs and businesses all the time. So not allowing entry because no mask is ok

“Hi sir / madam, due to covid it’s the policy of the store that all staff, contractors and customers will wear a face covering properly for the entire duration of their time inside the store as well as adhering to social distancing. If you have a genuine medical reason as diagnosed by a relevant healthcare professional as to why you cannot wear a mask, I’d ask that you can provide the relevant paperwork in order for us to verify and note details for health / potential contact tracing reasons.”

Paperwork is provided...

“Thanks, just a polite reminder while shopping without your mask that you are to maintain one meter distance at all times from staff and fellow customers.

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

I'm in favour of both masks and fines, but I feel like delegating the responsibility of enforcement to the shops (which realistically you're doing because calling a gardai is a futile exercise at the best of times) is the wrong way to go about it.

I think you're over-thinking it.

It's already been pointed out that shops already "police" the sale of alcohol and cigarettes as it is now. Asking a customer to show proof of exemption to wear a mask in that setting is not so different to asking them to show proof of age to buy alcohol or cigarettes.

If someone employed to work in a shop is not up to the task of doing what is needed to remain within the law (i.e. not selling cigarettes or alcohol to minors) then maybe their employer needs to re-consider who they are hiring more carefully - and hire security.

(eta) One thing I did notice at my local Mace one day as I was waiting outside for my daughter, was that when challenged at the point of entry, the non-mask wearers did either one of two things. Grumbled a bit, tried on the "I forgot my mask" excuse, then when given their options (buy a mask or leave) they either pulled a mask out of a pocket or bag and put it on, or bought one and entered. Not a single one walked away.

No need to issue a fine, if there is no entry.