The NPHET leakgate

Dempo1

What a disturbing turn of events, the country was led to believe Tony Holohan went Rouge and Leo goes on a now discredited rampage.

It's now abundantly clear NPHET did absolutely nothing wrong, the Minister for Health was fully informed a meeting was taking place, The Taoiseach was in turn advised, this on Saturday.

Minister Donnelly spoken to before meeting on Sunday and advised of serious concerns NPHET had. The meeting ends at 3.30pm Sunday, Minister Donnelly spoken to again about conclusions of said meeting. Letter sent through formal channels & Taoiseach informed, followed by Leo and Eamonn Ryan.

Roll on Monday and Taoiseach, Leo express, shock, horror, dismay at not being fully briefed, Donnelly goes into hiding. A very dilberate undermining of NPHET commences and in particular Tony Holohan. The entire day taken up with panic, worry, concern and now it appears not because of anything NPHET did but actually because of Government stoking conspiracy Theories.

Taoiseach announces to the nation, Level 3 decided upon, still giving an impression NPHET were very naughty. Later that evening Donnelly continues the conspiracy not once admitting all of the leaders and he knew on Sunday what was going on.

Then the disgraceful and now clearing wrong outburst by Leo who persisted in the dillusion NPHET were at fault, no communication was offered and was particularly nasty and personal whilst filleting Tony Holohan.

So after 2 full days of absolute dishonesty, shameful discrediting of NPHET & Tony Holohan, is it time for Leo to Go. Its going to be fireworks today. Whatever your Political leaning, this is an appalling state of affairs, no wonder the country on tendethooks.

Balmed Out

Did nphet not announce they were recommending going to level 5 rather than advising the government privately. If so that was very wrong and was them engaging in games with the government.

smelly sock

I think communication between ENPHET and the Govt. is poor anyway.

We will end up at level 5 very soon. Tony Holohan is a bit of a loose cannon but he is correct on this one.

barryribs

Balmed Out wrote: »

Did nphet not announce they were recommending going to level 5 rather than advising the government privately. If so that was very wrong and was them engaging in games with the government.

My understanding is that nphet recommended going to level 5 directly to the government privately and this was leaked after the recommendation was made.
It's FF though, so I just read the news rather than waiting for them to announce anything.

Gooey Looey

Balmed Out wrote: »

Did nphet not announce they were recommending going to level 5 rather than advising the government privately. If so that was very wrong and was them engaging in games with the government.

Did they? Wasn't it the media that said that?

Dempo1

Balmed Out wrote: »

Did nphet not announce they were recommending going to level 5 rather than advising the government privately. If so that was very wrong and was them engaging in games with the government.

As more clearly reported now, the Minister for Health spoken to before and after meeting on Sunday, Holohan clearly saying all concerns shared with the Minister and Letter sent. Taoiseach immediately contacted who in turn contacted Leo & Ryan. Its now abundantly clear all knew full well on Sunday, Level 5 was being recommended. It is just not credible to suggest they were not, this makes Mondays behaviour by them all, the more outrageous and disgraceful.

Wanderer78

The economy is more important than......

VinLieger

Im not sure exactly who knew what and when yet as there doesnt seem to be any confirmed timeline of events, however NPHET leaking the level 5 recommendation on sunday evening was still an awful idea, it should have been discussed and prepped by government fully before going anywhere near the public.

Balmed Out

My understanding was nphet leakef it on Sunday to try to force tge government's hand. Hope your right as that would be very poor behaviour which led to a lot of panic on Monday.
I dont believe its nphets role to inform the public what they recommend to government, i dont think they had done so before and in doing so they were beyond their remit. The government have to weigh up more than just the health aspects.

crisco10

Dempo1 wrote: »

As more clearly reported now, the Minister for Health spoken to before and after meeting on Sunday, Holohan clearly saying all concerns shared with the Minister and Letter sent. Taoiseach immediately contacted who in turn contacted Leo & Ryan. Its now abundantly clear all knew full well on Sunday, Level 5 was being recommended. It is just not credible to suggest they were not, this makes Mondays behaviour by them all, the more outrageous and disgraceful.

Is the issue more about the leak though? Not the output of the meeting and internal comms of that.

Wouldn't surprise me if leak was governmental though..

Dempo1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The economy is more important than......

I agree but that's not the point here, there was a persistent attempt to undermine NPHET and Holohan. The Taoiseach could have released a statement saying advice had been received but for now Level 3 preferable. To permit the disgraceful events continue for almost 2 days is just disgraceful.

Wanderer78

Dempo1 wrote:

I agree but that's not the point here, there was a persistent attempt to undermine NPHET and Holohan. The Taoiseach could have released a statement saying advice had been received but for now Level 3 preferable. To permit the disgraceful events continue for almost 2 days is just disgraceful.

I'd imagine nphet is beginning to struggle to be heard, you can see the governments attention is moving more towards the economy now, this was always gonna happen, I suspect nphet is gonna continue to struggle from here on in, this could get messy

Dempo1

crisco10 wrote: »

Is the issue more about the leak though? Not the output of the meeting and internal comms of that.

Wouldn't surprise me if leak was governmental though..

Yes agreed but the leak was not a leak as such, the info was shared by a government minister to all the party leaders. If it were a leak as such, it was infact leaking the truth and its now abundantly clear the leak was not of NPHET "s doing. My issue is how it was spun and why the lies continued right up till Monday night with Leo's outrageous attacks on Monday night when he knew about level 5 on Sunday night as shared through appropriate channel. He persisted in representing a narrative that NPHET made no effort to share or communicate their concerns.

Bishop of hope

Public apathy has become the driver of the virus.
Doesn't matter as much as in the beginning anyway.
People drive the virus not the govt.

Dempo1

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Did they? Wasn't it the media that said that?

They announced nothing, it was government ministers spinning out of control from a leak not created by NPHET.

noodler

Dempo1 wrote: »

As more clearly reported now, the Minister for Health spoken to before and after meeting on Sunday, Holohan clearly saying all concerns shared with the Minister and Letter sent. Taoiseach immediately contacted who in turn contacted Leo & Ryan. Its now abundantly clear all knew full well on Sunday, Level 5 was being recommended. It is just not credible to suggest they were not, this makes Mondays behaviour by them all, the more outrageous and disgraceful.

No, it wasn't at all clear level five was going to be recommended.

Dempo1

crisco10 wrote: »

Is the issue more about the leak though? Not the output of the meeting and internal comms of that.

Wouldn't surprise me if leak was governmental though..

Sadly its turning out the leak may have actually been a government minister. What disgusts me is the impression then given all day Monday the leaders were not fully briefed. They were, Donnelly not only advised meeting to take place as early as Saturday, he in turned advised Taoiseach, Donnelly spoken to again before and after meeting Sunday and again all leaders notified Sunday afternoon.

sydthebeat

NPHET don't do public announcements

They are a government advisory group

JMNolan

noodler wrote: »

No, it wasn't at all clear level five was going to be recommended.

Agreed, in fact any comment I see is that NPHET "expressed their concerns". No mentioned or suggestion by anyone that over the weekend NPHET suggested to the government to move to level 5 restrictions. That is the crux of the issue, who leaked the level 5?

VinLieger

JMNolan wrote: »

Agreed, in fact any comment I see is that NPHET "expressed their concerns". No mentioned or suggestion by anyone that over the weekend NPHET suggested to the government to move to level 5 restrictions. That is the crux of the issue, who leaked the level 5?

NPHET seemed to take responsibility for leaking Level 5 on monday didn't they?

Wanderer78

smelly sock wrote:

Yes for the best part.

So should we ban all of them, or something?

Dempo1

VinLieger wrote: »

NPHET seemed to take responsibility for leaking Level 5 on monday didn't they?

Absolutely not, if you listen back to the press conference the opposite is true. The leak was not from NPHET and Holohan went as far as to say the leaker did not share NPHET "s objectives.

The narrative seems to be the leak is the actual problem, it is not, it is the fact Government knew about the level 5 recommendations on Sunday and spent all day Monday denying it, topped of by Leo's disgraceful behaviour on Monday night.

Varadkar grandstanding in order to garner cheap support from the public?

I stand aghast.

He's a runaway train.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

He's a runaway train.

Ah he's just not the sharpest, but you d be surprised how much support he got from such an act

Dempo1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Varadkar grandstanding in order to garner cheap support from the public?

I stand aghast.

He's a runaway train.

I can't see after this how he won't be encouraged to apologise.

Dempo1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah he's just not the sharpest, but you d be surprised how much support he got from such an act

Ironically yes, I heard some comments for Micheal Healy Rea which were hilla really. I genuinely get why business people would have supported Leo's childish outburst but it's now clear Leo wasn't concerned about them, he was more concerned about his own reputation and to date pretty shoddy performance since the new government formed.

Wanderer78

Dempo1 wrote:

Ironically yes, I heard some comments for Micheal Healy Rea which were hilla really. I genuinely get why business people would have supported Leo's childish outburst but it's now clear Leo wasn't concerned about them, he was more concerned about his own reputation and to date pretty shoddy performance since the new government formed.

Ah I wouldn't be bothered listening to the reas, life's too short, government typically is letting sme's out for the slaughter

JMNolan

Dempo1 wrote: »

The narrative seems to be the leak is the actual problem, it is not, it is the fact Government knew about the level 5 recommendations on Sunday and spent all day Monday denying it, topped of by Leo's disgraceful behaviour on Monday night.

I have yet to see a news article from anyone that says the government knew of the level 5 recommendation. All the news and reporters say is that they knew of "concerns". It was the level 5 recommendation that panicked the country last sunday, not the fact NPHET was "concerned".

JMNolan

Actually, here is the Irish Time

irish times wrote:

However, Dr Holohan confirmed on Wednesday evening that he had spoken with Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly on Sunday morning, before the meeting, and had shared his concerns and those of members of the team.

“We just discussed my concerns, the concerns I shared with him of the conversations I had had with a range of members of Nphet over the course of the preceding 24 hours,” he said.

Asked if he had indicated that a move to Level 5 could be in the offing, he said he wouldn’t pre-empt the outcome of the Nphet discussion “but I was very clear about the level of concern that I would have, and had”.

So government *didn't* know of level 5 recommendation. So, perhaps someone can explain it to me, how could the government have leaked the level 5 recommendation?

VinLieger

Dempo1 wrote: »

The narrative seems to be the leak is the actual problem, it is not, it is the fact Government knew about the level 5 recommendations on Sunday and spent all day Monday denying it, topped of by Leo's disgraceful behaviour on Monday night.

The leak is absolutely the problem because if it was from NPHET it was them as unelected advisors trying to force the governments hand but if it was from government it was them trying to make NPHET look bad and ultimately undermine public confidence in them.

smelly sock

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So should we ban all of them, or something?

No. Just be aware their motivations aren't always linked to public interests.

CIARAN_BOYLE

JMNolan wrote: »

Actually, here is the Irish Time



So government *didn't* know of level 5 recommendation. So, perhaps someone can explain it to me, how could the government have leaked the level 5 recommendation?

The leak was after the meeting.

Tony rang Donnelly after the meeting as well.

JMNolan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The leak was after the meeting.

Tony rang Donnelly after the meeting as well.

Ok, I see you are correct

"After the Nphet meeting the minister was informed for the first time that Nphet had recommended a move to Level 5."

Looks like it might have been young Donnelly or someone in government...

CIARAN_BOYLE

JMNolan wrote: »

Ok, so Tony rang Donnelly after the meeting to tell him of level 5 recommendation? Where can I read about that?

You can listen to the press briefing yesterday.

They went through the day in minute detail.

Tony rang in the morning. Tony explained his concerns. Tony went to nephet meeting. Nephet agreed level 5 recommendation. Tony rang Donnelly and told him about the recommendation. Tony went back to nephet to check that the letter written up was what was agreed. Tony signed letter and sent it to government and some civil service bodies.

Letter ended up with the media who declared Nephet recommends level 5.

is_that_so

Shouldn't this be in the Conspiracy theory forum?

Dempo1

JMNolan wrote: »

Actually, here is the Irish Time



So government *didn't* know of level 5 recommendation. So, perhaps someone can explain it to me, how could the government have leaked the level 5 recommendation?

Your assuming government didn't know about the level 5 recommendations, they did as has now been made abundantly clear. Stephen Donnelly was informed of the meetings findings after it ended and from there he made contact with Taoiseach, this on Sunday afternoon. Is it really credible to suggest Tony Holohan discussed the latest weather forecast after such an unprecedented Sunday meeting of NPHET.

Ultimately its not about leaks, its about a Government who've clearly attempted to undermine NPHET and persisted with this lie all the way upto Monday evening, infact they've yet to admit anything, instead blaming alleged lack of communication which it now turns out, Actually happened.

Dempo1

is_that_so wrote: »

Shouldn't this be in the Conspiracy theory forum?

No conspiracy, just the facts of what has actually occurred. Don't take my word, look back at the press confer yesterday and perhaps check out newspaper reports this morning and indeed morning Ireland.

Chips Lovell

Few things to note that may inform discussion on this issue. NPHET's recommendations are not intended to be private. They're published straight away on the Department of Health's website. So the letter sent recommending Level 5 on Sunday was published on Monday.

Any leaking that went on, whether by the government or members of NPHET, happened during the relatively short window between the letter being sent and the letter being published and was done in the knowledge that this information would be public very shortly anyway.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I believe the communication failure might be between cabinet.

Donnelly may be hearing from Holohan and failing to pass the message onto cabinet colleagues.

is_that_so

Dempo1 wrote: »

No conspiracy, just the facts of what has actually occurred. Don't take my word, look back at the press confer yesterday and perhaps check out newspaper reports this morning and indeed morning Ireland.

Letter sent, letter leaked, government blows a fuse, government rejects advice, government and NPHET kiss and make up! Apart from that I'm in the don't care column and the rest is borderline conspiracy.

VinLieger

Dempo1 wrote: »

Ultimately its not about leaks, its about a Government who've clearly attempted to undermine NPHET and persisted with this lie all the way upto Monday evening, infact they've yet to admit anything, instead blaming alleged lack of communication which it now turns out, Actually happened.

You've obviously got an axe to grind with FF/FG government and your jumping to a lot of conclusions, maybe take a step back.

It is 100% about the leak because that is what triggered everything after the fact.

If it was from NPHET government do still need to answer why they lied about not knowing about level 5 on Monday however it is also still possible as the leak was sunday evening the leak may have happened prior to government being made aware of the recommendation which is why we need a definitive timeline and you need to stop jumping to conclusions. Mainly in this scenario NPHET shouldn't be trying to influence Government in such underhanded ways.

If it was from Government they lied twice and are responsible for trying to undermine public confidence in NPHET which is grossly irresponsible at this moment in time and absolutely need to be held to account.

noodler

JMNolan wrote: »

Agreed, in fact any comment I see is that NPHET "expressed their concerns". No mentioned or suggestion by anyone that over the weekend NPHET suggested to the government to move to level 5 restrictions. That is the crux of the issue, who leaked the level 5?

All the media reported it as a NPHET source.


Never been much doubt it was them. You'd assume the top man

laserlad2010

Important to remember from where Donnelly's special advisors have been hired. Colette Sexton and Susan Mitchell both successful journalists prior to switching.

Dempo1

is_that_so wrote: »

Letter sent, letter leaked, government blows a fuse, government rejects advice, government and NPHET kiss and make up! Apart from that I'm in the don't care column and the rest is borderline conspiracy.

Your not getting the point of this Thread, forget about the leak for a second. This is about what occurred afterwards. In simple terms, Government claiming they knew nothing about the level 5 advice, worse still they proceeded to spin a disgrace narrative for almost 2 days that they had no communication from NPHET or Tony Holohan. No matter what we might think of leaks etc, the governments stance is and has been proven to be false. More appalling is the fact Leo then and knowing the facts, goes on national TV essentially throwing NPHET and more pointidly The CMO under a bus.

OK, let's assume government were upset, all they had to do was issue a brief statement on the recommendation on Sunday evening, explain to the nation they are considering the Advice, come out on Monday and agree a plan and get on with it. Instead they spin and spin and spin and I believe lied to the country. I can forgive confusion but this was a blatant attempt to undermine Tony Holohan , plain and simple and in a most calculated and devious way.

Heart Break Kid

Dempo1 wrote: »

Your not getting the point of this Thread,

People get the point, people don't care as much as you. Not sure if we can all agree to leave Dempo here to his own ramblings.

Chips Lovell

If NPHET's recommendations are going to be published (and, for transparency's sake I think it's right that they are) and if the government isn't going to follow them, then it is incumbent on them to give a fairly robust reasoning for not doing so. That's not throwing anyone under the bus.

Dempo1

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

People get the point, people don't care as much as you. Not sure if we can all agree to leave Dempo here to his own ramblings.

Your welcome not to contribute to this Thread, that's your choice but do take time to listen to claire Byrne shortly, it might enlighten you. This is not a ramble, as explained I've no political axe to grind but I do expect answers to what has occurred.

Dempo1

Chips Lovell wrote: »

If NPHET's recommendations are going to be published (and, for transparency's sake I think it's right that they are) and if the government isn't going to follow them, then it is incumbent on them to give a fairly robust reasoning for not doing so. That's not throwing anyone under the bus.

Just curious did you see Leo's performance on the Claire Byrne show, Monday night? Not just throwing someone under the bus, but reversing and doing it again slowly. His tantrum was based on lies essentially.

Chips Lovell

Why are you describing it as a tantrum? I don't think he raised his voice once. What were lies?

Colonel Claptrap

Dempo1 wrote: »

Ultimately its not about leaks, its about a Government who've clearly attempted to undermine NPHET and persisted with this lie all the way upto Monday evening, infact they've yet to admit anything, instead blaming alleged lack of communication which it now turns out, Actually happened.

Dempo1 wrote: »

Your not getting the point of this Thread, forget about the leak for a second. This is about what occurred afterwards.

Then why name this thread - The NPHET Leakgate?

Dempo1

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Why are you describing it as a tantrum? I don't think he raised his voice once. What were lies?

He openly admitted twice on Wed he was angry, very angry actually.

The lie is him clearly justifying his outburst on false information, namely...

Government were informed on Sunday night

Tony Holohan did not go on a solo run

NPHET did consider all the facts

NPHET did as it turns out put quite alot of thought into their decision.

I'm not bothered by the leak or indeed the decision but am at what transpired afterwards, namely government claiming they knew nothing, another whopper.