Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

kenmc

John Hutton wrote: »

Football, theater etc, is not the same as practicing your religion. No matter how much you enjoy sport you don't think it is a necessity which has wider implications for your soul and eternity.

Says who? Why is your pastime a necessity, but mine and others not? I really and truly believe in rugby, but I can't go to the RDS to watch my chosen team play. It's on TV, but no that's not the same, the banter in the stands isn't there, the ref can't hear us shouting at him to check for a knock on etc etc.

At the end of the day everyone has some hobby or activity which they think is important to them, vital even, and some of these folk are blinded to the fact that others see differently.

John Hutton

Mass banned again. Seems a bit mad that non essential retail remains open, yet religious worship, a constitutionally protected right, is banned again. I don't understand how it is supposedly unsafe to go into a massive church for Mass where everyone is socially distant etc, but it is safe to go into Grafton street today around all the shops for the sales. I don't necessarily want non essential shops shut but if its safe to traipse around buying perfume it is safe to go to Mass (far safer, and more controlled, I would argue).

As I've said a few times in this thread I didn't object to the idea of worship being banned for a short period of level 5, i.e. a full lockdown. But the levels don't seem to mean anything any more, I thought level 5 meant everything closed, which is fair enough, but now its changed there seems to be very little consistency or logic.

Vaccines don't start for 4 days even though we have some delivered, it's not as if there's a rush is it? Plenty of time for Donnelly the Trampoline to get a photo op in.

Dunfyy

The collection plates are getting low

The can have mass on zoom
As mass is mostly attended by high risk elderly to stop spread
You can't have masses

Bubbaclaus

The demographic that attends mass makes it as high risk as a nursing home.

Graces7

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The irony of somebody getting Covid while attending mass and praying to god that the sick are helped would be somewhat comical.

No it wouldn't. Nor would it be irony.

feargale

Graces7 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. Nor would it be irony.

Firstly, Grace you must understand that boards.ie has its fair share of yobs who like to indulge themselves with no real regard for the genuine concerns of human beings, who are gung ho about sacrificing charity to what passes them for wit. Remember the flooding at Lourdes a few years ago that resulted in the drowning of an old lady? I saw gloating on boards about that. One of the more decent ones (an agnostic) posted recently that Christians are more fun. I speak as a non- religious person.
On the question of opening churches, the government have imposed no restrictions that were not recommended by NPHET. As for closing non-essential shops, NPHET recommended that too, but the government have resisted it. By all means argue for the closure of non-essential shops, but their being opened is not an argument for opening churches at this worrying time.
I don't know why the government is waiting until Monday to start vaccinating, but again it is not an argument for opening churches.

Jim2007

Dunfyy wrote: »

The collection plates are getting low

It’s been many a day since a good collection was taken up. Guess you are living in the past then, if you think that.

Mrs OBumble

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

The demographic that attends mass makes it as high risk as a nursing home.

You obviously have no idea who actually attends any more.

uptherebels

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You obviously have no idea who actually attends any more.

Why don't you tell us about the age profile of mass goers in this country.

Manach

Dunfyy wrote: »

The can have mass on zoom
As mass is mostly attended by high risk elderly to stop spread
You can't have masses

You will find that almost every other country's church authorities manages to provide a safe evironment for masses. Given the core legal right to worship is embedded in European law, you will need a stronger arguement than hypoteticals and if-onlys.

feargale

Well, are you all happy now with the latitude afforded to worshippers over Christmas?

John Hutton

feargale wrote: »

Well, are you all happy now with the latitude afforded to worshippers over Christmas?

Small amounts of people going to mass didn't cause the massive rise, it was people piling into pubs, restaurants and visiting people. Or to be more precise, govt incompetence.


To pick out one, small, aspect of the reopening over Christmas and pin all the blame on that is hardly fair.



I note that in the North no ban on worship has been needed as the Bishops have voluntarily stopped public worship.

Mrs OBumble

feargale wrote: »

Well, are you all happy now with the latitude afforded to worshippers over Christmas?

Are you aware of any church-based clusters?

feargale

John Hutton wrote: »

Small amounts of people going to mass didn't cause the massive rise, it was people piling into pubs, restaurants and visiting people. Or to be more precise, govt incompetence.

To pick out one, small, aspect of the reopening over Christmas and pin all the blame on that is hardly fair.

I note that in the North no ban on worship has been needed as the Bishops have voluntarily stopped public worship.

I never said that the the bulk of the problem wasn't caused by revellers etc. I omitted them from my question because I didn't want to be accused of equating them with worshippers and thus having the question derailed. Wouldn't the epidemic be better addressed if there was less whataboutery and more of all of us doing our bit?

feargale

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Are you aware of any church-based clusters?

None whatsoever. I cannot prove a single case of church-based transmission. Is that a good reason to have no restrictions? It doesn't follow that it didn't happen. Are you aware that it didn't? People who have been scrupulously cautious have contracted covid, having no idea where it came from.

John Hutton wrote: »

Where is the evidence that Mass attendance is putting thousands of lives at risk?

Even now, twelve months later, there is alot that is not known about this virus. Nothing and nobody is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. As to what should or should not be done, I will defer to medical opinion, not to any Taoiseach or bishop.

Danno

feargale wrote: »

I will defer to medical opinion, not to any Taoiseach or bishop.

Medical opinion, for what it is "is an opinion" and will usually be biased by whether that person is holds a Taoiseach or a Bishop in high regard.

FWIW I'd hold neither.

sporina

What do the people of Boards make of this?

https://www.irishcatholic.com/gardai-fine-fr-pj-hughes-for-celebrating-public-mass/

Smee_Again

Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Real Donald Trump

Easy target

NIMAN

He broke the rules, deserves the fine.

We all have to abide by the rules, its no different for him.

Jim_Hodge

This has been an ongoing story for months.

You'll get people with his objections to particular restrictions in all walks of life.

Boards is littered with posters stating they are breaking rules they disagree with.

Real Donald Trump

NIMAN wrote: »

He broke the rules, deserves the fine.

We all have to abide by the rules, its no different for him.

These guys weren't fined, but that's hardly a surprise :rolleyes:


https://twitter.com/DrAdamAneevit/status/1362850488857882626

Red Silurian

Fair enough but 12,000 people flew into Dublin airport last week, are they all going to be chased up and fined where applicable?

sporina

personally, I can see why he would feel that mass should be allowed.. churches are big and we can go shopping, and work etc.. but I don't think its appropriate for a parish priest of behave the way he is.. I think he should be trying to support parishioners in how best to deal with the pandemic - find other ways to practice their religion.. a source of hope etc.. but he is been rebellious and causing a divide among people.. its an abuse of his position; only cares about his own agenda.. to me he seems fanatical..

LessOutragePlz

Real Donald Trump wrote: »

These guys weren't fined, but that's hardly a surprise :rolleyes:


https://twitter.com/DrAdamAneevit/status/1362850488857882626

The rules only apply to those that are targeted whent they break the rules, there has been zero consistency in the enforcement of the rules.

growleaves

I think he has a lot of courage. I would think that even if I didn't agree with him, though I do.

This is despite the fact that some legal experts have insisted that religious gatherings are not illegal.

"Show me a law that says I’m wrong."

The laws are ambiguous and could crumble under a legal ruling. I guess we'll find out.

Beasty

Threads merged

Red Silurian

Real Donald Trump wrote: »

These guys weren't fined, but that's hardly a surprise :rolleyes:


https://twitter.com/DrAdamAneevit/status/1362850488857882626

These guys broke the rules and should be fined along with those who organised funerals of 150, the ones who came over from the UK without a negative PCR least Christmas and the ones who attended the golfgate dinner... I accept they're never going to catch everybody but they'll probably catch me

Patches oHoulihan

Religion me arse in this day and age.
Way down the list of things that should open

JP Liz V1

A priest in Ireland who was fined €500 for saying Mass in front of 40 people has insisted that he will not pay the fine and claims that he would rather go to prison.

Fr. PJ Hughes, of Mullahoran parish in Co Cavan, was fined after he breached Ireland's Level 5 restrictions by celebrating Mass in front of dozens of people.

Places of worship have been closed since the end of December except for private prayer, but the Cavan priest said that he does not accept "the negative message" from the Government and public health bodies which he believes is telling people to "stray away from Jesus".

Fr. Hughes told the Irish Daily Mail that he can't take the Government seriously because they never make reference to God.

"We need to face up to the reality that God can help us, but there is no mention of that from the Government. We never hear them saying 'God help us' or 'with God’s help we will be over this,'" he said.

The Cavan priest said that the €500 fine didn't bother him and said that he didn't fear An Garda Síochána.

"I’m not afraid of people, I’m afraid of God," he said.

Fr. Hughes was cautioned in November for celebrating Mass with people in attendance during Level 5 restrictions. However, he continued to hold mass in-person as he believes he's "not offending God" and said that he will continue to say Mass with people in attendance.

"I am continuing with Masses… I am not going to pay the fine because I don’t think it is against the law.

"It is our constitutional right to celebrate our faith, I’m not going to pay the fine."

Fr. Hughes additionally said that he did not fear going to jail if he continued to celebrate Mass with people in attendance.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-priest-fined-celebrating-mass

BingCrosbee

Fr PJ was formerly a Fitter in Bord na Mona. Decent fellow.

kenmc

Fr. Hughes told the Irish Daily Mail that he can't take the Government seriously because they never make reference to God.

"We need to face up to the reality that God can help us, but there is no mention of that from the Government. We never hear them saying 'God help us' or 'with God’s help we will be over this,'" he said

Dafuq? Clearly his god doesn't give a flying fuk about anything to do with stopping covid. Same as all the other gods. Wonder why that is. Oh, maybe cos they're not real!

Twat. Put him to work in a covid ward sans PPE and see how afraid he is of it.

sporina

he's in cahoots with Gemma O'Doherty too - ekk

feargale

sporina wrote: »

he's in cahoots with Gemma O'Doherty too - ekk

Where did you get that?

sporina

feargale wrote: »

Where did you get that?[/QUOTE

he did a big interview with her back last winter.. video on her website.. there's a recent vid she did too about him and the latest fine..

Hotblack Desiato

different article, same gobdaw

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/covid-19-cavan-priest-vows-to-continue-saying-mass-despite-fine-1.4517171

“Why should I pay a fine for believing in God and celebrating the sacrament. No, I won’t pay any fine. The last time that happened Cromwell was here after Queen Elizabeth introduced the Penal Laws and then Cromwell tried to force them down people’s necks. He would pay people for reporting a priest and the priest had to say Mass behind a screen in case people might recognise him. I know my history” he said.

:rolleyes:

But “it’s in the Constitution. It’s a Catholic Constitution actually and states that we honour the Holy Trinity and now the Government, under the guidance of Nphet and Tony Holohan, have decided that the church is not a safe place. It’s one of the biggest places in every parish. Small shops are full, businesses are still going on but seemingly we don’t want God anymore.

“I don’t care what anyone else does. God is there or he’s not. If he’s not there then why don’t we just take him out of the Constitution and stop fooling ourselves? We either believe it or we don’t.”

Good idea, let's get all of that nonsense out of our constitution. The fetishisation of constitutions by some people is beyond bizarre. I thought they were bad in the US - thinking the "founding fathers" had some sort of divine insight, and supreme court judges second-guessing "what would the founding fathers do" when interpreting a 200+ year old document in relation to issues which DID NOT EXIST then - but it seems we have some here who have it bad, too.

A constitution is just a document, it can be changed, it can be replaced by a new one. That we've had to amend it nearly 40 times (almost half of those in the last 20 years) tells us there's a lot wrong with it. There is still the sectarian god nonsense in there and the woman's place in the home guff.

Yer man seems to think that not only is the pope infallible, so was de Valera.

You “go to any of the supermarkets, SuperValu, Centra, Aldi, whatever, Dunnes Stores, there’s queues of people outside and they’re full inside.”

There wouldn't be any queues outside if they were full inside. There are only queues because they are letting fewer people than usual in.

He agreed “of course its’s a killer disease but I also believe a report that came out there that nobody this year got the flu. There’s something wrong here. Of course people got the flu but it has been written down as Covid.”

That is a straight-up lie. I can see why he's pally with Gemma.

It’s okay for the people in Dublin, they have everything they need within the 5km, but down here you can’t restrict your movement to 5km – that restriction cannot be imposed down here. It’s not realistic.”

The 5km restriction is only for exercise, not travel with a reasonable excuse, shopping etc.
But here where I am in Dublin there is no beach, river or lake within 5km of me, no hill, mountain or wood.

sporina

era there is no point applying logic to his rants.. he seems v removed from reality.. I am sure The Bishop would get rid of him if he had someone to replace him with..

but I do not think he should be a parish priest - if it was any other profession he would be gone - dismissed.. but seems the church operates differently to everyone else..

feargale

I don't get this whataboutery over people going to shops and supermarkets. People have to eat. I'm in the happy position that I can get grocery deliveries. Not everybody is so fortunate.
As for the case that non-essential business is taking place while worship cannot, that is a case for shutting down the former, not opening up the latter.
Coming back to all this talk of infringement of religious freedom, again I reiterate that Mass was cancelled in places during the 2001 foot and mouth outbreak at the instigation of the Archbishop of Armagh. Why is it contended that the government is now restricting freedom of religion, but not the archbishop in 2001?

kenmc

There's no-one trying to impose restrictions on "freedom of religion". That just means that you're as entitled to idolise a flying unicorn who sprinkles invisible glitter as you are to worship a boy with an elephant head, a girl with 8 arms, a giant with a huge hammer or a zombie cannibal.

No-one will call to your door and throw you in jail for praying to a unicorn.

It doesn't mean that you have to all be let meet up in your little clubhouse to pray to your magic unicorn though, if it risks endangering public health by spreading a highly transmissible disease.


Restriction of freedom of religion would be saying "you can't go to your unicorn clubhouse, but those guys can go to their zombie clubhouse "
But of course logic wouldn't be high on the skillset methinks.

growleaves

sporina wrote: »

I am sure The Bishop would get rid of him if he had someone to replace him with..

Not at all. You can be almost certain that is not the case.

but I do not think he should be a parish priest - if it was any other profession he would be gone - dismissed.. but seems the church operates differently to everyone else..

Unless you can provide incontovertible proof that the restrictions are a part of Catholic dogma, there is no way he would be dismissed. The Catholic church isn't a call centre.

Rosita

kenmc wrote: »

There's no-one trying to impose restrictions on "freedom of religion".

.

That's arguable. Part and parcel of many freedoms is the right to do whatever it is in a particular setting. Many want pubs open even though they can drink away to their heart's content at home. Many want gyms to open even though they can do a fair bit outside a gym.

I don't gave much of an issue with restrictions personally, on the assumption they'll eventually end, but I do understand the angles people take when pitching an argument.

Is closing churches imposing restrictions on freedom of religion? Yes. It's not stopping people being religious but it is restricting how it's done.

Is closing pubs imposing restrictions on freedom of socialising? Yes. Not stopping people drinking but closing off a significant avenue through which it's done.

Is closing gyms imposing restrictions on the right to exercise. Yes - it's not preventing people exercising but it's putting restrictions on it. If there was no difference nobody would join a gym.

feargale

kenmc wrote: »

There's no-one trying to impose restrictions on "freedom of religion". That just means that you're as entitled to idolise a flying unicorn who sprinkles invisible glitter as you are to worship a boy with an elephant head, a girl with 8 arms, a giant with a huge hammer or a zombie cannibal.

No-one will call to your door and throw you in jail for praying to a unicorn.

It doesn't mean that you have to all be let meet up in your little clubhouse to pray to your magic unicorn though, if it risks endangering public health by spreading a highly transmissible disease.


Restriction of freedom of religion would be saying "you can't go to your unicorn clubhouse, but those guys can go to their zombie clubhouse "
But of course logic wouldn't be high on the skillset methinks.

This is a discussion about covid restrictions, not a debate on people's religious beliefs. Snide, schoolboy remarks from one side or the other are calculated to generate heat rather than light, and tend to suggest that there are people who are less concerned with the community's welfare than with scoring cheap points. The Enlightenment was intended to bring more, not less tolerance to the world. By all means indulge your hobby horse, but it would be better done in the usual echo chamber forum rather than here.

Beasty

feargale wrote: »

This is a discussion about covid restrictions, not a debate on people's religious beliefs. Snide, schoolboy remarks from one side or the other are calculated to generate heat rather than light, and tend to suggest that there are people who are less concerned with the community's welfare than with scoring cheap points. The Enlightenment was intended to bring more, not less tolerance to the world. By all means indulge your hobby horse, but it would be better done in the usual echo chamber forum rather than here.

If you have a problem with a post or poster report it and leave the modding to the mods

sporina

I don't think this priest has the parishioner's best interests at heart.. seems to me like a control issue with him.. a shift in power.. he clearly has a problem with the guards, the government, referring to them as communists.. .. the GAA... etc.. no one is preventing him from saying mass or practicing his religion..

Such an inappropriate way for a parish priest to behave..
He should be providing solace for his parishioner's, encouraging them to use other means in which to practice their religion (while adhering to the restrictions - for their own safety and others); instead he is making a stressful situation even worse...

I know he use to work in South America.. maybe this kind of behaviour was tolerated there...

I feel sorry for the people of his parish.

Hotblack Desiato

Seems he's been down way too many internet rabbit holes and being interviewed by GO'D (not his boss :pac: ) ties in with that

Some people will believe anything they read, apparently...

So he said he won't pay the penalty, what happens then? Will the Gardai / DPP really go after him? I doubt it. They should but they won't.

sporina

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Seems he's been down way too many internet rabbit holes and being interviewed by GO'D (not his boss :pac: ) ties in with that

Some people will believe anything they read, apparently...

So he said he won't pay the penalty, what happens then? Will the Gardai / DPP really go after him? I doubt it. They should but they won't.

i'd love to know more about him... about his time in South America etc...
He was giving out at mass about the GAA long before Covid..
I am not sure if he can be sent to prison..
I really don't think he should be a parish priest here though..

Hotblack Desiato

Real Donald Trump wrote: »

Easy target

Yeah, the gardai don't bother targeting people who obey the law because it's very hard to prosecute them.

Hotblack Desiato

BingCrosbee wrote: »

Fr PJ was formerly a Fitter in Bord na Mona. Decent fellow.

A few briquettes short of a bale, if you ask me.

Sporina, what is/was his beef with the GAA do you know?

sporina

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A few briquettes short of a bale, if you ask me.

Sporina, what is/was his beef with the GAA do you know?

can't just rem now.. something about the times of matches/training clashing with mass times I think - or something along those lines anyway...

I did watch the interview he did with G'O'D (thats mad - she must think she is one) a while ago - The GAA wer mentioned in that too.. along with everyone else.. its on her website.. interesting listening - a psychologist would have a field day..

Hotblack Desiato

Just a tad hypocritical that he thinks other people's favoured activity should shut down to suit him, isn't it :pac: