Dying with Dignity Bill

NewRed2

The bill will be kicked around anyway so I wouldn't be getting into pointless debates about nitty gritty but I'm chuffed that it got through and now we wait and see what happens next.
It's a wonderful first step so lets celebrate it. For now.
Leave it at that.

Parabellum9

John Hutton wrote: »

Why don't you explain where I have gone wrong in my understanding of the following? It means what I said it did.

I don’t see any “gotcha” in that text, it’s clearly distinguishing in b) that progressive illness for which there is short term relief does not mean there is a long term relief or that it makes the condition reversible as per point A.

1990sman

yay another gate to hell for ireland

well done

nj27

Hopefully this sees steady progression and isn't just pinball-ed around until the end of time.

nj27 wrote: »

Loathe the libby victimisation name they put on it, but yeah if you want out nobody should stop. Really hate the libby name on it.

Who is libby and what is your grievance with her?

Tork

It's a step in the right direction though I fear it won't get passed in the end.

I had to stand by and watch someone close to me die horribly for an entire month. Hearing people talk about it being God's will, there are alternatives, mental health, drugs that can help etc. make my blood boil. There are some conditions that no drugs or prayers or soothing words can help.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Please please, let this happen. I already know that I want to decide when I go but if it was legalised, I wouldn’t have to employ guesswork and suffer failed attempts. I’ve heard people say assisted suicide shouldn’t be legalised because suicide is “easy” so people can just do that. No, it must certainly isn’t. The most foolproof methods are the violent ones. Why should anyone have to resort to that? Things like pills are usually ineffective.

Same as abortion or gay marriage- those with a moral objection wont be forced to do it

Same as abortion or gay marriage- they will still fill thread after thread with identikit posts covering their deep concerns that adults might control their own decisions.

Bewildering instinct, one really does wonder when the church will give up their stance on these things and start to form a modern body of opinion and a space for itself that befits its relevance to the general population- a small, quiet space.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

1990sman wrote: »

yay another gate to hell for ireland

well done

Well, I don’t believe in hell, so I don’t care if some punter thinks I’m going there for ending my suffering.

1990sman

the hell u learn about in school is just a mild cartoon metaphor for what society can, and has in the past, become. the problems with these measures have nothing to do with religion.


the heartstring angle of this early effort is quite clever and often reiterated in genuine cases, however one would have to be quite naive or plain stupid not to see where these things lead.

osarusan

1990sman wrote: »

however one would have to be quite naive or plain stupid not to see where these things lead.

Educate me...where will it lead?

GooglePlus

Imagine what it must be like stuck in limbo waiting for death and spending your final time in absolute agony while your family have to watch the once strong, happy person in their life reduced to ****ing themselves on a HSE provided palliative bed that has to be put in the family sitting room for ease of access. Family coming by to pay their respects to a shell on a bed and seeing someone you love in their most vulnerable state.

That's a horrible way to go and if I had a choice, I'd want to go on my terms not the terms of the fairytale man in the sky.

Gruffalux

On certain levels I have serious reservations about euthanasia, it is very sad and it is undoubtedly open to abuse via pressure or neglect, and in other jurisdictions the qualifying requirements have been made very broad and, to my mind, unconscionable. But my father wanted it desperately and because it was not available he had to put in a good few years of terrible, inhuman suffering. On his behalf I support it.

Mules

There was a case that came before the courts recently in Holland. A woman said to her family if she was diagnosed with dementia she would want to be euthanized. Anyway she did get dementia but changed her mind about being euthanized. She was forcibly held down and given a lethal injection by doctors because the argument was that as she had dementia she wasn't capable of making an informed decision. The doctor was tried but acquitted.

My point is that we have to be very careful if we do legalise it that we don't go down that road.

TP_CM

I wonder how the No voters would vote if this option was already available and the government was proposing to take it away from people who are suffering deeply.

Trouser Snake

nj27 wrote: »

Loathe the libby victimisation name they put on it, but yeah if you want out nobody should stop. Really hate the libby name on it.

It's terrible, why not just call it Euthanasia Bill ffs?

osarusan

Mules wrote: »

There was a case that came before the courts recently in Holland. A woman said to her family if she was diagnosed with dementia she would want to be euthanized. Anyway she did get dementia but changed her mind about being euthanized. She was forcibly held down and given a lethal injection by doctors because the argument was that as she had dementia she wasn't capable of making an informed decision. The doctor was tried but acquitted.

My point is that we have to be very careful if we do legalise it that we don't go down that road.

I don't think that's a great description of what happened. The woman had previously expressed her wish to die - Dutch law allows people to request assisted suicide in the event of certain things happening in their future, such as dementia.

She was given a sedative to put her to sleep so the assisted suicide could be carried out, but woke up for some reason, and when a person with dementia wakes up to be surrounded by family members and doctors, they are going to be confused and panicked. That was the only suggestion that she had 'changed her mind.'

But certainly, these kinds of advance healthcare directives will be some of the thorniest issues to solve. If a person has previously expressed a clear desire to die in the event of the development of dementia, but then their dementia causes them to have no memory of having ever expressed that desire...what should happen then.

The bill that passed the Dail had no reference to advance healthcare directives anyway, although, as I quoted above, some wording does seem to cater for those with diminished capacity.

Guy:Incognito

1990sman wrote: »

yay another gate to hell for ireland

well done

Good thing the gate leads to made up nonsense.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Same as abortion or gay marriage- those with a moral objection wont be forced to do it

Are you sure? I know theyve been totally silent about the claims since the 2 referendums because their claims have been shown to be what every right thinking person already knew, that they were complete rubbish, but when has a complete lack of evidence or any actions they said would happened , happened, stopped them making them again?

looksee

Trouser Snake wrote: »

It's terrible, why not just call it Euthanasia Bill ffs?

Yes, you are really not into euphemisms, are you?

Conor Bourke

Im hugely conflicted about this Bill. I would love to see state funding (as opposed to heavy reliance on voluntary organisations) being pushed to improve access to high quality specialist palliative care and to normalise conversations about end of life care preferences in Irish society. There is a huge disparity between what I see online “I want to chose when I’m ready to go, I don’t want my loved one to suffer” and what I meet in real life where people or their families on their behalf push and push for relentless health interventions and treatments that will likely not work or will possibly prolong life at the expense of quality and the abject horror at suggestions to move to a focus on comfort and quality. There is so much fear of hospices and the concept of palliative care is wrongly understood by most to be just another name for end of life care.

I have witnessed immeasurable suffering but within that have seen the meaningful time that people have still had and how much they and their loved ones cherished it, no matter how small. I’ve also seen people live miraculously well after an initially devastating life limiting prognosis had been initially given. There is a potential for a huge loss of the humanity of living with illness but I know that’s not the case for everyone.

How to legislate for that? I have no idea.

suicide_circus

Trouser Snake wrote: »

It's terrible, why not just call it Euthanasia Bill ffs?

It's called 'marketing', dear.

screamer

I have zero issue with this. Having watched family members wasting away to cancer, in pain, and robbing us all of memories of them in healthy and happy times, all to end in death ultimately, I’d fully support people having a choice not to endure those painful last few weeks if they don’t want to.
It is their life, their suffering and their choice ultimately, they should be given the option to decide what they want for themselves.

suicide_circus

Suicide has a long history as the honourable/dignified thing to do.

I heard the head of Pieta House on Newstalk the other day opposing this Bill. Essentially their life's work is promoting the idea that suicide is never the answer. Well sometimes it is the answer.

Mules

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Are you sure? I know theyve been totally silent about the claims since the 2 referendums because their claims have been shown to be what every right thinking person already knew, that they were complete rubbish, but when has a complete lack of evidence or any actions they said would happened , happened, stopped them making them again?

A bit of tolerance for people who have different opinions than you makes life a lot easier. The people who voted no on abortion did it because they thought it was the compassionate decision, just like those who voted yes also thought it was the compassionate decision. Life isn't black and white. Decisions on morality isn't a case of right or wrong thinking people, everyone had had different experiences in life and they colour our opinions and choices.

JustAThought

How can such a significant and morally complex and worrying bill have gone so
far through with virtually no media coverage or public debate?

Cornelius Crow

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

Im hugely conflicted about this Bill. I would love to see state funding (as opposed to heavy reliance on voluntary organisations) being pushed to improve access to high quality specialist palliative care and to normalise conversations about end of life care preferences in Irish society. There is a huge disparity between what I see online “I want to chose when I’m ready to go, I don’t want my loved one to suffer” and what I meet in real life where people or their families on their behalf push and push for relentless health interventions and treatments that will likely not work or will possibly prolong life at the expense of quality and the abject horror at suggestions to move to a focus on comfort and quality. There is so much fear of hospices and the concept of palliative care is wrongly understood by most to be just another name for end of life care.

I have witnessed immeasurable suffering but within that have seen the meaningful time that people have still had and how much they and their loved ones cherished it, no matter how small. I’ve also seen people live miraculously well after an initially devastating life limiting prognosis had been initially given. There is a potential for a huge loss of the humanity of living with illness but I know that’s not the case for everyone.

How to legislate for that? I have no idea.

With the greatest of respect, your anecdotes mean the square root of nothing.

GooglePlus

JustAThought wrote: »

How can such a significant and morally complex and worrying bill have gone so
far through with virtually no media coverage or public debate?

Covid is the page filler for now.

John Hutton

suicide_circus wrote: »

Suicide has a long history as the honourable/dignified thing to do.

I heard the head of Pieta House on Newstalk the other day opposing this Bill. Essentially their life's work is promoting the idea that suicide is never the answer. Well sometimes it is the answer.

At least you are upfront and honest about it I respect that. Most people will dress this up

Mules

JustAThought wrote: »

How can such a significant and morally complex and worrying bill have gone so
far through with virtually no media coverage or public debate?

It surprised me too but like other votes the media will advocate for a certain position anyway and emotive stories rather than facts will swing any vote that is held.

Mules

suicide_circus wrote: »

Suicide has a long history as the honourable/dignified thing to do.

I heard the head of Pieta House on Newstalk the other day opposing this Bill. Essentially their life's work is promoting the idea that suicide is never the answer. Well sometimes it is the answer.

I'd say they are worried that if it legalised it could later be extended to suicidal people, as it has in other countries.

I'm not opposed to people ending their life, it's up to them. The involvement of doctors and the state makes me uneasy though. I wouldn't trust that relatives would keep out of the decision making process either. Its definitely grey rather than black and white.