Dying with Dignity Bill

freshpopcorn

Mules wrote: »

I'd say they are worried that if it legalised it could later be extended to suicidal people, as it has in other countries.

I'm not opposed to people ending their life, it's up to them. The involvement of doctors and the state makes me uneasy though. I wouldn't trust that relatives would keep out of the decision making process either. Its definitely grey rather than black and white.

The lady who founded it also had an issue with abortion and may be a tad conservative in some way.
Who do you suggest will be involved in it if doctors and the state make you uneasy?

circadian

nj27 wrote: »

Loathe the libby victimisation name they put on it, but yeah if you want out nobody should stop. Really hate the libby name on it.

Libby? Did Libby Kennedy propose this bill? 2020 gets weirder by the day.

Mules

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The lady who founded it also had an issue with abortion and may be a tad conservative in some way.
Who do you suggest will be involved in it if doctors and the state make you uneasy?

I'd be happy for the person to do it themselves but they'd have to get the drugs from somewhere. The problem is that without those drugs suicide can fail and the person can be left very badly brain damaged. Hanging can be a disaster when it goes wrong for example. So my idea is impractical.

I'd have to do a lot of thinking on how to vote if it did go to a vote. I always find these sort of decisions very difficult.

Creol1

JustAThought wrote: »

How can such a significant and morally complex and worrying bill have gone so
far through with virtually no media coverage or public debate?

Because we are in a middle of a pandemic spiralling out of control and public attention is necessarily elsewhere. There will be no opportunity for the level of public debate that such a radical and fundamental change demands. Which suits some people fine.

Creol1

screamer wrote: »

I have zero issue with this. Having watched family members wasting away to cancer, in pain, and robbing us all of memories of them in healthy and happy times, all to end in death ultimately, I’d fully support people having a choice not to endure those painful last few weeks if they don’t want to.
It is their life, their suffering and their choice ultimately, they should be given the option to decide what they want for themselves.

The Bill actually makes no reference to pain whatsoever.

Creol1

Deleted User wrote: »

Why?

I have an elevated chance of getting both Parkinson's, and Alzheimers (through my extreme form of essential tremor). If I do get either or both of them, then I should have the chance to end it. My choice. Dying with dignity, rather than wasting away, pulling my family through hell.


I honestly don't get opinions like yours.

You would. The law doesn't criminalise suicide or attempted suicide. Nor does it criminalise withdrawal of life-saving treatment at the patient's request. The law places no restriction on a person's ability to end his/her own life. It only restricts the involvement of third parties.

Mules

I think withdrawal of treatment and a sh*tload of painkillers (if there is pain) might be the best. It's the involvement of a third party that I'm not keen on.

For example, giving cpr to the very elderly leaves very unpleasant injuries and causes a lot of damage. I'm not saying their lives are worth less than anyone else though and the thing is that the closer someone comes to death, often their will to live gets stronger. Living wills are the way to go imo.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

It's a good start, and a positive step forward for our country if it gets through.

I would like to eventually see it extended to non-terminally ill citizens as well though. But I think that's a battle for another time in the future.

iamwhoiam

Mules wrote: »

I think withdrawal of treatment and a sh*tload of painkillers (if there is pain) might be the best. It's the involvement of a third party that I'm not keen on.

That is already being done . It is not always the answer for a multiple of reasons

osarusan

If somebody doesn't have an issue with suicide in principle, I don't really see why there's would be an issue with bringing in medical staff and medical drugs to assist and ensure that the suicide takes place as smoothly and painlessly as possible.

Hellrazer

1990sman wrote: »

yay another gate to hell for ireland

well done

This sounds like a throwback to the Catholic run era of Ireland.

FFS 40 years ago condoms were illegal. Look at us now - Gay Marriage, Abortion,Divorce and now the right to end your own life if you are terminally ill --all inside the last 25 years.

We`ve come a long way and really have shoved it up the churchs ass.

I really hope this makes it into law. Ive seen too many people suffering and just lying around waiting to die when they could have had a way out.

Vic_08

John Hutton wrote: »

At least you are upfront and honest about it I respect that. Most people will dress this up

You mean the way you have used handwringing about suicidal people as a front to push your catholic ideology on this topic?

Time for you to be honest: there are no circumstances under which you would be happy for assisted suicide to take place because your religion forbids it, everything else you say is justification for furthering those beliefs not genuine arguments in themselves.

Of course then we get into the perennial issue of true believers who cannot seem to keep their faith to themselves, why do you think you should have the right to foist your beliefs onto those who do not belong to your cult?

biko

Suicide was de-criminalised in 1993 so there isn't any need for this bill as it's just a suicide bill wrapped up in a fancy name.

Galwayguy35

I hope it does pass.

Personally if I ended up with some disease where there was no hope of recovery its an option I would like to have and don't want any clergyman or politician telling me I can't do what I think is right for myself.

uptherebels

biko wrote: »

Suicide was de-criminalised in 1993 so there isn't any need for this bill as it's just a suicide bill wrapped up in a fancy name.

You do understand the difference between assisted suicide and suicide?

Loafing Oaf

Mules wrote: »

It surprised me too but like other votes the media will advocate for a certain position anyway and emotive stories rather than facts will swing any vote that is held.

I'm not seeing why there needs to be a referendum but Gino Kenny says it may be necessary and presumably he'd know
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/referendum-may-be-needed-for-dying-with-dignity-bill-says-gino-kenny-1.4376033

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

1990sman wrote: »

the hell u learn about in school is just a mild cartoon metaphor for what society can, and has in the past, become. the problems with these measures have nothing to do with religion.


the heartstring angle of this early effort is quite clever and often reiterated in genuine cases, however one would have to be quite naive or plain stupid not to see where these things lead.

It's okay, a flaming holy bush out in my back garden, told me everything was going to be okay and not to worry about the future!

This is irrefutable fact, so hopefully this should put your mind at ease!

Mules

osarusan wrote: »

If somebody doesn't have an issue with suicide in principle, I don't really see why there's would be an issue with bringing in medical staff and medical drugs to assist and ensure that the suicide takes place as smoothly and painlessly as possible.

I think it might be that giving other people the power to legally kill doesn't sit right with me. I'd be nervous that the sick or elderly might be pressured in to it. I don't know though, I just feel its better for people to do it themselves. At least you know then that they really want to do it.

But then there's the problem of it going wrong. I know you can buy drugs over the internet from euthanasia organisations (the same stuff the doctors use) so presumably they would work. Maybe importing the drugs could be legalised. Of course it wouldn't be regulated then so that's problematic too.

Loafing Oaf

biko wrote: »

Suicide was de-criminalised in 1993 so there isn't any need for this bill as it's just a suicide bill wrapped up in a fancy name.

Aiding and abetting a suicide is a crime under that very law

Mules

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I'm not seeing why there needs to be a referendum but Gino Kenny says it may be necessary and presumably he'd know
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/referendum-may-be-needed-for-dying-with-dignity-bill-says-gino-kenny-1.4376033

I doubt the government would want to legislate for it without a public vote. It seems too important a decision not to give people a say.

JustAThought

So a doctor who has sworn to do no harm and who has dedicated their training and career/ life to helping people is now - with the nurses and carers - going to be part of killing someone regardless of their faith or beliefs or personal values.

Nobody involves wants to hold a
pillow down over their lived ones faces and suffocate them for 3 minutes or collect pills and give them an overdose - but they are happy to demand that someone else does this for them to uphold their ‘rights’.

At the last count a few minths ago there were over seven thousand heathy babies aborted in Ireland since abortion was legalised.

How many are going to be pressurised into lethal choices by financial pressures or their families. And of course no doubt the medical
companies and life insurance and mortgage companies willl love it - no payouts for opt in medical services or opt in deaths. Only
like most insurance, death benefit, life assurance and medical claim refusals they will NEVeR be in the news - their industry is too strong.

Our nursing homes at 5k a month fees will be littered with euthanised corpses. The funeral
directors at 12k a death will be rubbing their hands in glee as they will now be able to plan for their deaths and promote packages and advance payment plans & get their money before the corpse is even created.

And of course no pressure on the families whatsoever. Shall we encourage granny to
kill hersefl? She’s had a good life - why keep
her on? I’m tired of paying for her bills/ care/ nursing home - and her house is worth an awful
pot before (un) fair deal takes it all and gives it to the government. No pressure at all.

As someone has rightly prompted. it will be a suicide circus.

Mrs OBumble

Gruffalux wrote: »

.... he had to put in a good few years of terrible, inhuman suffering. On his behalf I support it.

Suicide by doctor will surely not be available for someone who is years away from death.

And let's be clear: it's already quite legal to kill yourself. Anyone who really wants to kill themselves can do so now.

biko

In assisted suicide another person, sometimes a doctor, is the one to end your life. A killer but not a killer.
Good thing Irish doctors don't swear any Hippocratic oath eh?

Why do people need assistance committing suicide?
What is stopping them from doing it themselves? It's not illegal.

looksee

The problem with not having someone helping is that the totally, completely incapacitated, the very people who might need this option, would be unable to physically help themselves. And without having an outside medical involvement it leaves the situation open to people who might 'assist' where it is not wanted.

I would hope it would be available to me if the situation got that dire, certainly if I became completely overtaken by dementia I would hope someone would give me a push, and have said as much to my family.

biko

biko wrote: »

Suicide was de-criminalised in 1993 so there isn't any need for this bill as it's just a suicide bill wrapped up in a fancy name.

It is illegal for anyone to assist someone if they wish to commit suicide.
There absolutely is a need for this Bill

JustAThought

bubblypop wrote: »

It is illegal for anyone to assist someone if they wish to commit suicide.
There absolutely is a need for this Bill

Seven thousand healthy aborted babies so far this year probably would disagree with you. But everyone who was shouting loudest insisted it would only be for rare extraordinary medical cases in extreme need. Not unwanted disposable babies and their costs and inconveniences. & expenses. Just like what they’re saying now too it seems. Only now its the old, the infirm and the disabled and less mentally abled. And they want somebody else to do this dirty work too.

Mules

Mules wrote: »

A bit of tolerance for people who have different opinions than you makes life a lot easier. The people who voted no on abortion did it because they thought it was the compassionate decision, just like those who voted yes also thought it was the compassionate decision. Life isn't black and white. Decisions on morality isn't a case of right or wrong thinking people, everyone had had different experiences in life and they colour our opinions and choices.

The way they go about it then becomes a test of that sincerity

The vast majority of the public anti-abortion campaign (and the silence of the rest of that side in the face of it) failed that test badly

uptherebels

biko wrote: »

In assisted suicide another person, sometimes a doctor, is the one to end your life. A killer but not a killer.
Good thing Irish doctors don't swear any Hippocratic oath eh?

Why do people need assistance committing suicide?
What is stopping them from doing it themselves? It's not illegal.

It kinda difficult for someone who is bed ridden with a terminal illness to put themselves in a position to take their own life. But you know that already.

biko

biko wrote: »

In assisted suicide another person, sometimes a doctor, is the one to end your life. A killer but not a killer.
Good thing Irish doctors don't swear any Hippocratic oath eh?

Why do people need assistance committing suicide?
What is stopping them from doing it themselves? It's not illegal.

perhaps they are physically unable?

Mules

Deleted User wrote: »

The way they go about it then becomes a test of that sincerity

The vast majority of the public anti-abortion campaign (and the silence of the rest of that side in the face of it) failed that test badly

How do you mean?