Dying with Dignity Bill

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

Seven thousand healthy aborted babies so far this year probably would disagree with you.

well obviously not, considering they were aborted

uptherebels

JustAThought wrote: »

Seven thousand healthy aborted babies so far this year probably would disagree with you.

What does abortion have to do with assisted suicide?

biko

looksee wrote: »

The problem with not having someone helping is that the totally, completely incapacitated, the very people who might need this option, would be unable to physically help themselves.

How are we sure this person has agreed to die, if they cannot communicate this?
Is there a risk people are "assisted" that have become a burden on their family?

Mules

uptherebels wrote: »

What does abortion have to do with assisted suicide?

I think it's that pro life people in abortion would also be pro life in euthanasia. It's the ending of a life they object to.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

Seven thousand healthy aborted babies so far this year probably would disagree with you.

In what language, out of interest?

There's probably a thread still open on the abortion bill ye lost you could take this dishonest rhetoric too, by the way

biko

biko wrote: »

How are we sure this person has agreed to die, if they cannot communicate this?
Is there a risk people are "assisted" that have become a burden on their family?

unable to commit suicide without help doesn't mean someone cannot speak.
Mostly people become aware that they have a terminal illness before they are incapacitated, they make their arrangements then.
It's really very simple. No need for complications

Mules

Mules wrote: »

I think it's that pro life people in abortion would also be pro life in euthanasia. It's the ending of a life they object to.

Every life ends


If you believe in a conscious god, you've a lot to lay at that door first imo

PHG

JustAThought wrote: »

So a doctor who has sworn to do no harm and who has dedicated their training and career/ life to helping people is now - with the nurses and carers - going to be part of killing someone regardless of their faith or beliefs or personal values.

Nobody involves wants to hold a
pillow down over their lived ones faces and suffocate them for 3 minutes or collect pills and give them an overdose - but they are happy to demand that someone else does this for them to uphold their ‘rights’.

At the last count a few minths ago there were over seven thousand heathy babies aborted in Ireland since abortion was legalised.

How many are going to be pressurised into lethal choices by financial pressures or their families. And of course no doubt the medical
companies and life insurance and mortgage companies willl love it - no payouts for opt in medical services or opt in deaths. Only
like most insurance, death benefit, life assurance and medical claim refusals they will NEVeR be in the news - their industry is too strong.

Our nursing homes at 5k a month fees will be littered with euthanised corpses. The funeral
directors at 12k a death will be rubbing their hands in glee as they will now be able to plan for their deaths and promote packages and advance payment plans & get their money before the corpse is even created.

And of course no pressure on the families whatsoever. Shall we encourage granny to
kill hersefl? She’s had a good life - why keep
her on? I’m tired of paying for her bills/ care/ nursing home - and her house is worth an awful
pot before (un) fair deal takes it all and gives it to the government. No pressure at all.

As someone has rightly prompted. it will be a suicide circus.

One of the most ignorant comments have seen on here in a while.

Because Granny being a financial burden will put her in line for euthanasia. Really? You do realise there are medical people who don't believe in religion and nobody would be forced to give the injection or tablets. I'm not sure if this is a troll account.

And sure how awful it is to make our own decisions and take responsibility for our own lives than answering to a mystical ghost in the sky!

Switzerland are doing a good job, cannot see why would not be able to.

uptherebels

biko wrote: »

How are we sure this person has agreed to die, if they cannot communicate this?
Is there a risk people are "assisted" that have become a burden on their family?

Have you even bothered to read the bill?, the person has to have the capacity to understand the decision and the ability to communicate their decision

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

biko wrote: »

How are we sure this person has agreed to die, if they cannot communicate this?
Is there a risk people are "assisted" that have become a burden on their family?

Risk is a natural part of life.

There is a risk of dying, when you want to live, everytime you walk outside your front door in the morning.

You have only limited control over this risk, but you still have to crack on with things. You just try to control that which is realistically controllable. It's the same with assisted suicide. (imho)

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

unable to commit suicide without help doesn't mean someone cannot speak.
Mostly people become aware that they have a terminal illness before they are incapacitated, they make their arrangements then.
It's really very simple. No need for complications

Then they can arrange themselves to commit suicide before they become incapacitated.
Why would you ask another person to kill you if you are able to do to so yourself? That person have to live with the knowledge they have ended another person#s life.

Hellrazer

JustAThought wrote: »

Seven thousand healthy aborted babies so far this year probably would disagree with you.

Seven thousand bunches of cells-Not babies.
At least get the facts right.

biko

Hellrazer wrote: »

Seven thousand bunches of cells-Not babies.
At least get the facts right.

That is just a matter of definition.
Does life start at the splitting of the first cell? At the first heartbeat? At the first brainwave? Or when you exit the womb?
It's different definitions.

JustAThought

bubblypop wrote: »

unable to commit suicide without help doesn't mean someone cannot speak.
Mostly people become aware that they have a terminal illness before they are incapacitated, they make their arrangements then.
It's really very simple. No need for complications

If its so simple and easy why don’t you kill them yourself so - keep it in your family - like choosing to kill your unborn bany or now inconvenient disposable relative. Why insist on sanitiising it and forcing someone else to do it for you. If its that easy and convenient a process. Just because you have no moral conscience dosn’t mean the people who will be forced to kill your mother/brother/child/partner for you want to take a life or have that on their conscience or daily ‘to do’ list.

uptherebels

Mules wrote: »

I think it's that pro life people in abortion would also be pro life in euthanasia. It's the ending of a life they object to.

They can't object that much, because the post I quoted had zero factual information in it.
7000 , incorrect
Healthy babies, incorrect
This year ,incorrect
And that before we get to difference between an actual person and a foetus.

biko

Legalisation of assisted suicide in Oregon was a big ‘mistake’, warns US doctor

Professor William L. Toffler, one of the most senior doctors in Oregon, has declared that the law has been a disaster in his home state.

He said that “assisted suicide has been detrimental to patients, degraded the quality of medical care, and compromised the integrity of the medical profession”.

“I have seen first-hand how the law has changed the relationship between doctors and patients, some of whom now fear that they are being steered toward assisted suicide,” he continued.

“In one case a patient with bladder cancer contacted me. She was concerned that an oncologist treating her might be one of the ‘death doctors’, and she questioned his motives. This was particularly worrying to her after she obtained a second opinion from another oncologist who was more positive about her prognosis and treatment options. Whichever of the consultants was correct, such fears were never an issue before.”


http://www.dioceseofshrewsbury.org/news/latest-news/legalisation-of-assisted-suicide-in-oregon-was-a-big-mistake-warns-us-doctor

Hellrazer

JustAThought wrote: »

Don’t worry - you’ve moved on from fighting for the right to kill healthy babies - you want to
kill adults and grown children now - the sick, the disabled, the intellectually challenged, the unimportant - the inconvenient. Just like Hitler did.

Didn't take long for Godwins law to appear!!!

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

If its so simple and easy why don’t you kill them yourself so - keep it in your family - like choosing to kill your unborn bany or now inconvenient disposable relative. Why insist on sanitiising it and forcing someone else to do it for you. If its that easy and convenient a process. Just because you have no moral conscience dosn’t mean the people who will be forced to kill your mother/brother/child/partner for you want to take a life or have that on their conscience or daily ‘to do’ list.

perhaps you miss the point of the Bill??

It is illegal to assist anyone to kill themselves.
no-one will be forced to assist anyone else.

gmisk

biko wrote: »

Legalisation of assisted suicide in Oregon was a big ‘mistake’, warns US doctor

Professor William L. Toffler, one of the most senior doctors in Oregon, has declared that the law has been a disaster in his home state.

He said that “assisted suicide has been detrimental to patients, degraded the quality of medical care, and compromised the integrity of the medical profession”.

“I have seen first-hand how the law has changed the relationship between doctors and patients, some of whom now fear that they are being steered toward assisted suicide,” he continued.

“In one case a patient with bladder cancer contacted me. She was concerned that an oncologist treating her might be one of the ‘death doctors’, and she questioned his motives. This was particularly worrying to her after she obtained a second opinion from another oncologist who was more positive about her prognosis and treatment options. Whichever of the consultants was correct, such fears were never an issue before.”


http://www.dioceseofshrewsbury.org/news/latest-news/legalisation-of-assisted-suicide-in-oregon-was-a-big-mistake-warns-us-doctor

It's from a diocese website...not exactly unbiased.

A quick Google will show you that doctor is also a member of the catholic medical association....other topics he has strong opinions on include "abortion and breast cancer"...so I wouldn't give his opinions much weight.

biko

biko wrote: »

Legalisation of assisted suicide in Oregon was a big ‘mistake’, warns US doctor

Professor William L. Toffler, one of the most senior doctors in Oregon, has declared that the law has been a disaster in his home state.

He said that “assisted suicide has been detrimental to patients, degraded the quality of medical care, and compromised the integrity of the medical profession”.

“I have seen first-hand how the law has changed the relationship between doctors and patients, some of whom now fear that they are being steered toward assisted suicide,” he continued.

“In one case a patient with bladder cancer contacted me. She was concerned that an oncologist treating her might be one of the ‘death doctors’, and she questioned his motives. This was particularly worrying to her after she obtained a second opinion from another oncologist who was more positive about her prognosis and treatment options. Whichever of the consultants was correct, such fears were never an issue before.”


http://www.dioceseofshrewsbury.org/news/latest-news/legalisation-of-assisted-suicide-in-oregon-was-a-big-mistake-warns-us-doctor

so? doctors are people too, they are entitled to their opinion and will not be forced to become involved.

biko

Assisted suicides in the Netherlands include a 29-year-old who had nothing wrong with her physically

Not only was she young, she did not have a terminal disease such as cancer. She suffered from psychiatric illnesses, including severe anxiety, depression, eating disorders and psychosis.
She self-harmed and had attempted suicide numerous times.

Finally she got got someone else to do it for her.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/17/assisted-dying-euthanasia-netherlands

Mules

biko wrote: »

Legalisation of assisted suicide in Oregon was a big ‘mistake’, warns US doctor

Professor William L. Toffler, one of the most senior doctors in Oregon, has declared that the law has been a disaster in his home state.

He said that “assisted suicide has been detrimental to patients, degraded the quality of medical care, and compromised the integrity of the medical profession”.

“I have seen first-hand how the law has changed the relationship between doctors and patients, some of whom now fear that they are being steered toward assisted suicide,” he continued.

“In one case a patient with bladder cancer contacted me. She was concerned that an oncologist treating her might be one of the ‘death doctors’, and she questioned his motives. This was particularly worrying to her after she obtained a second opinion from another oncologist who was more positive about her prognosis and treatment options. Whichever of the consultants was correct, such fears were never an issue before.”


http://www.dioceseofshrewsbury.org/news/latest-news/legalisation-of-assisted-suicide-in-oregon-was-a-big-mistake-warns-us-doctor

Interesting. I do think it's important to look at how it's turned out in places and any unintentional problems that have turned up. It shouldn't be rushed without all views given full consideration at any rate.

uptherebels

JustAThought wrote: »

Don’t worry - you’ve moved on from fighting for the right to kill healthy babies - you want to
kill adults and grown children now - the sick, the disabled, the intellectually challenged, the unimportant - the inconvenient. Just like Hitler did.

Nice try, but I don't want to kill anyone. I believe people should have the option of assisted suicide available to them. If you are bitter about not being able to control others, that is on you.

biko

biko wrote: »

In assisted suicide another person, sometimes a doctor, is the one to end your life. A killer but not a killer.
Good thing Irish doctors don't swear any Hippocratic oath eh?

Why do people need assistance committing suicide?
What is stopping them from doing it themselves? It's not illegal.

Plenty of people who are seriously ill might not have physical ability to end life. Secondly doing it successfully from guaranteed. The fact you don't get that health can deteriorate to the point where you lack such freedom highlights your ignorance tbh.

John Hutton

A disappointing aspect of society today is that the points of an argument can never, seemingly, be engaged with and debated. Instead, it comes down to an attack on the person or organisation making the argument. Debates today seem to hinge entirely on this point. You opponent raises a good issue? No problem, simply ignore it and attack them. Accuse them of bias, as if that is some sort of "gotcha" that someone on one side of a debate would be biased towards the position they are advocating. The implication is of course that you are not biased, because in your hubris your own position must certainly be the default objectively correct "unbiased" position.

This is no way to govern or run a society - serious issues dont get teased out because if you come down on the eventual "wrong" side you are cancelled or otherwise destroyed.

biko

Next steps?

Pia Dijkstra, an MP and member of the centrist-liberal D66 party, has proposed a law allowing anyone over 75, without a diagnosis of physical or mental illness, to request euthanasia.

"I don't want to be a burden for my family, may as well get assisted suicided".

biko

biko wrote: »

Assisted suicides in the Netherlands include a 29-year-old who had nothing wrong with her physically

Not only was she young, she did not have a terminal disease such as cancer. She suffered from psychiatric illnesses, including severe anxiety, depression, eating disorders and psychosis.
She self-harmed and had attempted suicide numerous times.

Finally she got got someone else to do it for her.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/17/assisted-dying-euthanasia-netherlands

Are you posting that like it's a bad thing, or a good thing?

Sounds like a perfect candidate to me. I'm 32 and I'm physically fine, but deal with chronic depression. I'd think I'd like to avail of such a service as assisted suicide/"dying with dignity". Should I be prevented from such because "shure his legs work, doctor"?

John Hutton

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you posting that like it's a bad thing, or a good thing?

Sounds like a perfect candidate to me. I'm 32 and I'm physically fine, but deal with chronic depression. I'd think I'd like to avail of such a service as assisted suicide/"dying with dignity". Should I be prevented from such because "shure his legs work, doctor"?

No, you should not be encouraged or assisted in committing suicide. You should receive all possible medical, psychiatric and other supports.

biko

biko wrote: »

Legalisation of assisted suicide in Oregon was a big ‘mistake’, warns US doctor

Professor William L. Toffler, one of the most senior doctors in Oregon, has declared that the law has been a disaster in his home state.

He said that “assisted suicide has been detrimental to patients, degraded the quality of medical care, and compromised the integrity of the medical profession”.

“I have seen first-hand how the law has changed the relationship between doctors and patients, some of whom now fear that they are being steered toward assisted suicide,” he continued.

“In one case a patient with bladder cancer contacted me. She was concerned that an oncologist treating her might be one of the ‘death doctors’, and she questioned his motives. This was particularly worrying to her after she obtained a second opinion from another oncologist who was more positive about her prognosis and treatment options. Whichever of the consultants was correct, such fears were never an issue before.”


http://www.dioceseofshrewsbury.org/news/latest-news/legalisation-of-assisted-suicide-in-oregon-was-a-big-mistake-warns-us-doctor

You've just linked to a diocese report and then a quick Google of the doctor leads to the Catholic Medical Association..... I'm sure he's unbiased though. Honestly the fact you expect a person to arrange a suicide that may or may not work is pretty barbaric tbh. You seem to lack any compassion and want to rave about slippery slopes instead.

http://www.cathmed.org/programs-resources/programs/speakers-bureau/william-toffler/

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

No, you should not be encouraged or assisted in committing suicide. You should receive all possible medical, psychiatric and other supports.

I didn't say anything about encouragement, I said if I choose it, why should I not be allowed it?


Surely a better option than being found hanging from a tree or dragged from the river..?