FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Fann Linn

10 years to the day the IMF landed here courtesy of FF and their FG cheerleaders.

Solutionking

Fann Linn wrote: »

10 years to the day the IMF landed here courtesy of FF and their FG cheerleaders.

I don't remember, but prior to the crash did you see ANY party complaining about the Celtic tiger. Of course open to correction if you can show me any of the parties in government predicted what would happen?

Fann Linn

Solutionking wrote: »

I don't remember, but prior to the crash did you see ANY party complaining about the Celtic tiger. Of course open to correction if you can show me any of the parties in government predicted what would happen?

Typical whataboutery response.

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

I don't remember, but prior to the crash did you see ANY party complaining about the Celtic tiger. Of course open to correction if you can show me any of the parties in government predicted what would happen?

The Social Democrats did not exist.
People Before Profit had no TDs.
So it would have been hard for them to complain.

But let's look at the parties:

What has happened since is a seismic shift away from the parties who didn't complain - 2007: FF (77), FG (51), LP (20), GP (6), SF (4), PD (2)

became (on the promise of 'new politics)- 2011: FG (76), LP (37), FF (20), SF (14), SP (2), PBP (2).

Fast forward to 2020 FF (38), SF (37), FG (35), GP (12), LP (6), SD (4), S-PBP (5), AONTU (1)

We are seeing the rise of an actual Opposition, something that was missing in the previous Rota system of govt.

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding how important it is to have a strong opposition in a democracy. Dismissing them as 'asking stupid questions' when what they are actually doing is calling the govt to account.

The problem pre-2008 was we didn't have enough people with genuinely different political ideologies in the Dáil to complain - now we do and people are complaining they are complaining :rolleyes:

Fann Linn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Social Democrats did not exist.
People Before Profit had no TDs.
So it would have been hard for them to complain.

But let's look at the parties:

What has happened since is a seismic shift away from the parties who didn't complain - 2007: FF (77), FG (51), LP (20), GP (6), SF (4), PD (2)

became (on the promise of 'new politics)- 2011: FG (76), LP (37), FF (20), SF (14), SP (2), PBP (2).

Fast forward to 2020 FF (38), SF (37), FG (35), GP (12), LP (6), SD (4), S-PBP (5), AONTU (1)

We are seeing the rise of an actual Opposition, something that was missing in the previous Rota system of govt.

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding how important it is to have a strong opposition in a democracy. Dismissing them as 'asking stupid questions' when what they are actually doing is calling the govt to account.

The problem pre-2008 was we didn't have enough people with genuinely different political ideologies in the Dáil to complain - now we do and people are complaining they are complaining :rolleyes:

Not 100% sure but was it not McWilliams who urged caution and Bertie Ahearn put him in his box by wishing all the naysayers would go off and commit suicide. Not exactly the atmosphere for critics to put their heads above the parapet.

smurgen

Fann Linn wrote: »

Not 100% sure but was it not McWilliams who urged caution and Bertie Ahearn put him in his box by wishing all the naysayers would go off and commit suicide. Not exactly the atmosphere for critics to put their heads above the parapet.

Any naysayers weren't given a platform to talk about prudence.when it all fell apart we were told by the same papers and political hacks that we all partied. Saying that no one speaks up while subverting concerns or attacking those highlighting concerns. Then coming out with meaningless comments like sure everyone knew. It's seen all the time in Ireland. Same with the Magdalene laundries etc. But the reality is that the real impact of these scandals are kept off the main stream media. Take the direct provision at the moment. Are RTE filming conditions in some of the worst centers and broadcasting to people on the six o clock news? Then investigating how the licences and public contracts for such centers are won?

Bannasidhe

Fann Linn wrote: »

Not 100% sure but was it not McWilliams who urged caution and Bertie Ahearn put him in his box by wishing all the naysayers would go off and commit suicide. Not exactly the atmosphere for critics to put their heads above the parapet.

Yup. 2007.
But the question SK asked related to parties complaining in the Dáil.
The fact that there was no real opposition, i.e. parties complaining, just shows how dysfunctional our parliamentary system was, and the irony of people complaining that Opposition parties are now genuinely opposing the govt as 'time wasting'.


There's a good time line here of 'people complaining' outside of the political party system of the day https://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/online-television-programmes-and-videos-about-the-crisis-in-ireland/.
The difference between now and then is those concerns would be raised in the Dáil now.

Interesting to note that RTÉ were asking questions back then...

Cluedo Monopoly

Fann Linn wrote: »

Not 100% sure but was it not McWilliams who urged caution and Bertie Ahearn put him in his box by wishing all the naysayers would go off and commit suicide. Not exactly the atmosphere for critics to put their heads above the parapet.

That was Morgan Kelly from UCD. He kept warning them.

I remember FF did a massive giveaway budget in the early 2000s. Loadsa money for everyone. And Richard Bruton stood up in the Dail and said they had not gone far enough, that they had more money to spend etc. Madness.

Cluedo Monopoly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Social Democrats did not exist.
People Before Profit had no TDs.
So it would have been hard for them to complain.

But let's look at the parties:

What has happened since is a seismic shift away from the parties who didn't complain - 2007: FF (77), FG (51), LP (20), GP (6), SF (4), PD (2)

became (on the promise of 'new politics)- 2011: FG (76), LP (37), FF (20), SF (14), SP (2), PBP (2).

Fast forward to 2020 FF (38), SF (37), FG (35), GP (12), LP (6), SD (4), S-PBP (5), AONTU (1)

We are seeing the rise of an actual Opposition, something that was missing in the previous Rota system of govt.

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding how important it is to have a strong opposition in a democracy. Dismissing them as 'asking stupid questions' when what they are actually doing is calling the govt to account.

The problem pre-2008 was we didn't have enough people with genuinely different political ideologies in the Dáil to complain - now we do and people are complaining they are complaining :rolleyes:

Excellent post and great to see the progress from the Elite Rota system.

James Brown

Labour called out the selling off of public land to developers. They said it would cause housing issues down the road.
Of course then they aided and abetted Fine Gael cronyism.

James Brown

The new government press secretary is a former editor of the Irish Mirror and Irish Sun. Sounds like a good fit.

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Social Democrats did not exist.
People Before Profit had no TDs.
So it would have been hard for them to complain.

But let's look at the parties:

What has happened since is a seismic shift away from the parties who didn't complain - 2007: FF (77), FG (51), LP (20), GP (6), SF (4), PD (2)

became (on the promise of 'new politics)- 2011: FG (76), LP (37), FF (20), SF (14), SP (2), PBP (2).

Fast forward to 2020 FF (38), SF (37), FG (35), GP (12), LP (6), SD (4), S-PBP (5), AONTU (1)

We are seeing the rise of an actual Opposition, something that was missing in the previous Rota system of govt.

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding how important it is to have a strong opposition in a democracy. Dismissing them as 'asking stupid questions' when what they are actually doing is calling the govt to account.

The problem pre-2008 was we didn't have enough people with genuinely different political ideologies in the Dáil to complain - now we do and people are complaining they are complaining :rolleyes:

So the answer is no?

Fann Linn

FG lose support to SF in tonight's poll. #Leotheleak will cost them yet again. And as for FF, they're with the also rans.

FrancieBrady

Fann Linn wrote: »

FG lose support to SF in tonight's poll. #Leotheleak will cost them yet again. And as for FF, they're with the also rans.

Get ready for the 'polls mean nothing' posts.

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Get ready for the 'polls mean nothing' posts.

Interesting from Dublin perspective;

FG 36
SF 30
GP 8
FF 7.

Won't be long before someone plunges the knife into MM. He's really dragging them down and if they don't stop the rot they're finished.

Nobotty

Fann Linn wrote: »

Interesting from Dublin perspective;

FG 36
SF 30
GP 8
FF 7.

Won't be long before someone plunges the knife into MM. He's really dragging them down and if they don't stop the rot they're finished.

FF tend to underperform in polls
This is a Red C poll but its the first digital only one I've seen, that may have impacted its numbers because you wouldn't think older people especially pensioners would work well with IT versus people calling to their houses or phoning them
The new dynamic to watch for in the next election is will FG and FF supporters transfer to each other
That might save a lot of seats
So the clever thing for SF strategists to do,and they'd want to be working on it now,is to Stoke the old civil war mentality rivalry between the two monolith's

Thats not a bad FG performance by the way given the relentless opposition dogging of them,its 13 points up on the GE performance versus 7 for SF and given SF are not in government
A lot of FG's 2020 shine was a false shine too as it was a pandemic managing boost
So I'd be disappointed at the less than stellar results from all the opposition pressure on them going on this poll

blanch152

Fann Linn wrote: »

10 years to the day the IMF landed here courtesy of FF and their FG cheerleaders.

You obviously haven’t read the budget speeches of Richard Bruton and Joan Burton during that period. They warned of the dangers of FF spending.

In contrast the likes of Sinn Fein and whatever PBP were then wanted more and more spending.

blanch152

Fann Linn wrote: »

FG lose support to SF in tonight's poll. #Leotheleak will cost them yet again. And as for FF, they're with the also rans.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Get ready for the 'polls mean nothing' posts.

So let me get this clear, Sinn Feinhave spent the last month whinging and crying about Leo the Leak and Seamus Woulfe and a whole lot of other bullish!t, but Fine Gael are still ahead of them in the polls?

And this is somehow a success for Sinn Fein who were the largest party in the last election?

Can I have some of what you lads are smoking?

jmcc

blanch152 wrote: »

So let me get this clear, Sinn Feinhave spent the last month whinging and crying about Leo the Leak and Seamus Woulfe and a whole lot of other bullish!t, but Fine Gael are still ahead of them in the polls?

Only in RedC and that's not exactly unfavourable to FG.

This one is more realistic:

https://twitter.com/politiceir/status/1332854652812087296

FG: 28% (-5)
SF: 28% (-1)
FF: 17% (+3)
SD: 5%
LAB: 4% (-1)
GP: 4% (+1)
AON: 4% (+1)
S-PBP: 2% (-1)

Ireland Thinks / IDM

Regards...jmcc

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

You obviously haven’t read the budget speeches of Richard Bruton and Joan Burton during that period. They warned of the dangers of FF spending.

In contrast the likes of Sinn Fein and whatever PBP were then wanted more and more spending.

You obviously didn't read the responses before commenting, there was no PBP there. I gave the breakdown of the Dáil.
But sure, have a dig anyway. Who needs facts when claiming to be correcting others.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The problem pre-2008 was we didn't have enough people with genuinely different political ideologies in the Dáil to complain - now we do and people are complaining they are complaining :rolleyes:

Not at all. Remember the election of 2002? When FG under Michael Noonan warned against rampant out of control spending and throwing away the once in a lifetime boom?

No?

Anyway, Bertie promised everyone everything and the electorate responded in kind.
We simply do not do conservative spending, all parties want to spend more money, its just some parties want to spend and borrow more than others.

Bishop of hope

It's a good poll for SF and obviously FG have slipped so they'll be taking stock.
Given the nature of what has transpired over the last few weeks though, overall I'd say FG can't be too unhappy with their results.
Outside of those two it looks pretty glum really, especially for FF.

Bishop of hope

jmcc wrote: »

Only in RedC and that's not exactly unfavourable to FG.

This one is more realistic:

https://twitter.com/politiceir/status/1332854652812087296

FG: 28% (-5)
SF: 28% (-1)
FF: 17% (+3)
SD: 5%
LAB: 4% (-1)
GP: 4% (+1)
AON: 4% (+1)
S-PBP: 2% (-1)

Ireland Thinks / IDM

Regards...jmcc

It's interesting surely.
But given the, demographic that would be on twitter it probably isn't indicative of the older vote, which tends to be higher than the younger vote on polling date.
That's not dismissing it, just an a observation.

As an afterthought, given the nature of twitter traffic I'm surprised SF have dropped and their vote isn't actually higher.
Perhaps more thought needs to be put on the fact that Govt party dissatisfaction isn't transferring to SF satisfaction either.

Solutionking

So let me get this straight, we have posts on here about Leo been the most hated leader for 100 years yet, the whole country hates him blah blah blah
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1129/1181167-irish-politics-poll/
He is currently ahead of every other political party?
Plus FF are slowly creeping back up
That really must be annoying for some people around here.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You obviously didn't read the responses before commenting, there was no PBP there.

With all due respect, many of the same people are still there just under new guises and names. Thus the mark of the left, always splitting and fighting among themselves.



Also saw this, which I thought was funny, from the 2002, workers solidarity party pamplet.

But sure, have a dig anyway. Who needs facts when claiming to be correcting others.

Sorry, but what 'fact' is being dismissed here? You posted the election results of the past few elections and thus confidently stated that there was no 'real' opposition until now... when in fact there has ALWAYS been a political party opposing the government. That IS a fact!.

Solutionking

blanch152 wrote: »

So let me get this clear, Sinn Feinhave spent the last month whinging and crying about Leo the Leak and Seamus Woulfe and a whole lot of other bullish!t, but Fine Gael are still ahead of them in the polls?

And this is somehow a success for Sinn Fein who were the largest party in the last election?

Can I have some of what you lads are smoking?

You couldn't make it up could you. One of them posting that Leo is the most hated leader for 100 years. Yet he is ahead what does that make the rest of the them. The most hated leaders for 300 years?
Nice to see MM getting some gains as well which proves the government are been rewarded for the good work.

markodaly

Solutionking wrote: »

You couldn't make it up could you. One of them posting that Leo is the most hated leader for 100 years. Yet he is ahead what does that make the rest of the them. The most hated leaders for 300 years?
Nice to see MM getting some gains as well which proves the government are been rewarded for the good work.

Predictions of FG and Leo's demise are like buses at this stage in this forum.
We had the usual regulars proclaim that he would be both a) sacked and b) in jail...
Neither of which will happen. Social media tends to hype and amplify everything.
Every day is a new 'scandal' warranting some criminal prosecution.

It's all just anger and noise.

Solutionking

markodaly wrote: »

Predictions of FG and Leo's demise are like buses at this stage in this forum.
We had the usual regulars proclaim that he would be both a) sacked and b) in jail...
Neither of which will happen. Social media tends to hype and amplify everything.
Every day is a new 'scandal' warranting some criminal prosecution.

It's all just anger and noise.

Noise is right. A lot of huff and puff on here with nothing behind it.

FrancieBrady

4 point fall for FG back to 33% and SF rising to it's highest ever level, is a 'bad result for SF'? :D:D

It's almost exactly how I figured it. I would have thought FF might have taken a bit more, but maybe I misjudged just how bad things are for them.

Bad results for FG and Labour. (surprising too)

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

4 point fall for FG back to 33% and SF rising to it's highest ever level, is a 'bad result for SF'? :D:D

It's almost exactly how I figured it. I would have thought FF might have taken a bit more, but maybe I misjudged just how bad things are for them.

Bad results for FG and Labour. (surprising too)

its dangerous to suggest that's a bad poll for FG when a lot of their high riding was pandemic management related
They are still 13 points ahead of GE 20
Thats nearly double SF's rise despite the opposition's relentless pushing and when SF are the main opposition party
There is zero room for complacency

The Irish times politics podcast is interesting this week for anyone with a sub
Basically it says,if SF do a deal to be in government next time,their number one,over powering all else objective driven by its traditional core supporters will be a border poll
In doing one,the point was being made,the rest of their programme will probably move centre as they need unionists to vote for a UI,dumping a lot of the more left wing agenda to coax them
Moving to the centre could make them the biggest party on the island eventually