FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Bannasidhe

Geuze wrote: »

TDs do earn double the average earnings, that is the case now.

I think that's fair enough, it is a 24x7 job.

Ministers get, I think, 3x average earnings?

The Taoiseach gets about 4x.

Avg industrial wage 2018 = €38,871 x2 = 77,742
Avg industrial wage 2019 shot up to €48,946 = 97,892 (an increase which needs looking at imo).
Basic TD salary 2019 €96,189 plus expenses
Taoiseach salary 2019 €96,189 plus salaried allowance of €111,401* plus expenses.
The issue is the 'plus expenses' which we know has been open to widescale abuse and the way the avg industrial wage is calculated - ironically high earners like top civil servants, ministers etc are skewing the figure due to being top earners.

So you are absolutely right - I made a mistake and hands up - I should have said Median Annual Wage rather than average which is heavily influenced by a relatively small number of high earners and not a true reflection of what 64% of the Irish work force earns

Plus overly generous expenses

Thank you for reminding me how the ave wage figures are not a true reflection of what the avg worker actually earns.

So I am going to now state that TDs should earn twice the minimum wage based on a 40 hour working week - €20.20 ph = 808 pw =42,016 pa... too little??

Ok - how about we make it twice the living wage based on a 40 hour week?
TD 2x 12.30 = €24.6 ph = 984 pw = 51,168 pa.
Minister 2.5 x12.30 = 30.75 ph = 1,230 pw = 63,960 pa
Taoiseach 3 x 12.30 = 36.9 ph = 1,476 pw = 76,752 pa

Seems fair enough to me.

As for this whole 'working 24/7' - Dara Murphy was my TD so I'm absolutely not buying this working 24/7 crap.

Bannasidhe

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Looks like Holly Cairns is the latest target for twitter abuse, purely because she is dating a FF TD.

Noticed she was trending and clicked in to see why. Wish I didn't now.

That all started to kick off when Cairns began to take on the Greyhound industry.
They can't dispute the figures as many of them are from reports they themselves commissioned (as Bord na gCon) so the attacks are becoming increasingly personal.
The whole 'she doesn't really believe what she is saying because she is having sex with a TD who voted to continue supporting the greyhound industry' trope was fast out of the trap (pardon the pun).
Yeah, 'silly little girls' can't hold an independent and differing opinion to their man, this is known. :rolleyes:

Cairns dating a FF TD did cost her votes, she knows this. There were full and frank discussions across West Cork on this very topic which although I'm not in that Constituency or a member of the Soc Dems I kinda got dragged into as I have a ton of politically very active, and vocal, friends in West Cork.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That all started to kick off when Cairns began to take on the Greyhound industry.
They can't dispute the figures as many of them are from reports they themselves commissioned (as Bord na gCon) so the attacks are becoming increasingly personal.
The whole 'she doesn't really believe what she is saying because she is having sex with a TD who voted to continue supporting the greyhound industry' trope was fast out of the trap (pardon the pun).
Yeah, 'silly little girls' can't hold an independent and differing opinion to their man, this is known. :rolleyes:

Cairns dating a FF TD did cost her votes, she knows this. There were full and frank discussions across West Cork on this very topic which although I'm not in that Constituency or a member of the Soc Dems I kinda got dragged into as I have a ton of politically very active, and vocal, friends in West Cork.

From what I'm reading on twitter the latest 'she's shagging an FFer' BS came from an SF aligned source (tweet has apparently since been deleted) - glad I don't vote for them

Actually, SF support for the Greyhound Industry and Coursing is a huge part of why I will not vote for them - not the only reason, but a big one.

McMurphy

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Looks like Holly Cairns is the latest target for twitter abuse, purely because she is dating a FF TD.

Noticed she was trending and clicked in to see why. Wish I didn't now.

This tweet sums the nonsense up completely.

https://twitter.com/James_MacX/status/1336804859308367874?s=19


Why does it matter a dam who she's dating?

Floppybits

I believe they have broken up a while ago.

Still though both may have had the same political views but decided they would pursue them differently, one joined the soc dems and the other FF. Maybe one was looking for a short cut to government and the other was knew they would get more speaking time as a member of a smaller party who knows.

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Avg industrial wage 2018 = €38,871 x2 = 77,742
Avg industrial wage 2019 shot up to €48,946 = 97,892 (an increase which needs looking at imo).
Basic TD salary 2019 €96,189 plus expenses
Taoiseach salary 2019 €96,189 plus salaried allowance of €111,401* plus expenses.
The issue is the 'plus expenses' which we know has been open to widescale abuse and the way the avg industrial wage is calculated - ironically high earners like top civil servants, ministers etc are skewing the figure due to being top earners.

Average Industrial Wages = NOT PUBLISHED ANYMORE, since 2015

Average Earnings for full-time workers 2019
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

2014 = 44,829
2015 = 45,061
2016 = 45,640
2017 = 46,399
2018 = 47,596
2019 = 48,946

Yes, this is the mean earnings, and yes it is affected by outliers.

Yes, the expenses should be looked at.

But I don't think 96k is too high.

Bear in mind that a 26 year old accountant in Dublin can make 48k.

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

Average Industrial Wages = NOT PUBLISHED ANYMORE, since 2015

Average Earnings for full-time workers 2019
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

2014 = 44,829
2015 = 45,061
2016 = 45,640
2017 = 46,399
2018 = 47,596
2019 = 48,946

Yes, this is the mean earnings, and yes it is affected by outliers.

Yes, the expenses should be looked at.

But I don't think 96k is too high.

Bear in mind that a 26 year old accountant in Dublin can make 48k.

Average earnings are skewed downwards by large numbers of employees working part-time hours, in most cases by choice.

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/part-time-employment#:~:text=Part%20Time%20Employment%20in%20Ireland%20averaged%20401.36%20Thousand%20from%201998,the%20first%20quarter%20of%201998.


We have 490,000 in part-time employment out of a total of 2.2 million in employment. That would have a much larger effect than high-earning outliers.

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So I am going to now state that TDs should earn twice the minimum wage based on a 40 hour working week - €20.20 ph = 808 pw =42,016 pa... too little??

Ok - how about we make it twice the living wage based on a 40 hour week?
TD 2x 12.30 = €24.6 ph = 984 pw = 51,168 pa.
Minister 2.5 x12.30 = 30.75 ph = 1,230 pw = 63,960 pa
Taoiseach 3 x 12.30 = 36.9 ph = 1,476 pw = 76,752 pa

Senior accountants can be billed out at 480 per hour.

I recently paid 150 + VAT for 30 mins with a solicitor.

A medical consultant can earn maybe 450 per hour for the hours spent doing consultations.

In this context, I think 20 per hour for a TD is too low.

The mean hourly earnings are 25.61 per hour for FT staff.

TDs should not earn below the mean earnings.

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ok - how about we make it twice the living wage based on a 40 hour week?
TD 2x 12.30 = €24.6 ph = 984 pw = 51,168 pa.
Minister 2.5 x12.30 = 30.75 ph = 1,230 pw = 63,960 pa
Taoiseach 3 x 12.30 = 36.9 ph = 1,476 pw = 76,752 pa

Seems fair enough to me.

Teacher at top of scale = 70k

Typical lecturer, at top of scale = 84k

Average in Facebook Ireland = 100k

So a Minister on 64k is not realistic.

Floppybits

Charlie Flanagan coming out to say he didn't know what he was voting for last week on the student nurses pay and only became aware of how serious it was through local media.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-tds-and-senators-criticise-handling-of-student-nurses-pay-saying-it-portrayed-party-as-callous-39846440.html

Bannasidhe

Geuze wrote: »

Teacher at top of scale = 70k

Typical lecturer, at top of scale = 84k

Average in Facebook Ireland = 100k

So a Minister on 64k is not realistic.

Absolutely no reason why it is not realistic given they also get a salaried allowance that is currently more than their basic wage.
Make the salaried allowance the same as the basic and they would be on €127.920 pa - what exactly is 'unrealistic' about that?

'Typical' lecturer is not on top of scale btw, it takes many many years to get to 'top of scale' not to mention the number of 'lecturers' who don't even have secure employment anymore.

Do you really think comparing the salaries paid by Facebook - a multinational company worth $720 billion - with the salaries paid out to the govt of a country with a population of less than 5m people - of which 2.3 million are working people is comparing like for like?

landofthetree

Around 240 new jobs are to be created in Meath by the pharmaceutical company MSD.

The firm is to construct a new manufacturing facility beside its recently acquired biologics plant in Dunboyne.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/1210/1183591-jobs-msd-meath/

Doing great on job creation.

James Brown

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Looks like Holly Cairns is the latest target for twitter abuse, purely because she is dating a FF TD.

Noticed she was trending and clicked in to see why. Wish I didn't now.

I think she's very good and I hope she progresses.

James Brown

Floppybits wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan coming out to say he didn't know what he was voting for last week on the student nurses pay and only became aware of how serious it was through local media.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-tds-and-senators-criticise-handling-of-student-nurses-pay-saying-it-portrayed-party-as-callous-39846440.html

What a chancer. I see Donnelly is making moves on upping Student nurses grants etc. sometime next year. Bowsies.

Bannasidhe

McMurphy wrote: »

This tweet sums the nonsense up completely.

https://twitter.com/James_MacX/status/1336804859308367874?s=19


Why does it matter a dam who she's dating?

Remember when Fianna Fail's former press officer married a FG TD?

And everyone went ... um... congratulations...

James Brown

Garret Fitzgerald's wife was a FF'er as I recall.

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Absolutely no reason why it is not realistic given they also get a salaried allowance that is currently more than their basic wage.
Make the salaried allowance the same as the basic and they would be on €127.920 pa - what exactly is 'unrealistic' about that?

You are suggesting TD salary = 51,168

You are suggesting minister gets = 64k

So you are suggesting a Ministerial allowance of 13k.

I am suggesting that 51,168 is too low for a TD, it is barely above average earnings.


An example: 27% of the students on an MSc in Business Analytics get 50-70k after graduation. Surely a TD should earn more than a graduate?

Solicitors can be on 70k by age 30.

An ALDI area manager, which can be a graduate, gets 61k - 103k

https://www.aldirecruitment.ie/area-manager-programme


Ireland is a high-cost, high-price society.

I suggest 96k for a TD is ok.

I suggest cutting the travel expenses.

I suggest 120-150k for Ministers.

Bannasidhe

Geuze wrote: »

You are suggesting TD salary = 51,168

You are suggesting minister gets = 64k

So you are suggesting a Ministerial allowance of 13k.

I am suggesting that 51,168 is too low for a TD, it is barely above average earnings.


An example: 27% of the students on an MSc in Business Analytics get 50-70k after graduation. Surely a TD should earn more than a graduate?

Solicitors can be on 70k by age 30.

An ALDI area manager, which can be a graduate, gets 61k - 103k

https://www.aldirecruitment.ie/area-manager-programme


Ireland is a high-cost, high-price society.

I suggest 96k for a TD is ok.

I suggest cutting the travel expenses.

I suggest 120-150k for Ministers.

I suggest if TD's wish to earn those salaries they go into the private sector, but we know they are all doing the job not for the money but because they want to serve the people.
Serve the people by taking snouts out of the trough and living on the kind of salaries the people who pay your wages do - then they might understand how a 300k house or €2k rents is not 'affordable' for the average worker.

51k a year for a backbencher who votes the way the party leadership tells them is, in fact, overpaying. Ditto for an Opposition TD.

And as for ministers I said "Absolutely no reason why it is not realistic given they also get a salaried allowance that is currently more than their basic wage [mea culpa - I was wrong on that, the salaried allowance for a minister is €79,510, only in the case of the Taoiseach is it more than the basic 96,189 - it's 111,401].
Make the salaried allowance the same as the basic and they would be on €127.920 pa" so why are you arguing with me on that?
Currently a minister gets €175,699 (basic plus salaried allowance) plus other expenses so you agree with me they are over paid

Yes, Ireland is a high cost society - but our minimum wage - as decided by people you believe need €96k - is €2.20 below the living wage.

And that is what is obscene, that just under €100k a year basic paid out of the public purse is justified by saying we are a high cost society but paying people a living wage isn't.

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

I think she's very good and I hope she progresses.

Pity she didn’t know the difference between a greyhound and a lurcher when posing outside the Dail before her defund greyhound racing debate.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

Pity she didn’t know the difference between a greyhound and a lurcher when posing outside the Dail before her defund greyhound racing debate.

Would it have effected her policy wishes?

I think all animal racing for sport is pretty safe. Not sure how much they should be getting off the tax payer.

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

Would it have effected her policy wishes?

I think all animal racing for sport is pretty safe. Not sure how much they should be getting off the tax payer.

Attention to detail. Using a mixed breed claiming it was a thoroughbred was a schoolchild error.

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Serve the people by taking snouts out of the trough and living on the kind of salaries the people who pay your wages do - then they might understand how a 300k house or €2k rents is not 'affordable' for the average worker.

51k a year for a backbencher who votes the way the party leadership tells them is, in fact, overpaying. Ditto for an Opposition TD.

And as for ministers I said "Absolutely no reason why it is not realistic given they also get a salaried allowance that is currently more than their basic wage [mea culpa - I was wrong on that, the salaried allowance for a minister is €79,510, only in the case of the Taoiseach is it more than the basic 96,189 - it's 111,401].
Make the salaried allowance the same as the basic and they would be on €127.920 pa" so why are you arguing with me on that?
Currently a minister gets €175,699 (basic plus salaried allowance) plus other expenses so you agree with me they are over paid

I 100% agree that rents are too high, and urban house prices.

I still think 96k for a TD is ok.

I didn't realise Ministers are on 176k, I thought it is a bit less than that.

So yes, I agree, 176k for the 15 Ministers is a bit high, I suggest 120k-150k.

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, Ireland is a high cost society - but our minimum wage - as decided by people you believe need €96k - is €2.20 below the living wage.

And that is what is obscene, that just under €100k a year basic paid out of the public purse is justified by saying we are a high cost society but paying people a living wage isn't.

Approx 5-8% of workers are on the min wage, mostly young people.

Increasing the min wage to Living Wage would have little impact on poverty, as most min wage workers live in non-poor households.

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Attention to detail. Using a mixed breed claiming it was a thoroughbred was a schoolchild error.

Attention to detail?

Cmon now, it was hardly comparable with 18 covids before this one, or Enda having full and detailed conversations with specific people in specific locations that never actually happened at all.

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

Attention to detail. Using a mixed breed claiming it was a thoroughbred was a schoolchild error.

Not knowing the difference between 6 people and 83 people was a schoolchild error that many in FFG made when they attended the elite Coronaparty in Clifden.

Falling off a swing while drunk and then suing the hotel is a schoolchild error?

Claiming 880 Euros worth of car damages after a 5mph 'collision' when photos subsequently showed zero damage - is that a schoolchild error?

Claiming 15,000 Euros for 18 months of whiplash injuries when a car rolled into his car at 5mph - is that a schoolchild error?

Double jobbing for 2 years in Brussels while claiming maximum Dail expenses in Dublin (4300 per month) was a schoolchild error?

Expensing 130 calls to a Kenyan mobile phone for a total cost of €3,295 - schoolchild error? Claiming they were work related - schoolchild error?

Fine Gael, the shame party, the dishonest party.

Floppybits

McMurphy wrote: »

Attention to detail?

Cmon now, it was hardly comparable with 18 covids before this one, or Enda having full and detailed conversations with specific people in specific locations that never actually happened at all.

Not too forget Charlie Flanagan not knowing what he was voting for on the pay of student nurses nor knowing how serious of an issue it was but yet Maryanne there is banging on about a lurcher versus a greyhound. I think we all know which is more serious

Floppybits

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Not knowing the difference between 6 people and 83 people was a schoolchild error that many in FFG made when they attended the elite Coronaparty in Clifden.

Falling off a swing while drunk and then suing the hotel is a schoolchild error?

Claiming 880 Euros worth of car damages after a 5mph 'collision' when photos subsequently showed zero damage - is that a schoolchild error?

Claiming 15,000 Euros for 18 months of whiplash injuries when a car rolled into his car at 5mph - is that a schoolchild error?

Double jobbing for 2 years in Brussels while claiming maximum Dail expenses in Dublin (4300 per month) was a schoolchild error?

Expensing 130 calls to a Kenyan mobile phone for a total cost of €3,295 - schoolchild error? Claiming they were work related - schoolchild error?

Fine Gael, the shame party, the dishonest party.

I think you mean Fine Gael the no shame party.

James Brown

Come to think of it our local FG TD claimed people were going around intimidating the elderly. She even claimed numerous pensioners had called her afraid...
Turned out it was a few pensioners going door to door to get signatures to save the bus route the FG TD backed getting rid of and she didn't like it.

Floppybits

Bowie wrote: »

Come to think of it our local FG TD claimed people were going around intimidating the elderly. She even claimed numerous pensioners had called her afraid...
Turned out it was a few pensioners going door to door to get signatures to save the bus route the FG TD backed getting rid of and she didn't like it.

That doesn't sound like a FG TD. :DI remember my ex local FG TD made some nasty comments on a radio station during an election but when they got a back lash from the public they were running to the gardai to report death threats. Funnily enough this was never heard of again. Thankfully people in my election seen sense in the last election and gave them the boot.

Floppybits

Varadkar being investigated for failing to protect a whistle-blower.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40187652.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true