FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Cluedo Monopoly

Nobotty wrote: »

Something similar went on across the water with a middle man sourcing ppe early in the pandemic
They made millions
Its incompetence
I don't know anything about dodgy ventilators but I do know that Ireland can't nationalise a private American company making them here
They have to source them on the open market
So really the fact 20% of them in the world might be made here is beside the point

Nice deflection but you will find Covidien ventilators in all our hospitals. Supply was not an issue. Can you explain this other chancer buying dodgy ones from China?

Nobotty

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Nice deflection but you will find Covidien ventilators in all our hospitals. Supply was not an issue. Can you explain this other chancer buying dodgy ones from China?

What am I deflecting? Please direct arrogance like that elsewhere ,where it might be needed, thank you
I can tell you demand exceeded supply by 100s of 1000s at the start of the pandemic and like ppe, there was a scramble to get them anywhere
Normal procurement checks and balances were paused
That was a ripe environment for chancers
If you think FF FG or whoever scammed the department of health and you've proof,I'll be right behind you supporting you every step of the way

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

That doesn't explain how a one man company specializing in events planning in the middle east operating out of a residential apartment won a state contract for specialist medical devices.

This is it.
Cronyism is rife. Are we to believe on the entire planet or even just in Ireland, he was the best man?

Cluedo Monopoly

Nobotty wrote: »

What am I deflecting? Please direct arrogance like that elsewhere ,where it might be needed, thank you
I can tell you demand exceeded supply by 100s of 1000s at the start of the pandemic and like ppe, there was a scramble to get them anywhere
Normal procurement checks and balances were paused
That was a ripe environment for chancers
If you think FF FG or whoever scammed the department of health and you've proof,I'll be right behind you supporting you every step of the way

Calm yourself. There was no shortage of ventilators in Ireland. There was a shortage of trained nurses and ICU beds. Globally there was a shortage but not in Ireland.

The dodgy ones that cost the HSE 14,000,000 Euros were never used.

Nobotty

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Calm yourself. There was no shortage of ventilators in Ireland. There was a shortage of trained nurses and ICU beds. Globally there was a shortage but not in Ireland.

The dodgy ones that cost the HSE 14,000,000 Euros were never used.

There was a perceived shortage at the start of the pandemic at which point there was a scramble to get them
Remember the time we all expected the SURGE that never came?
Rewriting history to ignore that is not helpful
I'm simply making the point,the context,not that cowboys didn't take advantage
I was very clear in 2 or 3 posts on that before you attacked me with the 'deflection' jibe

The surge never came btw because we are good at following guidelines but there was no way of knowing that then
America is heading for 4000 deaths a day and much increased ventilator usage because Trump has fostered so much guideline ignoring
So the risk was real

UDAWINNER

Nobotty wrote: »

Lest we forget
FG are still up almost twice that of SF since the Feb 20 general election
Thats despite foot in mouth after foot in mouth by the current administration and relentless pressure from the Opposition
No point sugar coating this

what poll gives them double the size of SF, an imaginary one I guess:D

Bubbaclaus

UDAWINNER wrote: »

what poll gives them double the size of SF, an imaginary one I guess:D

That isn't what that poster said though.

Nobotty

UDAWINNER wrote: »

what poll gives them double the size of SF, an imaginary one I guess:D

Ffs reread the post
Near double the rise,not near double the size,go to specsavers
If they were near double SF's support,they'd be at way over 50%

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you really think comparing the salaries paid by Facebook - a multinational company worth $720 billion - with the salaries paid out to the govt of a country with a population of less than 5m people - of which 2.3 million are working people is comparing like for like?

Do you think its actually realistic to compare the salary paid to a 30-year-old developer in Facebook, to a Minister who forms part of the Executive branch of the Irish Government and state?

I know what job is more important for sure.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I suggest if TD's wish to earn those salaries they go into the private sector, but we know they are all doing the job not for the money but because they want to serve the people.
Serve the people by taking snouts out of the trough and living on the kind of salaries the people who pay your wages do - then they might understand how a 300k house or €2k rents is not 'affordable' for the average worker.

51k a year for a backbencher who votes the way the party leadership tells them is, in fact, overpaying. Ditto for an Opposition TD.

And as for ministers I said "Absolutely no reason why it is not realistic given they also get a salaried allowance that is currently more than their basic wage [mea culpa - I was wrong on that, the salaried allowance for a minister is €79,510, only in the case of the Taoiseach is it more than the basic 96,189 - it's 111,401].
Make the salaried allowance the same as the basic and they would be on €127.920 pa" so why are you arguing with me on that?
Currently a minister gets €175,699 (basic plus salaried allowance) plus other expenses so you agree with me they are over paid

Yes, Ireland is a high cost society - but our minimum wage - as decided by people you believe need €96k - is €2.20 below the living wage.

And that is what is obscene, that just under €100k a year basic paid out of the public purse is justified by saying we are a high cost society but paying people a living wage isn't.

First of all, you do know that salaries paid to TD's and Ministers are linked to other Civil Service grades. Do you propose just to reduce the salary of TD's or all of the Civil Service, who don't forget are the permanent government in the country?

We need to get more talented people into politics, not less and by trying undercut their pay, anyone decent will leave in droves.

As a historian, you should know why politicians get a salary in the first place because before that, only the landed and very wealthy could afford to run for parliament. Giving a politician a salary was seen as serving the public interest.

https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/mps-pay-the-never-ending-controversy/

The main reason advanced for introducing payment was, as Thomas Attwood said in 1839, to have ‘that class of men introduced into the House, men of that station and character which would enable them to be competent representatives of the wants and wishes of the Commons of England.’ This concern grew as the franchise expanded after 1867. In 1870 Peter Taylor, Liberal MP for Leicester, proposed restoring the payment of MPs. Alongside the importance of helping working men into Parliament, he emphasised the historical precedent of payment; its near universality in other countries’ legislatures; how it would put MPs on a par with other professions and with ministers who were already paid.

TLDR: Talk of TD salaries and the like is just pure populism.

ExMachina1000

markodaly wrote: »

First of all, you do know that salaries paid to TD's and Ministers are linked to other Civil Service grades. Do you propose just to reduce the salary of TD's or all of the Civil Service, who don't forget are the permanent government in the country?

We need to get more talented people into politics, not less and by trying undercut their pay, anyone decent will leave in droves.

As a historian, you should know why politicians get a salary in the first place because before that, only the landed and very wealthy could afford to run for parliament. Giving a politician a salary was seen as serving the public interest.

https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/mps-pay-the-never-ending-controversy/



TLDR: Talk of TD salaries and the like is just pure populism.

Top level politicians and civil servants are paid more in Ireland than they are in the United states or UK in many cases such as chief justice of the supreme court, Tds, party chiefs

markodaly

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Top level politicians and civil servants are paid more in Ireland than they are in the United states or UK in many cases such as chief justice of the supreme court, Tds, party chiefs

So, we should look at reducing PS/CS wages across the board.
I don't disagree with the point per say, that in Ireland we do overpay on Public Sector wages. But let's talk about that, rather than focus on the 160 odd TD's and not the tens of thousands of people in the civil service.

ExMachina1000

markodaly wrote: »

So, we should look at reducing PS/CS wages across the board.
I don't disagree with the point per say, that in Ireland we do overpay on Public Sector wages. But let's talk about that, rather than focus on the 160 odd TD's and not the tens of thousands of people in the civil service.

Top level individuals that I mentioned in the comparison are overpaid. The economy of Ireland isn't large enough to justify those ridiculous levels. The chief justice here gets 20k a year more than the chief justice of the supreme court of the United states! Leo is paid more than Boris Johnson etc

Their remuneration has spiralled out of control.

I have no knowledge of public sector pay levels

smurgen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Top level individuals that I mentioned in the comparison are overpaid. The economy of Ireland isn't large enough to justify those ridiculous levels. The chief justice here gets 20k a year more than the chief justice of the supreme court of the United states! Leo is paid more than Boris Johnson etc

Their remuneration has spiralled out of control.

I have no knowledge of public sector pay levels

The dribbling class they should be called in ireland.looking at the performance of late these lads should be paid max 25k a year and that's being generous.

markodaly

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Top level individuals that I mentioned in the comparison are overpaid. The economy of Ireland isn't large enough to justify those ridiculous levels. The chief justice here gets 20k a year more than the chief justice of the supreme court of the United states! Leo is paid more than Boris Johnson etc

Their remuneration has spiralled out of control.

I have no knowledge of public sector pay levels

Then perhaps you should brush up on your knowledge of public sector pay levels because this over-paying is ripe across the board.

E.g. for all the talk of pay for nurses, Irish nurses are actually quite well paid when compared to other EU and OECD countries.
Teachers the same.
Gardai the same.
Lecturers the same.
Civil servants the same.
And so on...

We overpay across the board, but then again maybe we overpay in other things as well. The dole is more than the UK and Germany for example. There is no such thing as Christmas bonuses either!
The minimum wage in Ireland is €10.10 an hour, one of the highest in the EU

Again, let's have the discussion but to focus the scope on the .1% of the public pay purse is not doing it justice.

Ireland is a high wage, high-cost country.

Nobotty

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/irelands-biggest-private-landlord-buys-146-properties-in-dublin-15-39860076.html

Nero is still fiddling,while Rome is burning, I see

FrancieBrady

The next episode of chaos hoving into to view. The Greens being trussed up like chickens on a spit.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1338426588073955329

blanch152

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Top level politicians and civil servants are paid more in Ireland than they are in the United states or UK in many cases such as chief justice of the supreme court, Tds, party chiefs

And look at what the public gets as a result in the US and the UK. You have made a very good case for higher rates of pay in Ireland.

For the last decade, the pay of politicians has lagged the private sector. As a result, we now have the lowest calibre of politicians for decades.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have long thought that all State salaries - including politicians-

If an organisation receives State funding towards wages etc the same rules should apply.

markodaly wrote: »

First of all, you do know that salaries paid to TD's and Ministers are linked to other Civil Service grades. Do you propose just to reduce the salary of TD's or all of the Civil Service, who don't forget are the permanent government in the country?

markodaly wrote: »

So, we should look at reducing PS/CS wages across the board.
I don't disagree with the point per say, that in Ireland we do overpay on Public Sector wages. But let's talk about that, rather than focus on the 160 odd TD's and not the tens of thousands of people in the civil service.

Bit of an own goal there Mark.

If only you had read what I actually said before being sooo eager to attack what ever point you imagined I had made rather than the one I actually made you would have seen I said "all State salaries - including politicians".
Another poster decided to defend the pay ministers get - only for it to emerge that ministers get paid far more than their defender realised and my suggested pay far far closer to what they believed acceptable.

Now we have you spouting about me picking on politicians and being populist when- if you had just read my post - it was clear my mention of politicians were an add on as part of the whole State (linked) pay scale.

Look at that mark - you actually agree with me.

I await your apology but accept that it more likely be a butbutbut blah blah about how I am wrong and you are right even though you think " we should look at reducing PS/CS wages across the board" which was my point in the first place.

If it is the former - apology accepted.
If it is the latter don't expect me to respond to you.

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

As a result, we now have the lowest calibre of politicians for decades.

Lower then Haughey?
Burke?

We have always had some fine examples of numpties, gombeens, and grasping liars.
Here is some light reading for you https://westcorkpeople.ie/columnists/a-history-of-political-corruption-in-ireland/

As an aside interesting how often you are here defending "the lowest calibre of politicians for decades"

Cluedo Monopoly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As an aside interesting how often you are here defending "the lowest calibre of politicians for decades"

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Lower then Haughey?
Burke?

We have always had some fine examples of numpties, gombeens, and grasping liars.
Here is some light reading for you https://westcorkpeople.ie/columnists/a-history-of-political-corruption-in-ireland/

As an aside interesting how often you are here defending "the lowest calibre of politicians for decades"

Healy-Raes on the double, Violet Anne-Wynne, Reada Cronin, Veronica Murphy, Stanley, Cullinane etc. Some of them have been around a while longer -O'Cuiv, Lowry, O'Dea but we have the worst line-up ever. Gets worse when you consider the likes of Ming and Mick Wallace in the EP.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The next episode of chaos hoving into to view. The Greens being trussed up like chickens on a spit.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1338426588073955329

They'll just continue to damn themselves.

blanch152 wrote: »

Healy-Raes on the double, Violet Anne-Wynne, Reada Cronin, Veronica Murphy, Stanley, Cullinane etc. Some of them have been around a while longer -O'Cuiv, Lowry, O'Dea but we have the worst line-up ever. Gets worse when you consider the likes of Ming and Mick Wallace in the EP.

Bought dodgy respirators off a middle eastern gig promoter did they?

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

Healy-Raes on the double, Violet Anne-Wynne, Reada Cronin, Veronica Murphy, Stanley, Cullinane etc. Some of them have been around a while longer -O'Cuiv, Lowry, O'Dea but we have the worst line-up ever. Gets worse when you consider the likes of Ming and Mick Wallace in the EP.

Do you really want me to go through the lengthy list of dodgy TDs since 1922?
Really?

Shall I do MEP's too?

Just to counter your rather politically biased list.

Thing is Blanch - it doesn't matter if the entire Opposition are in your opinion of low calibre as it's the government - a majority govt - who create legislation (and vote down any opposition private members bills they disagree with, which is pretty much all of them) sooo it's the low calibre of govt TDs which should concern us yet YOU defend this govt at each and every turn.

I find that interesting.

RandomViewer

markodaly wrote: »

First of all, you do know that salaries paid to TD's and Ministers are linked to other Civil Service grades. Do you propose just to reduce the salary of TD's or all of the Civil Service, who don't forget are the permanent government in the country?

We need to get more talented people into politics, not less and by trying undercut their pay, anyone decent will leave in droves.

As a historian, you should know why politicians get a salary in the first place because before that, only the landed and very wealthy could afford to run for parliament. Giving a politician a salary was seen as serving the public interest.

https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2013/12/09/mps-pay-the-never-ending-controversy/



TLDR: Talk of TD salaries and the like is just pure populism.

There should be some sort of oversight of TDs performance, a warning for those who aren't pulling their weight and if that doesn't work a suggestion that maybe this isn't the job for you

James Brown

RandomViewer wrote: »

There should be some sort of oversight of TDs performance, a warning for those who aren't pulling their weight and if that doesn't work a suggestion that maybe this isn't the job for you

The Dara Murphy situation was disgraceful. Both Kenny and Varadkar knew he was double jobbing and over in Europe.
Varadkar only spoke on it after it was publicised in the papers.

RandomViewer

Bowie wrote: »

The Dara Murphy situation was disgraceful. Both Kenny and Varadkar knew he was double jobbing and over in Europe.
Varadkar only spoke on it after it was publicised in the papers.

I know nothing about the guy but can guess the type, they probably should have checked if he was signing on as well

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you really want me to go through the lengthy list of dodgy TDs since 1922?
Really?

Shall I do MEP's too?

Just to counter your rather politically biased list.

Thing is Blanch - it doesn't matter if the entire Opposition are in your opinion of low calibre as it's the government - a majority govt - who create legislation (and vote down any opposition private members bills they disagree with, which is pretty much all of them) sooo it's the low calibre of govt TDs which should concern us yet YOU defend this govt at each and every turn.

I find that interesting.

It included politicians associated with all three of the main parties, as well as a smattering of independents. I could include some of the idiots of the left as well (Gino, Paul Murphy, etc.) and another half-dozen SF TDs like the good man Aengus if you want.

There is barely a majority of decent TDs in the Dail.

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

There is barely a majority of decent TDs in the Dail.

Makes your desire to defend the govt at each and every turn even more inexplicable.

RandomViewer

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Makes your desire to defend the govt at each and every turn even more inexplicable.

It's either that or €203