FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Bannasidhe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't think the u-turn would come this quick.

I had a wager on that they would hold out until Sat before popping a U'ee.
Let down by this govt again. :mad:

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It doesn't i suppose.
But what is incompetence in one man's eyes is a mistake in another's, and we all make them.
Everyone both politically and in life is incompetent at some time or other, that doesn't mean they are wholly incompetent and no one will ever agree on everything any govt does.
Even themselves looking back will concede that.
And SF and the storey funeral debacle, was gross incompetence along with so many other things, does that make them incompetent and not fit for govt?

I agree on the mistake thing...sure, we all make them. But this isn't the first time this government was incompetent or too arrogant (jury is out on that) to ignore advice or to seek it.

What is your 'mistake' threshold?

You held an opposition party to far higher account than the actual government for making mistake.

Floppybits

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I agree on the mistake thing...sure, we all make them. But this isn't the first time this government was incompetent or too arrogant (jury is out on that) to ignore advice or to seek it.

What is your 'mistake' threshold?

You held an opposition party to far higher account than the actual government for making mistake.

There is no threshold as far as I can see especially after the way they defended Varadkar when he was caught leaking confidential documents and the way they tied themselves up in knots to excuse it. If they can condone/defend that then there is no threshold.

Fann Linn

Floppybits wrote: »

There is no threshold as far as I can see especially after the way they defended Varadkar when he was caught leaking confidential documents and the way they tied themselves up in knots to excuse it. If they can condone/defend that then there is no threshold.

Correct. If they spent more time governing instead of trawling through FB accounts of SF TDs and others they mightn't be so inept.

Fann Linn

O Donovan spinning and pointing everywhere in an attempt to defend their shambles on RTE 1 now.

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I agree on the mistake thing...sure, we all make them. But this isn't the first time this government was incompetent or too arrogant (jury is out on that) to ignore advice or to seek it.

What is your 'mistake' threshold?

You held an opposition party to far higher account than the actual government for making mistake.

No i didn't, they made plenty of mistakes that I wouldn't be happy with, some of them mentioned numerous times already.
But out of the Dáil we voted i came the govt we have.
I don't believe any party in the govt even are happy with the, arrangement they find themselves in either and that would be true if SF were involved too.
Another election would solve f all either bar that SF might be thrown in the mix, and if avoidable, by the others I doubt it.
Politics is full of incompetence, even the ones you or anyone else supports.
Admitting that is part of understanding politics.

Bannasidhe

Bishop of hope wrote: »

No i didn't, they made plenty of mistakes that I wouldn't be happy with, some of them mentioned numerous times already.
But out of the Dáil we voted i came the govt we have.
I don't believe any party in the govt even are happy with the, arrangement they find themselves in either and that would be true if SF were involved too.
Another election would solve f all either bar that SF might be thrown in the mix, and if avoidable, by the others I doubt it.
Politics is full of incompetence, even the ones you or anyone else supports.
Admitting that is part of understanding politics.

But seriously Bish, this current shower are like headless chickens.

The make announcements before talking to the various stakeholders and end up doubling down when the inevitable backlash occurs before finally rowing back.

They are penny pinching on one side (student nurses) while flinging millions at dodgy middlemen on the other (€14m to the ventilator purchasing event organiser).

They announce closures but with exceptions sending half the country into a frenzy trying to find out what those exceptions are only to find the info hasn't been updated at the time of announcement and when it it updated there are more loopholes then a box of over sweetened cereal.

No-one is sure if the various measures are "guidelines", "rules" or "laws".

They are too slow to react (although we would all prefer if they were pro-active rather than re-active) - the optics of "the cabinet will meet on Wednesday" following record positive cases on a Sunday are appalling. This is the biggest emergency faced by the Republic - meet on Monday goddammit. It can be done via Zoom ffs.

They are inconsistent.
We couldn't stop flights into the country = we stopped flights from the UK.
No need to a neg test to enter the country = you need a neg test to enter the country.
Track and trace all arrivals vital = don't have ability to actually do that.
Strict guidelines/rules/laws on movement = doesn't apply to residents of NI.
etc etc etc

Not to mention we have had govt senators flouting guidelines receiving a slap on the wrist and now we have a govt minister going Xmas shopping while awaiting results of a (positive) test with zero repercussions.

They are flip-flopping, slow to react, sending contradictory or unclear messages, not leading by example. The govt itself is part of the problem.
I hate to say this but when it was 'just' FG at least they reacted quickly, had clearer messaging, and at least gave the impression of a degree of competence.

Bishop of hope

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But seriously Bish, this current shower are like headless chickens.

The make announcements before talking to the various stakeholders and end up doubling down when the inevitable backlash occurs before finally rowing back.

They are penny pinching on one side (student nurses) while flinging millions at dodgy middlemen on the other (€14m to the ventilator purchasing event organiser).

They announce closures but with exceptions sending half the country into a frenzy trying to find out what those exceptions are only to find the info hasn't been updated at the time of announcement and when it it updated there are more loopholes then a box of over sweetened cereal.

No-one is sure if the various measures are "guidelines", "rules" or "laws".

They are too slow to react (although we would all prefer if they were pro-active rather than re-active) - the optics of "the cabinet will meet on Wednesday" following record positive cases on a Sunday are appalling. This is the biggest emergency faced by the Republic - meet on Monday goddammit. It can be done via Zoom ffs.

They are inconsistent.
We couldn't stop flights into the country = we stopped flights from the UK.
No need to a neg test to enter the country = you need a neg test to enter the country.
Track and trace all arrivals vital = don't have ability to actually do that.
Strict guidelines/rules/laws on movement = doesn't apply to residents of NI.
etc etc etc

Not to mention we have had govt senators flouting guidelines receiving a slap on the wrist and now we have a govt minister going Xmas shopping while awaiting results of a (positive) test with zero repercussions.

They are flip-flopping, slow to react, sending contradictory or unclear messages, not leading by example. The govt itself is part of the problem.
I hate to say this but when it was 'just' FG at least they reacted quickly, had clearer messaging, and at least gave the impression of a degree of competence.

Yes agreed, but the numbers they have, will keep them there.
A lot of what you mention is incidental stuff and, reactive to a worsening situation now.
No party here would have, tried to lock down Xmas and the numbers exploded above all expectations of even NPHET around that time.
Hunker down time ban, hope this is our last lockdown.
Maybe if the pandemic gets sorted by the vaccine we can hope for a govt that can concentrate on governing.

Bannasidhe

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Yes agreed, but the numbers they have, will keep them there.
A lot of what you mention is incidental stuff and, reactive to a worsening situation now.
No party here would have, tried to lock down Xmas and the numbers exploded above all expectations of even NPHET around that time.
Hunker down time ban, hope this is our last lockdown.
Maybe if the pandemic gets sorted by the vaccine we can hope for a govt that can concentrate on governing.

We cannot say what a govt consisting of other parties would have done and, imo and in no way a dig at you, to claim all parties would have acted the same is to play into a 'there was no other choice' narrative. There are always choices - they may not be popular but they exist. That is the narrative we heard around the bank bailout - along with the "we all [house] partied" - it's a trope that excuses govt being asleep at the wheel. Their job is to be awake, to anticipate, to have plans in case of worst case scenarios, and to ensure everyone is doing their jobs.
We didn't have that in 2011 and we don't have that now.

The reality is this will not be the last lockdown - or will be a cripplingly long lockdown - unless they get their collective arse in gear and I genuinely do not believe they have the skill sets required. The ministers for health and education are disasters, the Taoiseach is dithering and the Tánaiste is consistently going on an undermining solo run, the minister for housing has no real plan bar "developers" and we know that doesn't work.
We have a plethora of junior ministers and special advisors and a rudderless govt drifting towards an iceberg issuing PR statements that is this a crisis but don't PANIC.

They have neither the ability to govern nor the wit to realise it would have been in both their, and the country's, best interests to have an emergency govt of national unity for the duration of the pandemic and then go to the country for a GE with manifestos for where we go next... or going forward as the Taoiseach is so fond of saying...

James Brown

If FF/FG/Greens treated the tax paying public as 'their own' we might fare better. They seem quite capable of looking after 'their own'. IMO they are very handy at organising deals and policies when there's money to be made but erratic, to say the least, when coming to governing society.
If you are planning on closing/opening schools you talk to the teachers/unions/parents. This is basic stuff, it really is.

Senior hurling? Hardly.

Bishop of hope

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We cannot say what a govt consisting of other parties would have done and, imo and in no way a dig at you, to claim all parties would have acted the same is to play into a 'there was no other choice' narrative. There are always choices - they may not be popular but they exist. That is the narrative we heard around the bank bailout - along with the "we all [house] partied" - it's a trope that excuses govt being asleep at the wheel. Their job is to be awake, to anticipate, to have plans in case of worst case scenarios, and to ensure everyone is doing their jobs.
We didn't have that in 2011 and we don't have that now.

The reality is this will not be the last lockdown - or will be a cripplingly long lockdown - unless they get their collective arse in gear and I genuinely do not believe they have the skill sets required. The ministers for health and education are disasters, the Taoiseach is dithering and the Tánaiste is consistently going on an undermining solo run, the minister for housing has no real plan bar "developers" and we know that doesn't work.
We have a plethora of junior ministers and special advisors and a rudderless govt drifting towards an iceberg issuing PR statements that is this a crisis but don't PANIC.

They have neither the ability to govern nor the wit to realise it would have been in both their, and the country's, best interests to have an emergency govt of national unity for the duration of the pandemic and then go to the country for a GE with manifestos for where we go next... or going forward as the Taoiseach is so fond of saying...

I never said any other govt would have been worse, but they could have been.
But judging on the national govt in the north and it containing our major opposition there's little solace there.
Add that this was brexit year, a, govt containing any SF ministers here would have been a, disaster on that front and I think highly unlikely the UK would have agreed anything that they thought had a SF edge on it.
Still I'm as mystified as many with some of our govt decisions and accept they're all over the place ré covid. But I also accept that's a fluid situation and people move the virus, not the govt.
But I stuck to the health advice personally and so far so good. FFG/Greens didn't get me yet, or the vast majority of people.

McMurphy

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I never said any other govt would have been worse, but they could have been.
But judging on the national govt in the north and it containing our major opposition there's little solace there.
Add that this was brexit year, a, govt containing any SF ministers here would have been a, disaster on that front and I think highly unlikely the UK would have agreed anything that they thought had a SF edge on it.
Still I'm as mystified as many with some of our govt decisions and accept they're all over the place ré covid. But I also accept that's a fluid situation and people move the virus, not the govt.
But I stuck to the health advice personally and so far so good. FFG/Greens didn't get me yet, or the vast majority of people.

I think you're confusing the UK with the DUP and FG tbh. The rest of the political partys over there couldn't care less.

Bishop of hope

McMurphy wrote: »

I think you're confusing the UK with the DUP and FG tbh. The rest of the political partys over there couldn't care less.

You show a lack of awareness there I'd say Mc.
The conservatives would burn them at the stake if they could.

Cluedo Monopoly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I had a wager on that they would hold out until Sat before popping a U'ee.
Let down by this govt again. :mad:

I knew they would back down by Friday. It was an utterly bizarre idea. You'd have to wonder what goes on at cabinet.

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

You show a lack of awareness there I'd say Mc.
The conservatives would burn them at the stake if they could.

The Tories would be having tea with MON if it was to their advantage. They only give Foster the time of day for votes. I think you are bringing the delusion of party ethics and political philosophy into the British Conservatives. Boris couldn't give a fig about unionism.

McMurphy

Bishop of hope wrote: »

You show a lack of awareness there I'd say Mc.
The conservatives would burn them at the stake if they could.

The conservatives, like most of the Brits don't care if you're orange or green bish, to them - if you're from this island you're Irish, and they'll treat you accordingly based on that.

The dupers, after being royally (no pun intended) shafted by the British govt are slowly starting to realise it.

Bannasidhe

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I never said any other govt would have been worse, but they could have been.
But judging on the national govt in the north and it containing our major opposition there's little solace there.
Add that this was brexit year, a, govt containing any SF ministers here would have been a, disaster on that front and I think highly unlikely the UK would have agreed anything that they thought had a SF edge on it.
Still I'm as mystified as many with some of our govt decisions and accept they're all over the place ré covid. But I also accept that's a fluid situation and people move the virus, not the govt.
But I stuck to the health advice personally and so far so good. FFG/Greens didn't get me yet, or the vast majority of people.

Ah come on Bish.
I am no supporter of SF but in fairness the situation in NI is completely different.

Westminster holds the purse strings for a start - and determines a hell a lot of the laws plus the administration there can best be describes as a pull me/push you shotgun coalition. It is not by any stretch of the imagination a government. It does not even have as much say as the Scottish devolved Parliament.

Plus the UK gov already agreed to SF being in the NI administration decades ago so I don't know why you think they have an issue. The one's who have an issue with SF being "fit" are FF and FG.

The "SF would be worse" trope is just another in the lame excuse arsenal rolled out to excuse the ineptitude of the two parties who have governed this State since it's formation and presided over endless boom-busts, abuse scandals, cost over runs, fiscal irresponsibility, dodgy TDs, cronyism etc etc etc.
It would be interesting to see how SF could actually be worse tbh and guess what - they might actually be better :P
(still not voting for them tho :pac:)

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

The conservatives, like most of the Brits don't care if you're orange or green bish, to them - if you're from this island you're Irish, and they'll treat you accordingly based on that.

The dupers, after being royally (no pun intended) shafted by the British govt are slowly starting to realise it.

Multiple times at this stage. The penny has dropped but has yet to find public voice with the faithful.

Bishop of hope

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah come on Bish.
I am no supporter of SF but in fairness the situation in NI is completely different.

Westminster holds the purse strings for a start - and determines a hell a lot of the laws plus the administration there can best be describes as a pull me/push you shotgun coalition. It is not by any stretch of the imagination a government. It does not even have as much say as the Scottish devolved Parliament.

Plus the UK gov already agreed to SF being in the NI administration decades ago so I don't know why you think they have an issue. The one's who have an issue with SF being "fit" are FF and FG.

The "SF would be worse" trope is just another in the lame excuse arsenal rolled out to excuse the ineptitude of the two parties who have governed this State since it's formation and presided over endless boom-busts, abuse scandals, cost over runs, fiscal irresponsibility, dodgy TDs, cronyism etc etc etc.
It would be interesting to see how SF could actually be worse tbh and guess what - they might actually be better :P
(still not voting for them tho :pac:)

LOL, OK, me neither.
Who you voting for that might be better btw, given the rest are just nowhere and apart from being like the Greens, bit players who will be in govt with some of them. (maybe)

Bannasidhe

Bishop of hope wrote: »

LOL, OK, me neither.
Who you voting for that might be better btw, given the rest are just nowhere and apart from being like the Greens, bit players who will be in govt with some of them. (maybe)

For now I'm sticking with the Soc Dems. I like the cut of their jibs - however should they turn out to be Labour 2.0 I shall take my vote elsewhere.
I will also vote for PBP because I appreciate members of the Opposition who are attack terriers and actually put it up 'em.
For too long in this country govt has been a rota with no real difference between the 2 sides - that's not healthy in a democracy.

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Multiple times at this stage. The penny has dropped but has yet to find public voice with the faithful.

Watching it unfold was a guilty pleasure for me I don't mind telling you Francie.

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

Watching it unfold was a guilty pleasure for me I don't mind telling you Francie.

Like slapstick - the classic scene where we can see two people running along different sides of a building...there's comedy in the inevitable collision, but also comedy because you know what is going to happen, long before it does.

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

For now I'm sticking with the Soc Dems. I like the cut of their jibs - however should they turn out to be Labour 2.0 I shall take my vote elsewhere.
I will also vote for PBP because I appreciate members of the Opposition who are attack terriers and actually put it up 'em.
For too long in this country govt has been a rota with no real difference between the 2 sides - that's not healthy in a democracy.

I’d prefer an opposition who put solid practical policies which are advantageous to all our population myself.

The fact that there may be no real ‘difference ‘ shouldn’t matter as long as the policies are in favour of the majority of the population and not just roaring and shouting for the sake of it.

We need to clear out those folk whose only interest in being elected is to hold on to the wedge with populist policies with no interest in making decisions which advance our country.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I’d prefer an opposition who put solid practical policies which are advantageous to all our population myself.

The fact that there may be no real ‘difference ‘ shouldn’t matter as long as the policies are in favour of the majority of the population and not just roaring and shouting for the sake of it.

We need to clear out those folk whose only interest in being elected is to hold on to the wedge with populist policies with no interest in making decisions which advance our country.

Touch of the old arrogance that needs to disappear - 'I know what is good for the population'.

blanch152

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Good FDI news and all credit to the IDA for keeping Ireland as a great place to locate business during a pandemic.

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1347173956424495105?s=19

This is the good news that gets lost on here amid all of the tripe and bile and nonsense being splurged.

Well done to the IDA. Without them, and the foresight of the FF and FG governments that supported them over the years, this country would be a much worse place.

Brendan Bendar

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the good news that gets lost on here amid all of the tripe and bile and nonsense being splurged.

Well done to the IDA. Without them, and the foresight of the FF and FG governments that supported them over the years, this country would be a much worse place.

Good news...!!!. Blanch, I’m strongly thinking of reporting that post.

Surely you should know that ‘good news’ is not appropriate for this thread.

Just as well I’m in good humour.

Suckit

blanch152

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I’d prefer an opposition who put solid practical policies which are advantageous to all our population myself.

The fact that there may be no real ‘difference ‘ shouldn’t matter as long as the policies are in favour of the majority of the population and not just roaring and shouting for the sake of it.

We need to clear out those folk whose only interest in being elected is to hold on to the wedge with populist policies with no interest in making decisions which advance our country.

I have to agree with this.

If a political party actually called for an increase in the LPT and the introduction of water charges, I would give them a vote. The tax base needs to be widened dramatically.

Unfortunately, we have an opposition that is only interested in protest politics, opposing everything regardless of merit.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

The Tories would be having tea with MON if it was to their advantage. They only give Foster the time of day for votes. I think you are bringing the delusion of party ethics and political philosophy into the British Conservatives. Boris couldn't give a fig about unionism.

McMurphy wrote: »

The conservatives, like most of the Brits don't care if you're orange or green bish, to them - if you're from this island you're Irish, and they'll treat you accordingly based on that.

The dupers, after being royally (no pun intended) shafted by the British govt are slowly starting to realise it.

Lads, you spent two years telling us that if Sinn Fein turned up in Westminister to vote down Brexit, that would drive Tories to vote for it just because Sinn Fein oppose it.

You can't come out with this sort of nonsense having spent so much time saying the opposite.

Cluedo Monopoly

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I’d prefer an opposition who put solid practical policies which are advantageous to all our population myself.

The fact that there may be no real ‘difference ‘ shouldn’t matter as long as the policies are in favour of the majority of the population and not just roaring and shouting for the sake of it.

We need to clear out those folk whose only interest in being elected is to hold on to the wedge with populist policies with no interest in making decisions which advance our country.

Go on, what legislation or policy have the coalition of chaos delivered since govt formation in June?

And you cannot claim anything from NPHET.