FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed. People ignoring guidelines still expect the government to hold their hands.

If it's down to the people, why bother with any 'levels'?

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If it's down to the people, why bother with any 'levels'?

Tbh Francie its down to the people in every level
At this stage the levels are only there to manage hospital capacity
Its probably little to do with virus now
A dear and old friend passed away of this scourge at noon today
He would be alive a lot longer only for it but it can't be got into thick skulls to keep away from people who may be old or vulnerable if they are going to mix in dangerous crowds partying

Nobotty

Nobotty wrote: »

Tbh Francie its down to the people in every level
At this stage the levels are only there to manage hospital capacity
Its probably little to do with virus now
A dear and old friend passed away of this scourge at noon today
He would be alive a lot longer only for it but it can't be got into thick skulls to keep away from people who may be old or vulnerable if they are going to mix in dangerous crowds partying

May he Rest In Peace. Sorry for your loss.

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

Tbh Francie its down to the people in every level
At this stage the levels are only there to manage hospital capacity
Its probably little to do with virus now
A dear and old friend passed away of this scourge at noon today
He would be alive a lot longer only for it but it can't be got into thick skulls to keep away from people who may be old or vulnerable if they are going to mix in dangerous crowds partying

RIP to your friend.

My point is why put the responsibility on people as a way to deflect blame from the government and it's agencies. They have a job to do and if they don't do it, you can't turn around an go 'ah but, if only the people....'. It a ridiculous defensive deflection.

Nobotty

Thanks folks
Francie,we'll have to disagree on people's responsibility
Level 5 won't fix that impact
Only a vaccine will
This government needs to give the Gardai powers to implement the regulations but they're too lilly livered
There's no votes in fines

smurgen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Indeed. People ignoring guidelines still expect the government to hold their hands.

Indeed Government attacking experts and expecting people to follow the guidelines set forth by the experts.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RIP to your friend.

My point is why put the responsibility on people as a way to deflect blame from the government and it's agencies. They have a job to do and if they don't do it, you can't turn around an go 'ah but, if only the people....'. It a ridiculous defensive deflection.

So the bigger problems in the North are all on the Stormont government then?

blanch152

Nobotty wrote: »

Thanks folks
Francie,we'll have to disagree on people's responsibility
Level 5 won't fix that impact
Only a vaccine will
This government needs to give the Gardai powers to implement the regulations but they're too lilly livered
There's no votes in fines

There are fines in Northern Ireland, but it is worse up there.

Truthvader

Nobotty wrote: »

Thanks folks
Francie,we'll have to disagree on people's responsibility
Level 5 won't fix that impact
Only a vaccine will
This government needs to give the Gardai powers to implement the regulations but they're too lilly livered
There's no votes in fines

Expect the truth is that if the punishment is swift enough and vicious enough compliance can be assured. The downside is complaints about civil liberties and cries of "fascism" from the opposition. You would expect that as peoples own lives are in the mix you might rely on some kind of self preservation instinct but sadly as Gemma has proven people are marching for the right to die of stupidity. And not just in Ireland. Worldwide stupidity seems more dangerous than any virus. Trump in America, Boris next door and yesterday a man beheaded by an 18 year old boy for showing a class a picture of an entity or prophet that is extremely unlikely to exist or have existed at all. Maybe the virus represents the arrival of a superior intelligence

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

So the bigger problems in the North are all on the Stormont government then?

Absolutely, the state has failed blanch, I keep telling you that...they have these problems all the time.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Absolutely, the state has failed blanch, I keep telling you that...they have these problems all the time.

Are France and Spain failed states too, because of their high rates of the virus?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Are France and Spain failed states too, because of their high rates of the virus?

No, the cumulative evidence in northern Ireland leads me to the opinion. France or Spain do not require a special international agreement between two sovereign countries to even begin to function. It all started with a disastrous partitioning of an island.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, the cumulative evidence in northern Ireland leads me to the opinion. France or Spain do not require a special international agreement between two sovereign countries to even begin to function. It all started with a disastrous partitioning of an island.

There is a leap in your logic. You have to prove the following first:

(1) There has been a failure to control the pandemic in Northern Ireland.
(2) The governing parties in Northern Ireland have failed in their duty to control the pandemic
(3) The failure of the governing parties had nothing to do with the calibre of the government and something else is at fault
(4) The something else is partition.

You refuse to accept (2) and you haven't even attempted to prove (3).

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There is a leap in your logic. You have to prove the following first:

(1) There has been a failure to control the pandemic in Northern Ireland.
(2) The governing parties in Northern Ireland have failed in their duty to control the pandemic
(3) The failure of the governing parties had nothing to do with the calibre of the government and something else is at fault
(4) The something else is partition.

You refuse to accept (2) and you haven't even attempted to prove (3).

I do accept (2). The governing parties are unable to govern because of the divisions caused by a partitioning of the island. They have (all of them) failed.

I keep saying this BTW.

Colonel Claptrap

The man looks knackered.

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1317556797855748096?s=20

Colonel Claptrap

Fine Gael 31 (+1)
Sinn Fein 30 (-2)
Fianna Fail 19 (nc)
Greens 5 (nc)
Labour 4 (+1)
Independents/others 10 (-1)

blanch152

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Fine Gael 31 (+1)
Sinn Fein 30 (-2)
Fianna Fail 19 (nc)
Greens 5 (nc)
Labour 4 (+1)
Independents/others 10 (-1)

55% support for the Government, still commanding a decent majority of support, despite having to deal with possibly the biggest crisis this country has ever faced.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

55% support for the Government, still commanding a decent majority of support, despite having to deal with possibly the biggest crisis this country has ever faced.

:D:D It isn't a poll on the 'government'.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I do accept (2). The governing parties are unable to govern because of the divisions caused by a partitioning of the island. They have (all of them) failed.

I keep saying this BTW.

Yes, you keep saying this, but that doesn't make it true.

The rest of us can point to the stupidity of Michelle O'Neill's actions at the Storey political rally and to the futility of closing schools, the Spend and Save initiative which filled the pubs in August and spread the virus, the delays in decision-making etc. All of these were preventable by politicians doing their job properly.

If the fact of partition is at fault, it would have to be demonstrated and proved that the pandemic outcome was out of the hands of the politicians. It clearly wasn't and you haven't proved the alternative.

Anyway, this is way off-topic, so I will leave it there.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D:D It isn't a poll on the 'government'.

You can be pedantic if you want, but the point is that the government would be re-elected if there was an election tomorrow, and a majority of people would vote for the current government.

There is a definite democratic legitimacy to whatever they do. In the current crisis, that is astonishing. Look across the water where the Conservative government support has falled below 40%.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, you keep saying this, but that doesn't make it true.

The rest of us can point to the stupidity of Michelle O'Neill's actions at the Storey political rally and to the futility of closing schools, the Spend and Save initiative which filled the pubs in August and spread the virus, the delays in decision-making etc. All of these were preventable by politicians doing their job properly.

If the fact of partition is at fault, it would have to be demonstrated and proved that the pandemic outcome was out of the hands of the politicians. It clearly wasn't and you haven't proved the alternative.

Anyway, this is way off-topic, so I will leave it there.

The failure comes from the politicians inability to work together with common goals.
You have had people from all political parties on this island make mistakes, ignore or dither on decision making, that is common.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You can be pedantic if you want, but the point is that the government would be re-elected if there was an election tomorrow, and a majority of people would vote for the current government.

There is a definite democratic legitimacy to whatever they do. In the current crisis, that is astonishing. Look across the water where the Conservative government support has falled below 40%.

They would first have to say they would go back into the same coalition...would they hold their support in that case...we don't know. While the Greens have support in this poll, would it hold if they said they would go back in with FG FF. No way of knowing that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They would first have to say they would go back into the same coalition...would they hold their support in that case...we don't know. While the Greens have support in this poll, would it hold if they said they would go back in with FG FF. No way of knowing that.

I would expect them to say that they will fight the election as independent parties and consider what happens afterwards.

Should be enough to deliver 60% between them if the election was tomorrow, as the current poll assumes them going for re-election as a government.

Let us see what happens between now and then, things may get worse, giving further succour to the Trump/Johnson/Brexit/SF type of politician. Alternatively, realism may set in and go the opposite way boosting the parties that take decisions and govern properly. In that case, you could see either FF or FG governing again without the other.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I would expect them to say that they will fight the election as independent parties and consider what happens afterwards.

Should be enough to deliver 60% between them if the election was tomorrow, as the current poll assumes them going for re-election as a government.

Let us see what happens between now and then, things may get worse, giving further succour to the Trump/Johnson/Brexit/SF type of politician. Alternatively, realism may set in and go the opposite way boosting the parties that take decisions and govern properly. In that case, you could see either FF or FG governing again without the other.

That's a Utopian fantasy.

FrancieBrady

Great, another Sunday of will they won't they. And most likely followed by a weak decision afraid to admit that they made the wrong decision the last time.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Great, another Sunday of will they won't they. And most likely followed by a weak decision afraid to admit that they made the wrong decision the last time.

No matter what they do, some will declare it the wrong decision. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The government has to balance the well-being of the people, in both health and welfare situations. The bottom line is, it’s up to each and every one of us to do our utmost to protect ourselves and those around us. Where’s the point in me working from home, avoiding people where possible only for one who we cannot avoid going out partying and ignoring guidelines.

Kowerski

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Great, another Sunday of will they won't they. And most likely followed by a weak decision afraid to admit that they made the wrong decision the last time.

At this stage does it make a difference if the government moves from 3-4-5? the numbers are so high, people should just be resticting all movements themselves. Are you not old enough to know what you should/shouldn't be doing? do you need the governement to tell you when you need to wipe your bum?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

No matter what they do, some will declare it the wrong decision. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The government has to balance the well-being of the people, in both health and welfare situations. The bottom line is, it’s up to each and every one of us to do our utmost to protect ourselves and those around us. Where’s the point in me working from home, avoiding people where possible only for one who we cannot avoid going out partying and ignoring guidelines.

They should have taken the advice they got a wet week ago. Here we are spending another Sunday knowing they will tighten the restrictions yet again. I.E. The decision to ignore the advice was clearly wrong...the predictions of NPHET are coming true.

They are asking us to heed advice when they arrogantly can't take it themselves...we'll get a weak 4.899999.5 level on Monday because no doubt Leo will spend Monday insisting nobody says '5'. Joke level stuff.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They should have taken the advice they got a wet week ago. Here we are spending another Sunday knowing they will tighten the restrictions yet again. I.E. The decision to ignore the advice was clearly wrong...the predictions of NPHET are coming true.

They are asking us to heed advice when they arrogantly can't take it themselves...we'll get a weak 4.899999.5 level on Monday because no doubt Leo will spend Monday insisting nobody says '5'. Joke level stuff.

Aaannndddd..... What about the people’s part in this? Wait for the government to stand beside each one of us and tell us when to wear a mask, wash/sanitise our hands, avoid unnecessary contact with others outside our households? People have to start copping on.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Aaannndddd..... What about the people’s part in this? Wait for the government to stand beside each one of us and tell us when to wear a mask, wash/sanitise our hands, avoid unnecessary contact with others outside our households? People have to start copping on.

That was exactly the same as t was a week ago.

The government have to cop on and act decisively, stop allowing PR obsessed members tinkering with health advice.