FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

FreudianSlippers

blanch152 wrote: »

The using of victims for political purposes by Boyd-Barrett and the like over the last couple of days has been nothing short of disgusting.

Honestly with all the pseudo-intellectualism coming from a certain poster I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was RBB himself.

Wanderer78

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Honestly with all the pseudo-intellectualism coming from a certain poster I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was RBB himself.

id imagine a couple of politicians are wondering around here alright

FreudianSlippers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The needs of the economy were far more important, the poor petal it is

smurgen wrote: »

What needs of the economy are being met now?

IMHO it was pure populist garbage and, as per usual, a give-in to their relatives on the LVA (and let's not act like that's limited to FF/FG... everyone in politics seems to have some kompromat over their head by the way they cave to their every demand).

The "spin" now of being like "well yiz wanted this and we warned you!" is only half bull****. I'd imagine we'd have the usual suspects on here moaning about Christmas being cancelled by the FF/FG Government if they didn't relax restrictions.

There's no winning with the professional hurlers from the ditch, but even a stopped clock is correct twice a day and on the relaxation of rules over Christmas, they're correct. It was a huge mistake.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I am embarrassed for you Blanch. Today of all days, cop on and show some empathy.

You tell him, Catherine!

FreudianSlippers

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I am embarrassed for you Blanch. Today of all days, cop on and show some empathy.

Straight out of the NRA's playbook - mass shooting occurs and people want to talk about gun control, cue NRA: "Today of all days, cop on and show some empathy."

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Straight out of the NRA's playbook - mass shooting occurs and people want to talk about gun control, cue NRA: "Today of all days, cop on and show some empathy."

blanch wants to talk about the 'RA and the Shinners.
blanch always wants to talk about the 'RA and the Shinners when the party he doesn't vote for is under fire.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch wants to talk about the 'RA and the Shinners.
blanch always wants to talk about the 'RA and the Shinners when the party he doesn't vote for is under fire.

There are an awful lot of angry white male republicans on this thread complaining about the government and the State. It has echoes of somewhere else that I can't quite put my finger on.

The culture and society that led to the mother and baby homes scandal was one created by the angry white male republicans of the time, with the same toxic exclusionary nationalist ideology as those of today, albeit one more deeply rooted in the mores of the Catholic Church and from a different political party.

RandomViewer

blanch152 wrote: »

There are an awful lot of angry white male republicans on this thread complaining about the government and the State. It has echoes of somewhere else that I can't quite put my finger on.

The culture and society that led to the mother and baby homes scandal was one created by the angry white male republicans of the time, with the same toxic exclusionary nationalist ideology as those of today, albeit one more deeply rooted in the mores of the Catholic Church and from a different political party.

FF/FG acted hand in hand with the churches( CofI) had homes as well, rattling on trying to deflect that at least one current FG TD's father would have been directly involved with the homes

James Brown

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Exactly, the needs of the economy, now no longer match the needs of the humans it was created for

That's the thing. For years we hear about the economy and how we can't breathe without it being put first. As we suffer, but the economy! As we face year on year worsening crises we are told, but the economy!
It's time the onus was put on society and not the tier who make a fortune off the low/middle income tax payer while services and crises worsen.
There's talk around the world of Covid bringing home what's needed, calls to 'change the way we do business' if you will. Of course being FF/FG Ireland, even after the financial meltdown we wouldn't change the tune.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

There are an awful lot of angry white male republicans on this thread complaining about the government and the State. It has echoes of somewhere else that I can't quite put my finger on.

The culture and society that led to the mother and baby homes scandal was one created by the angry white male republicans of the time, with the same toxic exclusionary nationalist ideology as those of today, albeit one more deeply rooted in the mores of the Catholic Church and from a different political party.

The brass neck of this comment is unreal.
Even in 2021 FF/FG can't be honest about their major role in aiding and abetting the horror inflicted on women and broader society. You have yet to comment outside of deflecting away from the subject.
This happened into the 90's and today FF/FG government are fudging and covering for their parties and the church.
The report only released the other day has been roundly criticised by the survivors.
Trying to put this on republicans or anyone else is dishonest fantasy. FF/FG learned long ago to keep quiet on this and it seems they've not changed.

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

There are an awful lot of angry white male republicans on this thread complaining about the government and the State. It has echoes of somewhere else that I can't quite put my finger on.

The culture and society that led to the mother and baby homes scandal was one created by the angry white male republicans of the time, with the same toxic exclusionary nationalist ideology as those of today, albeit one more deeply rooted in the mores of the Catholic Church and from a different political party.

Own it blanch. It's the parties of govt which you defend here on a daily basis which aided and abetted the horrors of the nursing homes. No one else.

BloodBath

blanch152 wrote: »

There are an awful lot of angry white male republicans on this thread complaining about the government and the State. It has echoes of somewhere else that I can't quite put my finger on.

The culture and society that led to the mother and baby homes scandal was one created by the angry white male republicans of the time, with the same toxic exclusionary nationalist ideology as those of today, albeit one more deeply rooted in the mores of the Catholic Church and from a different political party.

What has anyone's race got to do with it? What a stupid comment. No **** it's Europe, the vast majority of people are white. But of course it's "white mens" fault and not the RCC who controlled the state and the majority of the mindset of all people at the time.

So sick of Irish people using this dumbass American rhetoric.

blanch152

BloodBath wrote: »

What has anyone's race got to do with it? What a stupid comment. No **** it's Europe, the vast majority of people are white. But of course it's "white mens" fault and not the RCC who controlled the state and the majority of the mindset of all people at the time.

So sick of Irish people using this dumbass American rhetoric.

Sectarianism and exclusionary nationalism are of the same ideological bent as racism. The parallels are plain to see.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There are an awful lot of angry white male republicans on this thread complaining about the government and the State. It has echoes of somewhere else that I can't quite put my finger on.

The culture and society that led to the mother and baby homes scandal was one created by the angry white male republicans of the time, with the same toxic exclusionary nationalist ideology as those of today, albeit one more deeply rooted in the mores of the Catholic Church and from a different political party.

The Church, the governing parties of the time and the state institutions and apparatus they ran were responsible for Mother and Bay Homes.
The culture and society of the time was engendered, underpinned and sustained by the Church, the governing parties of the time and the state institutions and apparatus they ran.

I.E. a vicious circle.

FreudianSlippers

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Church, the governing parties of the time and the state institutions and apparatus they ran were responsible for Mother and Bay Homes.
The culture and society of the time was engendered, underpinned and sustained by the Church, the governing parties of the time and the state institutions and apparatus they ran.

I.E. a vicious circle.

I think you're probably correct, but I don't see any evidence that any other party in power would have done anything differently do you?

Bubbaclaus

Great to see the vaccine rollout going so well, one of best in the EU so far and indeed globally. Once we have enough vaccine supply we will start to hopefully see real differences in hospitalizations with this virus.

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think you're probably correct, but I don't see any evidence that any other party in power would have done anything differently do you?

Well yes I do.

For instance: FG and FF held bigoted views about SSM and Adoption until quite recently, while the parties in opposition tried in vain to achieve rights for them.Many of those who held those views are STILL in senior positions in government.
FF and FG fought Louise O'Keefe all the way to the European court and AFAIK have still not implemented the findings/recommendations of that court.
Government did a sweetheart deal with the church that allowed them avoid paying. ETC ETC.

There is still work to be done to fully separate church and state.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Sectarianism and exclusionary nationalism are of the same ideological bent as racism. The parallels are plain to see.

What about a party that supports the fascist movement, rebrands and has a councilor today who admires their fascist roots? Would they clearly be of the same ideological bent as racism or is that different?

Try honesty and comment on the FF/FG parties who were complicit rather than these fantastic voyages of yours?
You've yet to speak on the subject opting to lay blame elsewhere. Is this the alternative we should be embracing?

FreudianSlippers

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well yes I do.

For instance: FG and FF held bigoted views about SSM and Adoption until quite recently, while the parties in opposition tried in vain to achieve rights for them.Many of those who held those views are STILL in senior positions in government.
FF and FG fought Louise O'Keefe all the way to the European court and AFAIK have still not implemented the findings/recommendations of that court.
Government did a sweetheart deal with the church that allowed them avoid paying. ETC ETC.

Sorry you're describing populism though. I don't think there was a widespread view against mother and baby homes at the time until very recently due to the grip of the RC on the country that would have lead to any party treating the RC differently.

I'm not quite ready to shift the blame onto FF's shoulders entirely for this one just yet. My blame still lands squarely on the RC and its grasp on all levels of society until very recently.

There is still work to be done to fully separate church and state.

Wholeheartedly agree and I don't believe that MM or anyone else who knew about or ought to have known about these abuses human rights violations should be sitting politicians.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well yes I do.

For instance: FG and FF held bigoted views about SSM and Adoption until quite recently, while the parties in opposition tried in vain to achieve rights for them.Many of those who held those views are STILL in senior positions in government.
FF and FG fought Louise O'Keefe all the way to the European court and AFAIK have still not implemented the findings/recommendations of that court.
Government did a sweetheart deal with the church that allowed them avoid paying. ETC ETC.

There is still work to be done to fully separate church and state.

They will not be honest with the public and will not accept their role. Therefore this will never be dealt with in a just and respectful manner.

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Sorry you're describing populism though. I don't think there was a widespread view against mother and baby homes at the time until very recently due to the grip of the RC on the country that would have lead to any party treating the RC differently.

I'm not quite ready to shift the blame onto FF's shoulders entirely for this one just yet. My blame still lands squarely on the RC and its grasp on all levels of society until very recently.

Wholeheartedly agree and I don't believe that MM or anyone else who knew about or ought to have known about these abuses human rights violations should be sitting politicians.

FG and FF were more than happy with the arrangement, they never tried to break it and facilitated the control. Summed up in a photo of the Taoiseach of the day kissing the ring of the cardinal or archbishop.

FreudianSlippers

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG and FF were more than happy with the arrangement, they never tried to break it and facilitated the control. Summed up in a photo of the Taoiseach of the day kissing the ring of the cardinal or archbishop.

Yes, but you're trying to use modern examples to prove how another hypothetical party would have acted historically. It's a leap at best, muddied even more by both the grasp of the RC in this country at the time and the general approval of the RC by its populous.

You simply cannot hold the lens of modern Ireland against the lens of even Ireland 20-30 years ago.

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yes, but you're trying to use modern examples to prove how another hypothetical party would have acted historically. It's a leap at best, muddied even more by both the grasp of the RC in this country at the time and the general approval of the RC by its populous.

You simply cannot hold the lens of modern Ireland against the lens of even Ireland 20-30 years ago.

I'm not bothered in pointless what-if navel gazing in order to avoid pointing a finger of blame.

These two parties by dint of their power swap facilitated the Church - end off. I don't care what others 'might' have done, the fact is these 2 parties did it and many people are dead and countless more lives have been destroyed because of it.

James Brown

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yes, but you're trying to use modern examples to prove how another hypothetical party would have acted historically. It's a leap at best, muddied even more by both the grasp of the RC in this country at the time and the general approval of the RC by its populous.

You simply cannot hold the lens of modern Ireland against the lens of even Ireland 20-30 years ago.

If you heard the survivors on the report you'd know the blind eye is still being turned by the state today.
We are talking generations of complicit behaviour from successive FF/FG governments. IMO that's why they refuse to tackle this issue in a complete manner. They are worried about votes.
What other parties may or may not have done doesn't come into it IMO.

FrancieBrady

Bowie wrote: »

If you heard the survivors on the report you'd know the blind eye is still being turned by the state today.
We are talking generations of complicit behaviour from successive FF/FG governments. IMO that's why they refuse to tackle this issue in a complete manner. They are worried about votes.
What other parties may or may not have done doesn't come into it IMO.

Freudian Slippers and others attempts to dilute the responsibility here is to be complicit in it IMO.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

What about a party that supports the fascist movement, rebrands and has a councilor today who admires their fascist roots? Would they clearly be of the same ideological bent as racism or is that different?

Try honesty and comment on the FF/FG parties who were complicit rather than these fantastic voyages of yours?
You've yet to speak on the subject opting to lay blame elsewhere. Is this the alternative we should be embracing?

We are on the FF/FG/Green thread. None of them correspond to your description.

I blamed the exclusionary nationalist and republican viewpoint of the FF party of the 1930s and 1940s for much of what happened. They wanted to create a self-sufficient Catholic little island, they veered differently from an economic perspective once Lemass became Taoiseach, but they never really lost their societal viewpoint of Catholic nationalism which lingered right up until Michael Woods did the disgraceful deal with the Church.

I am very wary of that type of ideology. Nationalism in its various forms, be that fascistic, racist, socialist, or republican is the biggest threat to peace and human rights.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Freudian Slippers and others attempts to dilute the responsibility here is to be complicit in it IMO.

Are you denying the findings of the Commission?

FreudianSlippers

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not bothered in pointless what-if navel gazing in order to avoid pointing a finger of blame.

These two parties by dint of their power swap facilitated the Church - end off. I don't care what others 'might' have done, the fact is these 2 parties did it and many people are dead and countless more lives have been destroyed because of it.

You claim not to be bothered, yet that's literally the only thing you're doing...

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not bothered in pointless what-if navel gazing in order to avoid pointing a finger of blame.

These two parties by dint of their power swap facilitated the Church - end off. I don't care what others 'might' have done, the fact is these 2 parties did it and many people are dead and countless more lives have been destroyed because of it.

You are using victims in a shameless way to try to score cheap inaccurate political points on an anonymous internet site.

So why would you be bothered with what-if navel gazing?

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You claim not to be bothered, yet that's literally the only thing you're doing...

I am not bothered imagining another party into the situation to dilute the blame of the two parties who swapped power between them while nothing, absolutely nothing changed. The two of them are equally culpable.