FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Bishop of hope

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would ff and fg,not be closer,having all but identical policies?

No, not idealogically.

blanch152

Bishop of hope wrote: »

And that's not a strange thing in these parts.
Govts have been propped up by individuals that 99.9% didn't vote for.
Party's have to find a way to overcome voter apathy if they want to govern.
Overall it looks like this pattern will continue.
SF and others are looking for an FFG merger, highly unlikely in the short term at least, as they feel it would turn it into a two horse race which would then favour either or being in a majority position. Plausible enough thinking too.
My thinking at present is that it is likely FF/SF will at least coalesce soon, if not next election then probably next after that.
FF are much more like SF than FG in reality.

This is pretty accurate.

It was only Micheal Martin's knowledge and memory of what Sinn Fein really are and his abhorrence of that that prevented a FF/SF coalition last year. Others in FF are well capable of putting decency aside and doing business with SF.

Bishop of hope

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They are....what is the major idological difference....as long as i can remember,both have pushed and advanced essentially the same social and econmic policies??


It has ended in diaster,but served their base and interests well,but time has run out on it worldwide,and now they're gasping for air,unable to realise time is up

That's to be told.
But yes I agree their Monopoly of power swap is over.
Might be good to see what change it will bring in the landscape of how the country progresses.
My bet is much the same, same cycle of boom and austerity.
We aren't in charge of our destiny anymore anyway one way or another.
Totally dependent on foreign multinational investment.
Any party that changes that will bust the country.
We can no longer survive on an indigenous economy.
So really apart from flag waving and party shouting, that's our lot.

Bishop of hope

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's to be told.
But yes I agree their Monopoly of power swap is over.
Might be good to see what change it will bring in the landscape of how the country progresses.
My bet is much the same, same cycle of boom and austerity.
We aren't in charge of our destiny anymore anyway one way or another.
Totally dependent on foreign multinational investment.
Any party that changes that will bust the country.
We can no longer survive on an indigenous economy.
So really apart from flag waving and party shouting, that's our lot.

Its not even a powerswop anymore,they are hopelessly compromised by idology....look today,they want to oversee paying 960K for apartments for social housing.....the developer led model is a failure,but still they want to persist with it



People interest should come before business,this is no longer the case here under ffg,we have millions to spend defending apple in court,

but drag those with terminal cancer through the courts and still deny liability.....an utterly,utterly rotten carryon and we have completly lost our way as a state under ffg

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

This is pretty accurate.

It was only Micheal Martin's knowledge and memory of what Sinn Fein really are and his abhorrence of that that prevented a FF/SF coalition last year. Others in FF are well capable of putting decency aside and doing business with SF.

The idea that MM is a politician of conviction will not fly in the face of the evidence.
Micheál lost interest in SF because he could not ensure he was the power in the coalition. He 'opened the door' when it looked like FF where going to take 50ish seats. It was shut quickly when it was level pegging and he turned to the weaker parties of FG and the Greens.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/martin-opens-the-door-to-coalition-with-sinn-fein-38941313.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fianna-f%C3%A1il-reaction-martin-opens-door-to-government-with-fg-or-sf-1.4167246

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The idea that MM is a politician of conviction will not fly in the face of the evidence.
Micheál lost interest in SF because he could not ensure he was the power in the coalition. He 'opened the door' when it looked like FF where going to take 50ish seats. It was shut quickly when it was level pegging and he turned to the weaker parties of FG and the Greens.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/martin-opens-the-door-to-coalition-with-sinn-fein-38941313.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fianna-f%C3%A1il-reaction-martin-opens-door-to-government-with-fg-or-sf-1.4167246

FG, FF and SF were neck and neck. The "weaker" party argument is full of holes, not even that, it is laughable.

SF have ended up as the weakest party of the three. Out of government, on the back benches, shouting and roaring as the stable numbers look for a government that could last 10 years.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

FG, FF and SF were neck and neck. The "weaker" party argument is full of holes, not even that, it is laughable.

SF have ended up as the weakest party of the three. Out of government, on the back benches, shouting and roaring as the stable numbers look for a government that could last 10 years.

FG were the weaker, vote and seat wise and had to give way on Martin's main ambition, being Taoiseach first.

He couldn't have insisted on that with Mary Lou...risking it all on never being Taoiseach if the government collapsed before it was his turn.

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

FG, FF and SF were neck and neck. The "weaker" party argument is full of holes, not even that, it is laughable.

SF have ended up as the weakest party of the three. Out of government, on the back benches, shouting and roaring as the stable numbers look for a government that could last 10 years.

And what a great pair of parties they are to run a country........

The world's most expensive hospital ever
A sharp increase in homelessness
Mother and baby homes / institutional abuse
Direct provision
Unaffordable housing
Unaffordable rents
Mismanagement of the Covid-19 pandemic
Hospital waiting lists
Mental health crisis
Bank bailouts
Cervical check scandal
Garda corruption
Zero hour contracts
Excessive pay rises to politicians

Floppybits

grayzer75 wrote: »

And what a great pair of parties they are to run a country........

The world's most expensive hospital ever
A sharp increase in homelessness
Mother and baby homes / institutional abuse
Direct provision
Unaffordable housing
Unaffordable rents
Mismanagement of the Covid-19 pandemic
Hospital waiting lists
Mental health crisis
Bank bailouts
Cervical check scandal
Garda corruption
Zero hour contracts
Excessive pay rises to politicians

And that's only what has been made public. There is a reason why whistleblowers are treated the way they are.

Floppybits

This mother and baby homes report is just not going away. The chair of the mother and babies home commission is now saying they wont come before an Oireactas committee. The government handling of this has been a disaster, what are they trying to hide or what are they so afraid of coming out?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40221251.html

Cluedo Monopoly

Floppybits wrote: »

This mother and baby homes report is just not going away. The chair of the mother and babies home commission is now saying they wont come before an Oireactas committee. The government handling of this has been a disaster, what are they trying to hide or what are they so afraid of coming out?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40221251.html

They are protecting their 'legacy'. Shameful.

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

No, not idealogically.

What might that be? Not needling you, genuinely don't see any ideological differences in practice anyway.
It's the difference between being mugged by a Carny or being robbed by Raffles the gentleman thief. Same result.

FrancieBrady

Floppybits wrote: »

This mother and baby homes report is just not going away. The chair of the mother and babies home commission is now saying they wont come before an Oireactas committee. The government handling of this has been a disaster, what are they trying to hide or what are they so afraid of coming out?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40221251.html

Pain on top of pain being heaped on these people to save the blushes of the church and the power swap over the years. Really shocking and enough on it's own for a government to be thrown out of office IMO

James Brown

I'm not a Journalism drop out, but if I were cancelling an international Rugby match I'd speak to the people organising it before I gave an announcement to the press. Now that's a year or so ago and lessons learned....oh wait. Garda representative on the radio earlier regarding the new restrictions announced which are in place where the Garda can call in to check on you, they've no guidance and Garda don't know what they are supposed to do or not do. Not sure if it's McEntee or Donnelly should be looking after that.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Pain on top of pain being heaped on these people to save the blushes of the church and the power swap over the years. Really shocking and enough on it's own for a government to be thrown out of office IMO

A survivor on the radio there got his copy of the report and can't believe the inaccuracies. And Justice Murphy who helped compile it won't attend an Oireachtas committee to answer queries. A complete sham.
Why do they always seem to knobble these reports before they begin?

Cluedo Monopoly

James Brown wrote: »

A survivor on the radio there got his copy of the report and can't believe the inaccuracies. And Justice Murphy who helped compile it won't attend an Oireachtas committee to answer queries. A complete sham.
Why do they always seem to knobble these reports before they begin?

Why did FF (Woods) do a sweet indemnity deal with the religious orders in 2002?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Pain on top of pain being heaped on these people to save the blushes of the church and the power swap over the years. Really shocking and enough on it's own for a government to be thrown out of office IMO

James Brown wrote: »

A survivor on the radio there got his copy of the report and can't believe the inaccuracies. And Justice Murphy who helped compile it won't attend an Oireachtas committee to answer queries. A complete sham.
Why do they always seem to knobble these reports before they begin?

Not sure whether it is ignorance of how governments and independent commissions work or whether it is deep malevolence trying to make politics out of people's suffering that is behind these types of posts that show a complete lack of understanding of what has happened.

Independent Commission makes report - TRUE
Some people are unhappy with report - TRUE
This means it is the government's fault - LOGICAL FALLACY

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Not sure whether it is ignorance of how governments and independent commissions work or whether it is deep malevolence trying to make politics out of people's suffering that is behind these types of posts that show a complete lack of understanding of what has happened.

Independent Commission makes report - TRUE
Some people are unhappy with report - TRUE
This means it is the government's fault - LOGICAL FALLACY

The government have a role. They have failed in their role.
So also has the Commission.

https://www.thejournal.ie/limerick-road-emaon-ryan-willie-odea-5346367-Feb2021/

Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, O’Dea said €17 million has already been spent on the project, stating that the Green Party leader’s decision to review the project is a “clear breach of the Programme for Government”.

The issue dominated this week’s Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting, where members passed a motion calling on the minister to sign off on the road to Limerick City which was originally approved in 2007.

“My beef is with this road not going ahead,” O’Dea said this morning. “It is integral in the region and opening up Limerick City,” he said.

The Limerick TD said the road is “absolutely critical” to bringing investment into the region, adding that it is committed to in the Programme for Government.

In response, Ryan said he wanted to “make sure we get it right”.

He said there are no public transport links in the area, and he is looking at introducing rail links in the region.

The government will proceed with a “section” of the road, he said, adding that the money spent already on the project won’t be wasted.

O’Dea said he had no objection to rail links being added to the programme of development, but said he “rejects any notion of part of a road” being built.

This would “result in a rat run through a residential area” in Moyross, he said.

“It would be totally undesirable,” said O’Dea, saying no one is interested in part of the road being constructed.

Pressure is now mounting on the transport minister to give the road the green light, with the Fianna Fáil Minister of State for Higher Education Niall Collins piling in and raising the matter with the Taoiseach, stating that it is an integral part of the infrastructure of Limerick.

While responsibility for the regeneration project largely lies with Limerick County Council, it is understood that Housing Minister Daragh O’Brien, and Junior Minister Peter Burke, who as a delegated function responsible for local government, were not made aware that Ryan was minded not to sign off on the road.

Ryan said Moyross would not become a “rat run”, saying “certainly not under my watch”.

The minister said he looking at the overall plan for the regeneration of Limerick, and wants the area to have the “most modern and advanced transport system” which will bring investment and jobs.

O’Dea said there are Green Party initiatives in the Programme for Government that he does not like, but is expected to support, as the document is a compromise.

He said if his Green Party colleagues expect him to support their proposals, then Fianna Fáil expects the proposals put in at the behest of them to be supported.

Cluedo Monopoly

blanch152 wrote: »

Not sure whether it is ignorance of how governments and independent commissions work or whether it is deep malevolence trying to make politics out of people's suffering that is behind these types of posts that show a complete lack of understanding of what has happened.

Independent Commission makes report - TRUE
Some people are unhappy with report - TRUE
This means it is the government's fault - LOGICAL FALLACY

Nonsense and you know it.

The way the FFGG government treated the survivors was appalling. The webinar, the leak, overall timing, database confusion, spinning that the survivors got the report in advance - all utter bullshiit but deliberate. The survivors got the government version in the webinar and then were told to download a 3000 page document. The apology was appalling and an attempted whitewash/cover-up. The government tried desperately to control the narrative and it backfired because it was wrong. Wrong. They had the report for several months and never questioned some of the idiotic conclusions before issuing an incorrect summary/apology (e.g. no physical abuse, no illegal/forced adoptions, no evidence of clergy forcing women into homes, vaccine trials had no side effects despite the shocking mortality rates)? The delays in the legislation is just more of it.

Adding insult to injury. Placing abuse on abuse. Disgusting.

Many many many TDs and other politicians have spoken about how badly this was done including FFG ones. Do you want me to send you a link to Catherine Connolly's speeches about it? Or Dr Maeve O'Rourke's feedback. Or Catherine Corless's thoughts? You never questioned anything they said. Ignore, deflect, deflect. Honestly, get a grip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYGs7N1F7-E

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Not sure whether it is ignorance of how governments and independent commissions work or whether it is deep malevolence trying to make politics out of people's suffering that is behind these types of posts that show a complete lack of understanding of what has happened.

Independent Commission makes report - TRUE
Some people are unhappy with report - TRUE
This means it is the government's fault - LOGICAL FALLACY

We are 'ignorant' because we question why the process is the way it is and complain that one of the people worked on it won't take questions?
Since when is advocating on behalf of survivors using survivors? Can you show what we or I am misunderstanding? Maybe engage in discussion rather than dismissing and throw out insults.

Is this you, a regular hounding people?

Floppybits

James Brown wrote: »

We are 'ignorant' because we question why the process is the way it is and complain that one of the people worked on it won't take questions?
Since when is advocating on behalf of survivors using survivors? Can you show what we or I am misunderstanding? Maybe engage in discussion rather than dismissing and throw out insults.

Is this you, a regular hounding people?

Yup standard operating procedure. You'd almost swear they have a investment in it.

FrancieBrady

Vicky Phelan standing head and shoulders above the Government and it's HSE.

https://twitter.com/PhelanVicky/status/1357210422282252291

blanch152

James Brown wrote: »

We are 'ignorant' because we question why the process is the way it is and complain that one of the people worked on it won't take questions?
Since when is advocating on behalf of survivors using survivors? Can you show what we or I am misunderstanding? Maybe engage in discussion rather than dismissing and throw out insults.

Is this you, a regular hounding people?

How is commenting on the content of posts equivalent to hounding people?

Cluedo Monopoly

The women of Ireland need to take over this country because the men have made a complete mess of it. As Connolly called them in the Dail twice...the Three Unwise Men

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

How is commenting on the content of posts equivalent to hounding people?

People criticise the way these things tend to have their hands tied before beginning and ask why? Or ask why Murphy won't answer questions?

You chime in with

Not sure whether it is ignorance of how governments and independent commissions work or whether it is deep malevolence trying to make politics out of people's suffering that is behind these types of posts that show a complete lack of understanding of what has happened.

You are not engaging or commenting on the discussion you are commenting on the posters intent and/or knowledge. That's hounding as you described it yesterday regarding people not being able to post without getting hounded by regulars. Who are you to tell people their questions and opinions are wrong without even having the manners to discuss the points raised? Reads to me like you are using the victims to shut down any criticism.

Cluedo Monopoly

James Brown wrote: »

You are not engaging or commenting on the discussion you are commenting on the posters intent and/or knowledge.

Reads to me like you are using the victims to shut down any criticism.

100%

blanch152

James Brown wrote: »

People criticise the way these things tend to have their hands tied before beginning and ask why? Or ask why Murphy won't answer questions?

You chime in with

You are not engaging or commenting on the discussion you are commenting on the posters intent and/or knowledge. That's hounding as you described it yesterday regarding people not being able to post without getting hounded by regulars. Who are you to tell people their questions and opinions are wrong without even having the manners to discuss the points raised? Reads to me like you are using the victims to shut down any criticism.

Read my post again, particularly this section.

blanch152 wrote: »

Independent Commission makes report - TRUE
Some people are unhappy with report - TRUE
This means it is the government's fault - LOGICAL FALLACY

Now, the question can be put to you another way, why are you posting on the FF/FG/Green government thread about an issue that is not the fault of the government or that they can do anything about as an independent report is just that, especially when there is another thread on the subject?

I can think of only two reasons why you are doing so.

(1) You are making political capital out of victims
(2) You don't understand the meaning of an independent process

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Read my post again, particularly this section.



Now, the question can be put to you another way, why are you posting on the FF/FG/Green government thread about an issue that is not the fault of the government or that they can do anything about as an independent report is just that, especially when there is another thread on the subject?

I can think of only two reasons why you are doing so.

(1) You are making political capital out of victims
(2) You don't understand the meaning of an independent process

You left out the bit were you accused us of either being ignorant or using the victims to score political points.

Because the state can set the criteria the report must meet.
Because only the state has the power to address the issues raised by the survivors.
My criticism was why set these things up to fail and why can't we have one of them, forced if needed, to speak to committee while they are still on our payroll until the end of the month?

It's quite plain to see here that you are more interested in attacking the posters than discussing any topic raised.
By using 'independent process' and the victims, you are ignoring the points raised to dismiss and accuse.

smurgen

The Irony of FGaerler talking about making political capital out of victims. The lads who called relatives for Justice headbangers in this very thread.