FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The article link is here

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2019/0503/1047282-10-ways-institutional-abuse-details-are-still-being-kept-secret/

One person’s opinion.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

One person’s opinion.

That's all any of us can give maryanne.

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

One person’s opinion.

Where is she wrong? Call out one fact or act where she is wrong?

And why are you trying to shut down this discussion?

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

One person’s opinion.

Go on then, where is she wrong?

(1) The Retention of Records Bill 2019, which Minister for Education Joe McHugh recently introduced in the Dáil, proposes to withhold from public inspection every document gathered or made by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, Residential Institutions Redress Board and Residential Institutions Redress Review Committee for no less than the next 75 years. This includes all survivor testimony and all administrative records and other evidence of the operation of Industrial and Reformatory Schools. The Bill does not provide for survivors to be given a copy of their own testimony or asked whether they wish their testimony to form part of the national historical record during their lifetime.

(2) Almost no prosecutions appear to have arisen from the investigations of the Ryan Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, as the advocacy group Reclaiming Self has highlighted. The Government’s explanation to the United Nations Committee Against Torture is that "the provisions governing the Ryan Commission’s work precluded the disclosure of the names of persons identified as perpetrators, hence this information was not available to An Garda Síochána for the purposes of initiating criminal investigations."

(3) Under the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002, it is a criminal offence for survivors to "publish any information concerning an application or an award made under this Act that refers to any other person (including an applicant), relevant person or institution by name or which could reasonably lead to the identification of any other person (including an applicant), a relevant person or an institution referred to in an application made under this Act." Not only does this legislative provision appear to prohibit survivors from writing or speaking publicly about their experiences of seeking redress, but Reclaiming Self states that some survivors have interpreted it as preventing them from reporting their abusers to the Gardaí.

(4) The ongoing Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation is refusing to provide survivors or the family members of the deceased with any of the personal information that it holds concerning them. In one letter to a survivor seeking her own records, the Commission said that its refusal was "in order to safeguard the effective operation of the Commission and the future cooperation of witnesses".

(5) The Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation is refusing to provide survivors with a transcript of their own evidence to the Commission.

(6) The Mother and Baby Homes Commission has decided to reject all survivor requests for public hearings, while the evidence that it gathers in private will be sealed for at least several decades according to its underpinning legislation and current High Court case law caselaw.

(7) According to its grounding legislation, the archive of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission will not be available for future use in civil or criminal proceedings.

(8) Regarding the Magdalene Laundries, the Department of An Taoiseach has repeatedly refused to release any of the contents of the McAleese Committee archive claiming that it is holding the archive "for safe keeping" and "not…for the purposes of the FOI Act".

(9) There is no statutory right for adopted people (whether lawfully or unlawfully separated from their family) or people who were placed in informal or illegal care arrangements as children to access their early life files. As noted by the Clann Project, this is at odds with the legal position in Northern Ireland, England and Wales, Scotland, Germany, Spain, Austria and the Netherlands, among other jurisdictions.

(10) There is no explicit statutory right of access to personal records for relatives of children or adults who died in State or institutional care, many of whom still lie in unmarked graves.

Cluedo Monopoly

At least Fianna Fail did a great deal with Rome back in 2002 with the indemnity deal. It cost the religious orders just 128 million.
It has cost the taxpayer well over 1.5 billion the last time I looked.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/indemnity-deal-with-congregations-over-redress-was-mistake-says-martin-1.4190636

The State’s decision in 2002 to indemnify 18 religious congregations that had run residential institutions for children against legal claims above €128 million was “a mistake”, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin has said.

The deal was brought to the final Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats government cabinet meeting by then minister for education Michael Woods. Despite warnings from attorney general Michael McDowell, the deal was agreed.

Under it, the religious congregations concerned were indemnified against any future legal actions taken against them by abuse survivors, in return for a €128 million contribution to redress costs.

smurgen

I have no doubt there will be a PR onslaught over the next few days by Government to quell public anger from this. I expect the party lines are being shared big time for Twitter posts and press released and there will be a revisionism as to how all of this unfolded. So it's worth keeping in mind how the playing down of these things has gone before and how a lot has been done to play it down already.

One common PR person that has tried to downplay all this before is Terry Prone, Chairman of the Communications Clinic.
Now keep in mind Terry had previously billed €55K EUR to Francis Fitzgerald of Fine Gael for P.R work,advice on speech writing and strategy while she was former justice minister.

This is Terry Prone was also worked for Bon Secures sister in light of the discovery of hundreds of bodies dumped in a septic tank on the grounds of the home. Here is a mail she sent to a journalist from abroad looking to investigate :

Terry Prone
Bon Secours

Your letter was sent on to me by the Provincial of the Irish Bon Secours congregation with instructions that I should help you. I’m not sure how I can. Let me explain.When the “O My God – mass grave in West of Ireland” broke in an English-owned paper (the Mail) it surprised the hell out of everybody, not least the Sisters of Bon Secours in Ireland, none of whom had ever worked in Tuam and most of whom had never heard of it.If you come here, you’ll find no mass grave, no evidence that children were ever so buried, and a local police force casting their eyes to heaven and saying “Yeah, a few bones were found – but this was an area where Famine victims were buried. So?”Several international TV stations have aborted their plans to make documentaries, because essentially all that can be said is “Ireland in the first half of the twentieth century was a moralistic, inward-looking, anti-feminist country of exagerrated religiousity.”Which most of us knew already.The overwhelming majority of the surviving Sisters of Bon Secours in Ireland are over eighty. The handful (literally) still in active ministry are in their seventies. None of them is an historian or sociologist or theologian and so wouldn’t have the competence to be good on your programme.
If you’d like me to point you at a few reputable historians who might be good, I’ll certainly do that.
Terry Prone (Ms)
Chairman
The Communications Clinic"

RandomViewer

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

At least Fianna Fail did a great deal with Rome back in 2002 with the indemnity deal. It cost the religious orders just 128 million.
It has cost the taxpayer well over 1.5 billion the last time I looked.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/indemnity-deal-with-congregations-over-redress-was-mistake-says-martin-1.4190636

There was a mindset and probably still is in FF /FG that the people in the homes were the church's property to do with as they pleased. I have heard people of a certain age trying to justify what happened, it's fxxking scary how otherwise rational people were willing to overlook some truly grotesque crimes.

James Brown

RandomViewer wrote: »

There was a mindset and probably still is in FF /FG that the people in the homes were the church's property to do with as they pleased. I have heard people of a certain age trying to justify what happened, it's fxxking scary how otherwise rational people were willing to overlook some truly grotesque crimes.

The shaming has been replaced by spin and ridicule. It's disgusting.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Soooo... You’re talking nonsense. Ok. Thought as much.

What is actually sealed is the evidence given by people who were guaranteed anonymity.

You do know that even the Minister has said he doesn't know and hasn't seen the archive.


But you seem to know what it contains?

You have been left to defend the government here Maryanne, a valiant effort indeed but you are floundering on this tack.

smurgen

RandomViewer wrote: »

There was a mindset and probably still is in FF /FG that the people in the homes were the church's property to do with as they pleased. I have heard people of a certain age trying to justify what happened, it's fxxking scary how otherwise rational people were willing to overlook some truly grotesque crimes.

They'd have you believe this is ancient history too. I know the Bessborough child and mother home in Cork only closed in 1998. There's 800 children's remains unaccounted for there.

smurgen

Deleted User wrote: »

What, exactly, has been covered up?

Have a listen if you're still unsure.

https://twitter.com/RazanIbra_/status/1320026108528558080?s=19

Brendan Bendar

smurgen wrote: »

Have a listen if you're still unsure.

https://twitter.com/RazanIbra_/status/1320026108528558080?s=19

You need to get off Twitter,pal.

smurgen

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

You need to get off Twitter,pal.

No comment on the video in the post?

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You do know that even the Minister has said he doesn't know and hasn't seen the archive.


But you seem to know what it contains?

You have been left to defend the government here Maryanne, a valiant effort indeed but you are floundering on this tack.

So, what’s all the fuss about? Something hidden away, but no one knows what?

Cluedo Monopoly

smurgen wrote: »

No comment on the video in the post?

They don't reply. They only try and deflect. When they get exposed, they hide for a while and then try another deflect.

They most certainly will not watch or read anything that alters their worldview no matter how myopic that might be.

For example, Maryanne will not reply to Post 1295 above because she isn't able to counter it. She dismissed it as an opinion

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

So, what’s all the fuss about? Something hidden away, but no one knows what?

Well if you read what some of those affected have to say you might find out. There's a huge ongoing conversation out there.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

So, what’s all the fuss about? Something hidden away, but no one knows what?

Have you no interest in discussing it, answering questions put to you?
All you've done over the last week or so is dismiss it and ask questions on the information not released.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well if you read what some of those affected have to say you might find out. There's a huge ongoing conversation out there.

It's a part of the broader issue of the FF/FG led state aiding and abetting in the mistreatment and rape of children and selling off of babies. All the while treating the victims like criminals not to be believed.

Nobotty

I don’t think there's any need to go OTT here now
What went on in the 20s up to the 90s is not something you can judge by todays standards
If Sinn Féin were the government here in the 1940s,they'd have gone along with it aswell
No politician today condones it
The government handled a matter yet again insensitively
It was a societal problem in the past aided and abetted by the heretics who had control of the Catholic Church and by extension control of political parties here too


What I'm reading here now in this thread is going well beyond over egging of the pudding,gilding the lilly
This government were stupid
Maybe they auto piloted this legislation
But they're still stupid
Not thinking they should have consulted victims prior to legislating and explaining is agregioussly stupid of them

One thing they're not though, is responsible for what went on in the mother and baby homes
Suggesting they are or that they are covering up for it is also stupid IMO

RandomViewer

Bowie wrote: »

It's a part of the broader issue of the FF/FG led state aiding and abetting in the mistreatment and rape of children and selling off of babies. All the while treating the victims like criminals not to be believed.

Good chance that some party members bought (adopted ) children from the homes, there was a stigma attached to adopted children back then and a FF/FGer wouldn't want anyone to think they were impotent

Bishop of hope

RandomViewer wrote: »

Good chance that some party members bought (adopted ) children from the homes, there was a stigma attached to adopted children back then and a FF/FGer wouldn't want anyone to think they were impotent

Jesus. :D

Nobotty

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Jesus. :D

Exactly!
Debate was reasonable earlier
Now its descended into nonsense more at home with the 'national party' anti maskers and Gemma
It wouldn't win votes
The tit for tat default bubble where any old rubbish is posted

James Brown

Nobotty wrote: »

I don’t think there's any need to go OTT here now
What went on in the 20s up to the 90s is not something you can judge by todays standards
If Sinn Féin were the government here in the 1940s,they'd have gone along with it aswell
No politician today condones it
The government handled a matter yet again insensitively
It was a societal problem in the past aided and abetted by the heretics who had control of the Catholic Church and by extension control of political parties here too


What I'm reading here now in this thread is going well beyond over egging of the pudding,gilding the lilly
This government were stupid
Maybe they auto piloted this legislation
But they're still stupid
Not thinking they should have consulted victims prior to legislating and explaining is agregioussly stupid of them

One thing they're not though, is responsible for what went on in the mother and baby homes
Suggesting they are or that they are covering up for it is also stupid IMO

You are playing the role of apologist here or in the best light falling under the very much mistaken assumption that it's about party lines.
Maybe SF would, so what? We'd be talking about them in a similar manner, but it's FF/FG in reality.

I don't believe they were stupid. I believe it was well thought out and worked as expected, just they weren't planning on so much kick back. Either way they don't have to air their dirty laundry so mission accomplished.

Bishop of hope

Bowie wrote: »

You are playing the role of apologist here or in the best light falling under the very much mistaken assumption that it's about party lines.
Maybe SF would, so what? We'd be talking about them in a similar manner, but it's FF/FG in reality.

I don't believe they were stupid. I believe it was well thought out and worked as expected, just they weren't planning on so much kick back. Either way they don't have to air their dirty laundry so mission accomplished.

All any of us can be is apologists at best and unless you can drag out a TD from some of the party's that you know was involved in the mother and baby home scandals all you're doing is flying kites.

Nobotty

Bowie wrote: »

You are playing the role of apologist here or in the best light falling under the very much mistaken assumption that it's about party lines.
Maybe SF would, so what? We'd be talking about them in a similar manner, but it's FF/FG in reality.

I don't believe they were stupid. I believe it was well thought out and worked as expected, just they weren't planning on so much kick back. Either way they don't have to air their dirty laundry so mission accomplished.

Would you listen to what you are saying
Basically you are saying on an Internet forum because you can that T.D's in this Dáil condone child abuse and mother and baby home abuse and are determined to cover it up and have planned this
Noone other than a tiny minority believes that
You can post all you like here that opinion but in the outside world, people don't believe it and indeed SF will rightly attack the monumental mis handling of the bill but they won't be going on with what you're saying
Youre only playing into FG's hands with that line

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

All any of us can be is apologists at best and unless you can drag out a TD from some of the party's that you know was involved in the mother and baby home scandals all you're doing is flying kites.

We know the state was and is involved at every level.

Bishop of hope

Nobotty wrote: »

Would you listen to what you are saying
Basically you are saying on an Internet forum because you can that T.D's in this Dáil condone child abuse and mother and baby home abuse and are determined to cover it up and have planned this
Noone other than a tiny minority believes that
You can post all you like here that opinion but in the outside world, people don't believe it and indeed SF will rightly attack the monumental mis handling of the bill but they won't be going on with what you're saying
Youre only playing into FG's hands with that line

He fails to recognise that.
Who set up the commission in the first place?
For all it's hopeful good work and it's findings which should be damming on church and state, I hope this typecof attitude doesn't try to take away from those findings.
The church and state has much to answer for on this issue.

Nobotty

Bowie wrote: »

We know the state was and is involved at every level.

The state apologised
The current arms of the state DO NOT condone that abuse at ANY level
Cop on

Bishop of hope

Bowie wrote: »

We know the state was and is involved at every level.

We know it was yes.
Was it complicit is another story though.
Definitely it failed in its protection of human beings involved, but did it know what was going on in there, I'm not sure.
Society in General at the time failed themselves also. The church had too much power.

James Brown

Nobotty wrote: »

Would you listen to what you are saying
Basically you are saying on an Internet forum because you can that T.D's in this Dáil condone child abuse and mother and baby home abuse and are determined to cover it up and have planned this
Noone other than a tiny minority believes that
You can post all you like here that opinion but in the outside world, people don't believe it and indeed SF will rightly attack the monumental mis handling of the bill but they won't be going on with what you're saying
Youre only playing into FG's hands with that line

Now who's guiding the Lilly? Ive said no such thing.
They are protecting the reputation of their parties in covering up. Thats my opinion of it.
Not incompetent but covering their arses. They succeeded in sweeping it under the carpet. Time will tell how well and for how long.
Get off your SF kick will you? You are engaging in the very style of 'debate' you claim to dislike.