FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

StackSteevens

blanch152 wrote: »

All of those extensions were at the request of the Commission as the body who can request it.

Unless you know something I don't, the Commission hasn't sought an extension.

Emmmmm ........ maybe that should be the Government?

James Brown

A. Opposition TDs said that legislation passed through the Oireachtas this week by Minister for Children Roderic O’Gorman was a wasted opportunity to prevent records amassed by the commission from being sealed for 30 years.

A. Everything is going to the Minister, and then into the archives and, as matters stand, will be subject to the 30-year rule.

Some witnesses want access to the transcripts of their testimonies. Some lawyers say they have data access rights to the documents. But other legal considerations, not least the rights of others to their good name, may also apply.

There are no absolutes, nor should there be, outside of those who wish to remain anonymous remaining so. That is very easily done.

Mr O'Gorman said he will now consult with the Attorney General to see "what avenues there are there to address the 30 year issue, particularly with regard to personal information."

He said he will also work with the Oireachtas Children's Committee on the issue adding that he is "committed to addressing" the concerns around the 30 year rule.

So a lot to be discussed.

This reasoning below makes no sense considering the public interest not forgetting those concerns and requests from victims.

The Minister admitted that the legislation had been "rushed" so it would be in place before the winding up of the Commission at the end of this month.

He said he didn't want to extend the time of the Commission as this would in turn have delayed the final report into Mother and Baby homes.

"I didn't want to ask survivors to wait more, because I understand how eager they are to see the results of the Commission's investigation from the last five years.

Mr O'Gorman's decision not to accept opposition amendments drew particular scorn with Holly Cairns, the Cork South West Social Democrats TD describing the action as "sickening".

Opposition TDs had hoped to allow survivors of the system decide whether their names and testimony should be disclosed but their amendments were refused.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40069763.html

This is what we are discussing. No need to throw insults or divert.
It's been used before this idea that the state's hands are tied. They don't have to be.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

This is what we are discussing. No need to throw insults or divert.
.

I find I have to agree with you there, Holly Cairns going over the top in describing the action as sickening was an unwarranted insult, and diverting from the issues at stake. It was par for the course for the opposition to throw insults and divert from the real issue though.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I find I have to agree with you there, Holly Cairns going over the top in describing the action as sickening was an unwarranted insult, and diverting from the issues at stake. It was par for the course for the opposition to throw insults and divert from the real issue though.

That was aimed at folk looking to divert and insult rather than discuss the topic. People on this thread.
You are not agreeing with me you are making up your own reading of my comment and going off as per. Also as you ignored the body of my post should I now assume you've no real interest?

Can you elaborate on that? What's 'the real issue' and who is diverting from it?

Can you tell me what you based this on?

blanch152 wrote: »

Not surprised to see that poster going after O'Gorman.

With quotes please.

Floppybits

Bowie wrote: »

That was aimed at folk looking to divert and insult rather than discuss the topic. People on this thread.
You are not agreeing with me you are making up your own reading of my comment and going off as per. Also as you ignored the body of my post should I now assume you've no real interest?

Can you elaborate on that? What's 'the real issue' and who is diverting from it?

Can you tell me what you based this on?



With quotes please.

radio silence.

James Brown

Floppybits wrote: »

radio silence.

It's not on. People come on to try discuss something and are told they are only pretending to hold an opinion to try attack FF/FG, insulted and attacked with baseless claims and lies that are never backed up.
And the same people wonder why some of us think FF/FG are covering their arses?

Cluedo Monopoly

Bowie wrote: »

It's not on. People come on to try discuss something and are told they are only pretending to hold an opinion to try attack FF/FG, insulted and attacked with baseless claims and lies that are never backed up.
And the same people wonder why some of us think FF/FG are covering their arses?

You get used to it. They are watching but choose to disengage when the argument can't be won. Happens a lot.

James Brown

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

You get used to it. They are watching but choose to disengage when the argument can't be won. Happens a lot.

I'd welcome an argument over the insults and lies.

Bishop of hope

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

You get used to it. They are watching but choose to disengage when the argument can't be won. Happens a lot.

Lots of things to be considered, naming of individuals voluntary or not can implicate others who haven't been given the option of defence or rebuttal too.
That there was even ever need for the mother and baby homes is an indictment of the attitudes at the time.
Mothers and fathers and siblings are all implicated in the intracies of all the stories as well as church and state.
Witch hunts of innocent survivors of the staff of some these homes would have to be considered too.
It's easy to look at any story from a totally one sided view too.
Thers no denial of the injustices suffered, but many went through these homes voluntarily too and happy with their outcome.
Sad times were had here indeed, and that any of that in any form, voluntarily or otherwise was necessary is an indictment of the times.
Like same sex liaisons, marriage breakups, not being allowed to divorce and no contraception and until recently no abortion which cost many lives too.
We were a great little nation of self righteous hypocrites.
Now we have a movement trying to blame FG and FF for all that and they were in that way complicit in that they were societal, but it was societal and church driven really.

FrancieBrady

This Government's Black and Tan moment...embarrassed for them that it came so quick.
Government of chaos and confusion continues.

https://twitter.com/McConnellDaniel/status/1321521487896076290

Nobotty

Bowie wrote: »

It's not on. People come on to try discuss something and are told they are only pretending to hold an opinion to try attack FF/FG, insulted and attacked with baseless claims and lies that are never backed up.
And the same people wonder why some of us think FF/FG are covering their arses?

Honestly do you expect or are you wanting a discussion with Blanch and others here?
You've been here a long time and should know better
Have you ever got that,what makes you think things will change?
Its basically opposing blogs people write here,not discussions

smurgen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This Government's Black and Tan moment...embarrassed for them that it came so quick.
Government of chaos and confusion continues.

https://twitter.com/McConnellDaniel/status/1321521487896076290

Just remember there's probably been victims quietly suffering at home wondering if they'd ever find out the truth in the meantime.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

That was aimed at folk looking to divert and insult rather than discuss the topic. People on this thread.
You are not agreeing with me you are making up your own reading of my comment and going off as per. Also as you ignored the body of my post should I now assume you've no real interest?

Can you elaborate on that? What's 'the real issue' and who is diverting from it?

Can you tell me what you based this on?



With quotes please.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the topic, silly me.

Should have known you weren't. Ah well.

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Lots of things to be considered, naming of individuals voluntary or not can implicate others who haven't been given the option of defence or rebuttal too.
That there was even ever need for the mother and baby homes is an indictment of the attitudes at the time.
Mothers and fathers and siblings are all implicated in the intracies of all the stories as well as church and state.
Witch hunts of innocent survivors of the staff of some these homes would have to be considered too.
It's easy to look at any story from a totally one sided view too.
Thers no denial of the injustices suffered, but many went through these homes voluntarily too and happy with their outcome.
Sad times were had here indeed, and that any of that in any form, voluntarily or otherwise was necessary is an indictment of the times.
Like same sex liaisons, marriage breakups, not being allowed to divorce and no contraception and until recently no abortion which cost many lives too.
We were a great little nation of self righteous hypocrites.
Now we have a movement trying to blame FG and FF for all that and they were in that way complicit in that they were societal, but it was societal and church driven really.

No we don't.
Only regarding allowing and making official the taking and selling of babies without the mothers consent, abuse and currently not giving individuals their data. But you know this. Its been explained to you.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RTEBrainstorm/status/1234405958773854209

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the topic, silly me.

Should have known you weren't. Ah well.

So no comment or intetest.

How about backing up your O'Gorman comment? Ive asked a number of times.

James Brown

Nobotty wrote: »

Honestly do you expect or are you wanting a discussion with Blanch and others here?
You've been here a long time and should know better
Have you ever got that,what makes you think things will change?
Its basically opposing blogs people write here,not discussions

Not so. Insulting people and telling lies off topic is not what you describe. Its not opposing any debate point.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't see many honest posters opposing what the government did. Any honest poster that looked long and hard at the issues would conclude the government had little choice. Plenty of dishonest posters and commentators using the victims of the homes to have a go at the government, but par for the course for most of them.

People have a right to their data under the law, it is not unconditional, it is not 100% available. For example, information gathered during a Garda investigation is not available to people unless it goes to court.

As you well know, there was a deadline of 30 October, by which time the information would be destroyed by the Commission if there was no legislation, hence the need to get the legislation through without amendment etc.

What the government underestimated was the willingness of the dishonest to exploit the issue.

Boy does this post look stupid now.

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

Boy does this post look stupid now.

You're a big ejit to even ask questions....until FF/FG drop the ball again.
Senior Hurling.

smurgen

Bowie wrote: »

You're a big ejit to even ask questions....until FF/FG drop the ball again.
Senior Hurling.

Some of the lads aren't match fit. Should consider junior b.

Cluedo Monopoly

I cannot remember a government ever apologising as much and this one and it is only a few months old.

To be fair though they eventually own their mistakes, after considerable public pressure.

The Greens are the big losers here though. They must feel used.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/1027/1174280-cabinet-meeting/

Social Democrats TD Holly Cairns said: "Thankfully, after two weeks of public pressure the Government have responded to two of key requests from survivors and activists with the Minister retaining a copy of the archive and allowing access to personal information.

"This is the first step, a lot more is needed to provide justice to survivors."

smurgen

Victim of former FF politician and paedophile Bill Kennelly found out in a paper yesterday that data relating to his case went missing on a USB back in 2018 when it was in transit between two departments in the DOJ. Seems like they're not so concerned about data at times.


https://twitter.com/ColinPower71/status/1321472316673527823?s=19

FrancieBrady

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I cannot remember a government ever apologising as much and this one is only a few months old.

To be fair though they eventually own their mistakes, after considerable public pressure.

They'll be putting it about that the Attorney General is in the 'RA tomorrow.

Government of Chaos and Confusion.

Cluedo Monopoly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They'll be putting it about that the Attorney General is in the 'RA tomorrow.

Government of Chaos and Confusion.

Government of Chaos, Confusion and Apologies.

The Attorney General looks a bit stupid too.

McMurphy

smurgen wrote: »

Boy does this post look stupid now.

The man himself said it less than 24hrs ago, you couldn't write it, you honestly couldn't.:D

blanch152 wrote: »

Stupid is as stupid does, as Forrest Gump would say.

Several posters on this thread are proving that is correct.

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

The man himself said it less than 24hrs ago, you couldn't write it, you honestly couldn't.:D

Is it quicker than the Black and Tan U-Turn? Didn't think it could be bettered.

See O'Gorman getting roasted again for comments on GDPR.

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1321550806408200194

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is it quicker than the Black and Tan U-Turn? Didn't think it could be bettered.

See O'Gorman getting roasted again for comments on GDPR.

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1321550806408200194

I don't think there'll be much between them Francie.

https://twitter.com/bourgeoismelt/status/1321567107025457159?s=19

James Brown

If there were are genuine posters with an alternate take they don't seem to be in this thread. No shame in being mistaken, unless you've been telling lies, speaking in absolutes and insulting people because they disagreed with you.

Bishop of hope

Bowie wrote: »

If there were are genuine posters with an alternate take they don't seem to be in this thread. No shame in being mistaken, unless you've been telling lies, speaking in absolutes and insulting people because they disagreed with you.

There was legislation enacted, the opposition gave out about it, started a large campaign against it, that it wasn't robust enough to give people their rights, they wanted it amended to suit them.
So obviously like the Minister they believed there was a serious issue here too.
Now I don't know if the current position of people having rights to their files would still be the same without the legislation just passed or not, but apparently everybody including the opposition believed they wouldn't.
Probably now that the files are saved by whatever means, let it be legislative act or not, everyone is still entitled to view their own files as the Minister can retain copies, so good result in the end either way.

Floppybits

It is a pity about the journey it took to get there and the behaviour of the government up to this point.

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

There was legislation enacted, the opposition gave out about it, started a large campaign against it, that it wasn't robust enough to give people their rights, they wanted it amended to suit them.
So obviously like the Minister they believed there was a serious issue here too.
Now I don't know if the current position of people having rights to their files would still be the same without the legislation just passed or not, but apparently everybody including the opposition believed they wouldn't.
Probably now that the files are saved by whatever means, let it be legislative act or not, everyone is still entitled to view their own files as the Minister can retain copies, so good result in the end either way.

Did you see this?

https://twitter.com/RTEBrainstorm/status/1234405958773854209?s=09

We need cut the bull and face our past. I know its tough but it needs to be addressed.