FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Cluedo Monopoly

Yurt! wrote: »

That effing project is a rolling disaster. A public procurement expert from DCU around 2018 said it's likely going to be one of the most expensive buildings ever built and the most expensive hospital ever (in the world btw).

Utterly unbelievable.

Embarrassing. A state that continues to fail our women and children.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

No government has covid under their control? C'mon blanch get a map out and fire up the Ask Jeeves search bar. Ridiculous.

As for the rest of the post. One can only guffaw at it, silly stuff.

a staggering paucity of response to the post that was made tbh

agree with you on the children's hospital btw. im not sure myself to what level of govt responsibility can be feasibly traced but the direct decision makers on placement and tender should see serious consequences

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

a staggering paucity of response to the post that was made tbh

agree with you on the children's hospital btw. im not sure myself to what level of govt responsibility can be feasibly traced but the direct decision makers on placement and tender should see serious consequences

His response actually made the point in my post. No actual policy response, attack the messenger, divert into something completely different.

Oh, and in making Leo or FG responsible for every single action by every single public servant.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, and in making Leo or FG responsible for every single action by every single public servant.

theres a nub in there that is a real issue

the population's understanding of where execution/decision making occurs and the very poor comprehension out there of what lies with public servants/independent bodies/govt/factors outside of any of the previous

it comes up all the time and its an impossible fight to win because the information overhead on ignorance is miniscule, whereas facts and experience cannot move their feet so quickly

it, more than anything else, is what leaves me looking like a govt supporter in these threads when more often than not im just irritated by the attack frenzy that swipes at any action taken at all at any level of the entire public infrastructure of the state, and the alternatives i see pushed instead have holes, errors or simple general unworkabilities that would either get sent back with a short note from any working group or legal/policy steering board or god forbid actually get put into place and give five years of headaches or chaos

fg are fair targets, why wouldnt they be. but youd think uh how shall i put it

youd think some parties in particular would know when to use a sniper instead of a shotgun nest pas

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

theres a nub in there that is a real issue

the population's understanding of where execution/decision making occurs and the very poor comprehension out there of what lies with public servants/independent bodies/govt/factors outside of any of the previous

it comes up all the time and its an impossible fight to win because the information overhead on ignorance is miniscule, whereas facts and experience cannot move their feet so quickly

it, more than anything else, is what leaves me looking like a govt supporter in these threads when more often than not im just irritated by the attack frenzy that swipes at any action taken at all at any level of the entire public infrastructure of the state, and the alternatives i see pushed instead have holes, errors or simple general unworkabilities that would either get sent back with a short note from any working group or legal/policy steering board or god forbid actually get put into place and give five years of headaches or chaos

fg are fair targets, why wouldnt they be. but youd think uh how shall i put it

youd think some parties in particular would know when to use a sniper instead of a shotgun nest pas

I would agree with nearly everything you say.

I would happily engage (and I have done in the past) in a constructive discussion about the flaws in the government's income taxation and social welfare policies, or why I vote Green because of the failure to seriously tackle climate change etc. However, the discussion on here is characterised by the attack mode you describe with no filter, no alternative. At a time when we have one of the best outcomes on Covid in Europe, you still get stupid comments like "they are not so good. I think that's fair comment", the comment is just wrong and it isn't fair.

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, I forgot about North Korea and Turkmenistan, they have no cases and Covid-19 fully under control. Are they the examples that you believe we should follow?

Not surprised you guffaw, a Trumpian reaction to any discussion about policy and decency.

Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, New Zealand. All economies that are open and life continues more or less as normal with negligible cases.

Yes, guffaw.

Blanch, you are Trump.

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

I would agree with nearly everything you say.

I would happily engage (and I have done in the past) in a constructive discussion about the flaws in the government's income taxation and social welfare policies, or why I vote Green because of the failure to seriously tackle climate change etc. However, the discussion on here is characterised by the attack mode you describe with no filter, no alternative. At a time when we have one of the best outcomes on Covid in Europe, you still get stupid comments like "they are not so good. I think that's fair comment", the comment is just wrong and it isn't fair.

Comical

Solutionking

Yurt! wrote: »

Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, New Zealand. All economies that are open and life continues more or less as normal with negligible cases.

Yes, guffaw.

Blanch, you are Trump.

Are you actually serious?

Solutionking

The childrens hospital has always confused me. Leo was big part of decision and the perfect site was in his own area in Blacnhardstown. It had access to M50 easy, airport, loads of space for parking etc. I know some of the consultants didn't want to move to the North side as it was a longer drive but really it was a baffling decision. Every person in Ireland knew it would turn into a money pit before a builder got onsite and no surprise that is exactly what it has turned into.

blanch152

Solutionking wrote: »

The childrens hospital has always confused me. Leo was big part of decision and the perfect site was in his own area in Blacnhardstown. It had access to M50 easy, airport, loads of space for parking etc. I know some of the consultants didn't want to move to the North side as it was a longer drive but really it was a baffling decision. Every person in Ireland knew it would turn into a money pit before a builder got onsite and no surprise that is exactly what it has turned into.

Talking to FGers on the ground in Dublin 15, they tell me that he didn't want to appear like he was grabbing it for his own constituency........but they would say that now.

James Brown

Solutionking wrote: »

That's a good one. I am not sure if you are just taking the pi** or you actually believe what you are putting up on this forum but that was the best yet :P

You just gave a great example. I've seen worse but the tone is on song.

blanch152

Yurt! wrote: »

Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, New Zealand. All economies that are open and life continues more or less as normal with negligible cases.

Yes, guffaw.

Blanch, you are Trump.

New Zealand - draconian restrictions on travel, closing borders, we can't do that for fear of upsetting the nationalists in the north, the few visitors allowed into the country are effectively imprisoned for a fortnight.

Taiwan - see above

China - a regimented Asian society with a government that uses technology to track the movements of its citizens and utilises its police force to intimidate people into not leaving their houses. Imagine a security perimeter around every apartment block and housing estate in Ireland patrolled 24/7 and you get an idea of what was required in China to kill the spread.

South Korea - Its citizens voluntarily did what the Chinese were forced to do for cultural reasons that are alien to the Irish.

Japan - a mix of the Taiwanese and South Korean approaches

Vietnam and Thailand - They are in the category of North Korea and Turkmenistan where nobody believes their figures.

Finally, what exists as normal life in those countries would be unacceptable to the Irish public.

When snoopsheep talks about "the attack frenzy that swipes at any action taken at all at any level of the entire public infrastructure of the state, and the alternatives i see pushed instead have holes, errors or simple general unworkabilities that would either get sent back with a short note from any working group or legal/policy steering board or god forbid actually get put into place and give five years of headaches or chaos", your post is the exact kind of post they had in mind.

You put up spurious examples as ideas that are completely unworkable, bizarre, unimplementable and would be completely rejected by the Irish public. Yet you will claim to be engaged in honest debate. There is nothing honest about the post.

Solutionking wrote: »

Are you actually serious?

From previous posts, I would assume that the poster was being serious.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I could accurately sum up your post as being that you see the role of opposition to oppose for the sake of opposing, and when there is nothing to oppose, to distract by talking about tone and personally attacking personalities on the other side. You couldn't have summed up Trumpism more accurately.

The role of opposition in a democracy is to provide an alternative, a different option, a mirror to policy to show how things can be done better. The inability of Sinn Fein and the other opposition parties to do so is clear.

There is no coherent policy platform from Sinn Fein or the opposition parties, there isn't an alternative to the Programme for Government. In fact, when asked about it, they complain about FF/FG/Greens stealing their ideas. I that's a lie, it is an admittance to a failure to think of different alternatives. If it is true, it means they need to think of alternatives as what is the point of voting for Sinn Fein, if FF/FG/Greens will implement the best of their policies? The really sad things is that there are alternatives to the FF/FG/Green policies that would be better. Increasing LPT to fund housing initiatives is one idea, replacement of income tax with USC is another, reform of PRSI to make everyone pay something and the self-employed pay more for the same benefits etc. All of that would free money for improvement of services. On services, address the long teacher holidays, the grip the INMO have on staffing levels in the health service, bring childcare standards in line with the rest of Europe to reduce costs (e.g. less staff per child etc.) and sort out the compensation culture by reducing insurance payouts and criminalise false claims.

Instead the opposition look for heads for silly reasons. Throwing out baseless corruption allegations is a tired trope in need of an update.

As for your comments on Covid, someone should drop you into the middle of Derry or the American midwest without masks or sanitiser and see how you feel then about the job our government is doing. You would be fearful for your health then. No government has Covid under control - even the Australians with all their restrictions have another situation out of control today - but our government is doing better than most, and that is something as a patriotic Irishman, you should be proud of. Unfortunately, most people who style themselves as patriotic Irishmen just think its about shouting "Up the Ra" after an election, drunkenly singing rebel songs, having a laugh at unionists and voting Sinn Fein. All they do is perpetuate the myth of the drunken uncouth Irishman.

Gas. You engage in the very thing you falsely accuse others of.

The comment was on FG hiding from questions on what FG says and does by speaking on SF. You gave a great example.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

You just gave a great example. I've seen worse but the tone is on song.

Given the childish nature of some of the ideas put forward on these pages in opposition to the government, I can see why some frustrated posters might revert to childish language in response.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, I forgot about North Korea and Turkmenistan, they have no cases and Covid-19 fully under control. Are they the examples that you believe we should follow?

Not surprised you guffaw, a Trumpian reaction to any discussion about policy and decency.

Only list the '**** hole countries' Blanch?
Heard of New Zealand, Australia, South Korea?

Your Trumpisms pointed out to you now you accuse everyone of same to deflect :rolleyes:

James Brown

Yurt! wrote: »

That effing project is a rolling disaster. A public procurement expert from DCU around 2018 said it's likely going to be one of the most expensive buildings ever built and the most expensive hospital ever (in the world btw).

Utterly unbelievable.

I want to know what Dessie Ellis has to say for himself!

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

New Zealand - draconian restrictions on travel, closing borders, we can't do that for fear of upsetting the nationalists in the north, the few visitors allowed into the country are effectively imprisoned for a fortnight.

Taiwan - see above

China - a regimented Asian society with a government that uses technology to track the movements of its citizens and utilises its police force to intimidate people into not leaving their houses. Imagine a security perimeter around every apartment block and housing estate in Ireland patrolled 24/7 and you get an idea of what was required in China to kill the spread.

South Korea - Its citizens voluntarily did what the Chinese were forced to do for cultural reasons that are alien to the Irish.

Japan - a mix of the Taiwanese and South Korean approaches

Vietnam and Thailand - They are in the category of North Korea and Turkmenistan where nobody believes their figures.

Finally, what exists as normal life in those countries would be unacceptable to the Irish public.

When snoopsheep talks about "the attack frenzy that swipes at any action taken at all at any level of the entire public infrastructure of the state, and the alternatives i see pushed instead have holes, errors or simple general unworkabilities that would either get sent back with a short note from any working group or legal/policy steering board or god forbid actually get put into place and give five years of headaches or chaos", your post is the exact kind of post they had in mind.

You put up spurious examples as ideas that are completely unworkable, bizarre, unimplementable and would be completely rejected by the Irish public. Yet you will claim to be engaged in honest debate. There is nothing honest about the post.




From previous posts, I would assume that the poster was being serious.

Guff. You said there was no government handling it, and you were presented with a list of countries doing just that. Then you wheel out ignorant nonsense about mysterious orientals with their alien practices.

They are successful because the governments were decisive and organised.

Guff of the highest order.

I could blow further holes in your post because I've spent a long time in the region (including periods this year for work and I've got through entry and exit procedures as well as testing systems) and have a lot of friends in the region I speak to on the regular.

Turkmenistan my eye, you're not a serious poster.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

His response actually made the point in my post. No actual policy response, attack the messenger, divert into something completely different.

Oh, and in making Leo or FG responsible for every single action by every single public servant.

Seriously, how do you keep a straight face?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

New Zealand - draconian restrictions on travel, closing borders, we can't do that for fear of upsetting the nationalists in the north, the few visitors allowed into the country are effectively imprisoned for a fortnight.

I don't think anyone would have to read past the above. Just unbelievable

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Gas. You engage in the very thing you falsely accuse others of.

The comment was on FG hiding from questions on what FG says and does by speaking on SF. You gave a great example.

It is getting quite bizarre when you don't seem to recall your own posts. Your comment was on the quality of opposition. I set out in my post the reasons why I believe the opposition are a joke and their representatives on here provide little content to improve that reputation.

Bowie wrote: »

Quality of opposition. Opposition are not expected to cheer on government. Generally if government are doing well they'll talk about something else or nothing. When government are seen to do wrong they speak out. Generalising here.
SF/Lab/SD etc called out FF/FG/Greens on allowing LV go unchecked for leaking a confidential document to a pal. They also raised the Woulfe appointment with FF/Green not notified about three other applicants.
That's all they can do if FF/FG/Green decide to shrug these things off.
In the least the public are aware and can make up their own minds.

No party or government is perfect but when blatant issues arise they need be called out. 'It's worse elsewhere' means **** all quite frankly as regards tackling problems or issues. And at this stage it's a well worn FG tack running out of steam.

What's the alternative to crony behaviour? Stopping it? Do you think FF/FG will stop unless cornered into doing so? Should SD/SF/Lab/PBP suggest FF/FG stop behaving all crony, do you think FF/FG will listen?

On covid, initially I thought FF/FG/Green were doing pretty well but from leaving covid cluster meat packing untouched to LV rambling on about November being too early to book flights while he watched reeling in the years, they are not so good. I think that's fair comment.

On the one hand you're asking opposition to provide alternatives while on the other giving it the 'it's worse elsewhere'.
If I want FG to answer questions I don't want the answer to be 'SF something something' and I don't think I'm alone in that. I think that's fair.

You are being asked to provide clear alternatives, so when you say the performance on Covid is not so good, who are you comparing it to?

Johnson? Trump? The sh!tshow in the North? France?

Or some fantastical nirvana of milk and honey? Without some concrete evidence, that's what it looks like. We all know that you are going to say "FG are BAD, yada, yada, yada...........Leo something" but what we are interested in is the detail that leads you to that conclusion and the detail of the alternative actions. You provide nothing on that score. That applies whether it is Covid or judicial appointments or budgetary decisions.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Given the childish nature of some of the ideas put forward on these pages in opposition to the government, I can see why some frustrated posters might revert to childish language in response.

More of the same
Well you didn't disagree, which is progress I suppose.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

It is getting quite bizarre when you don't seem to recall your own posts. Your comment was on the quality of opposition. I set out in my post the reasons why I believe the opposition are a joke and their representatives on here provide little content to improve that reputation.



You are being asked to provide clear alternatives, so when you say the performance on Covid is not so good, who are you comparing it to?

Johnson? Trump? The sh!tshow in the North? France?

Or some fantastical nirvana of milk and honey? Without some concrete evidence, that's what it looks like. We all know that you are going to say "FG are BAD, yada, yada, yada...........Leo something" but what we are interested in is the detail that leads you to that conclusion and the detail of the alternative actions. You provide nothing on that score. That applies whether it is Covid or judicial appointments or budgetary decisions.

Not so.
I'm the one made comment on FG dodging questions and responsibility by speaking on SF. I don't care what FG think of SF when we want FG to answer questions or take action on what FG says and does.
Going from that to ask me to give alternative policy on behalf of the opposition is what's bizarre.

blanch152

Yurt! wrote: »

Guff. You said there was no government handling it, and you were presented with a list of countries doing just that. Then you wheel out ignorant nonsense about mysterious orientals with their alien practices.

They are successful because the governments were decisive and organised.

Guff of the highest order.

I could blow further holes in your post because I've spent a long time in the region (including periods this year for work and I've got through entry and exit procedures as well as testing systems) and have a lot of friends in the region I speak to on the regular.

Turkmenistan my eye, you're not a serious poster.

Sorry, but I am not going to accept your anecdotal trivial experiences ahead of the experts.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/china-s-aggressive-measures-have-slowed-coronavirus-they-may-not-work-other-countries

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30800-8/fulltext

Just look at this for one example:

"Dozens of cities implemented family outdoor restrictions, which typically meant that only one member of each household was permitted to leave the home every couple of days to collect necessary supplies."

Are you seriously proposing that for Ireland, it would be Level 10 compared to our current Level 5?

This is exactly what posters like snoopsheep and I talk about when we mention completely unworkable, unviable alternative measures that are rooted in fantasy.

Necro

Yurt! wrote: »

Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, New Zealand. All economies that are open and life continues more or less as normal with negligible cases.

Yes, guffaw.

Blanch, you are Trump.

Mod:

Threadbanned when you come back from your holiday. Do not post in this thread again.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Not so.
I'm the one made comment on FG dodging questions and responsibility by speaking on SF. I don't care what FG think of SF when we want FG to answer questions or take action on what FG says and does.
Going from that to ask me to give alternative policy on behalf of the opposition is what's bizarre.

I am not asking you to give alternative policy on behalf of the opposition.

I am asking you to justify your blanket opposition to everything FG and Leo with your alternative proposals and policy.

Without that, your posts have been repeatedly criticised by many posters as representing nothing other than whinging and complaining. That criticism is fair comment unless you provide realistic alternatives. Going back to Covid as the big issue of the moment, saying that the government are bad because China has a better outcome is not a realistic criticism because there is zero consideration of the fact that the tools available to the Chinese (a huge repressive security force and a compliant population) are not available in Ireland.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not asking you to give alternative policy on behalf of the opposition.

I am asking you to justify your blanket opposition to everything FG and Leo with your alternative proposals and policy.

Without that, your posts have been repeatedly criticised by many posters as representing nothing other than whinging and complaining. That criticism is fair comment unless you provide realistic alternatives. Going back to Covid as the big issue of the moment, saying that the government are bad because China has a better outcome is not a realistic criticism because there is zero consideration of the fact that the tools available to the Chinese (a huge repressive security force and a compliant population) are not available in Ireland.

I do not believe you think that. I believe you are being dishonest here in an effort to dismiss pointed criticism of FG.
You try this often even though all criticism is based on a specific issue. LV leaking a confidential document to a pal for example or FG passing one application, their man Woulfe, while not passing on the other three applicants. MM said he was cool with the one he and others got because he trusted their judgement, not addressing the fact that they only got one 'choice' so unless he was completely unfit he was a shoe in. Things like that Blanch.
As remarked on here LV doesn't come up when he's not making an arse of himself politically.

Post one example, one quote where out of context and for no reason I chime in to 'whinge' or 'complain'.
This is yet another example of you turning things on the man to avoid the ball.

I never mentioned China, however you left out S. Korea, Australia and New Zealand in an effort to dishonestly bolster your point.
We are happy to do business with China but point to their flaws when it suits us. I'd have zero dealing with China.

This all stems from my commenting on the low level of online spin from YFG and FG in an effort to hide their blushes. It's low brow and Trumpesque.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

I do not believe you think that. I believe you are being dishonest here in an effort to dismiss pointed criticism of FG.
You try this often even though all criticism is based on a specific issue. LV leaking a confidential document to a pal for example or FG passing one application, their man Woulfe, while not passing on the other three applicants. MM said he was cool with the one he and others got because he trusted their judgement, not addressing the fact that they only got one 'choice' so unless he was completely unfit he was a shoe in. Things like that Blanch.
As remarked on here LV doesn't come up when he's not making an arse of himself politically.

Post one example of me engaging in your style of posting? One quote where out of context and for no reason I chime in to 'whinge' or 'complain'.
This is yet another example of you turning things on the man to avoid the ball.

I never mentioned China, however you left out Australia and New Zealand in an effort to bolster your point.
We are happy to do business with China but point to their flaws when it suits us. I'd have zero dealing with China.

This all stems from my commenting on the low level of online spin from YFG and FG in an effort to hide their blushes. It's low brow and Trumpesque.

Sorry, but I will leave it there, I was trying to be helpful.

All I will say is that your post clearly sets out the case I was making. There is no real alternative put forward, just a wandering long-winded complaint about FG and Leo.

As regards Australia and New Zealand, I addressed these previously. Unless you want to close the border with the North, they won't work here.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, but I will leave it there, I was trying to be helpful.

All I will say is that your post clearly sets out the case I was making. There is no real alternative put forward, just a wandering long-winded complaint about FG and Leo.

As regards Australia and New Zealand, I addressed these previously. Unless you want to close the border with the North, they won't work here.

You just ignored one of the 'alternatives' offered but shied away from by a government too afraid to offend and too afraid of supporting a political party they view as a threat. 'An all island approach to our health'.

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

As regards Australia and New Zealand, I addressed these previously. Unless you want to close the border with the North, they won't work here.

Surely the best way would be an all island approach to achieve the outcomes of Australia / New Zealand - you couldn't close the border here if you wanted as there's too many crossing points. Have testing at every port of entry on the whole island and mandatory isolation until results are known.

Solutionking

grayzer75 wrote: »

Surely the best way would be an all island approach to achieve the outcomes of Australia / New Zealand - you couldn't close the border here if you wanted as there's too many crossing points. Have testing at every port of entry on the whole island and mandatory isolation until results are known.

An all island approach would be preferred but that is impossible because of the incompetent government in the North.