Budget 2021 - EV tax and incentive changes

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote:

OMSP: €50,000

Hang on. Is the SEAI grant applied before the VRT or after?

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

Glad I already got my Model S in earlier this year!

A bit of a conundrum for people who placed a Tesla order in the last few days though.

They now have to decide if they want a 211 plate and a slightly increased price or a 202 plate on the current price.

I guess a 211 plate would be better financially for resale value.

Unless Tesla swallow the difference.

KCross

McGiver wrote: »

Hang on. Is the SEAI grant applied before the VRT or after?

The OMSP is before any grants or reliefs.

So, the ~€47k Model 3, for instance, has an OMSP of ~€58k.

The OMSP will now drop as the VRT amount will be reduced but the €5k relief will be gone so it will likely be slightly more expensive, I think.

I think this is how it would be...
Model 3 -
OMSP €57990 using 14% VRT --> €47990 after €5k grant and €5k VRT relief
OMSP €54429 using 7% VRT --> €49429 after €5k grant and no VRT relief.

€1439 increase... ?

TitianGerm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

OMSP: €50,000


Old VRT 14% = €7000
Rebate = €5000
Total VRT = €2000


New VRT 7% = €3500
Rebate = €0
Total VRT = €3500


Difference = €1500 increase

How does that work on the base ID3 or base ID4?

the_amazing_raisin

cannco253 wrote: »

so will the OMSPs come down to offset this?

Maybe?


They're in theory set by Revenue on what the car is worth in the open market. So for new cars, dealers can influence this considerably by dropping prices.


For used cars, depends on the car. you could see OMSPs rise for some 2nd hand EVs if there's a spike in demand (especially after ICE cars took a tax hit)

KCross

TitianGerm wrote: »

How does that work on the base ID3 or base ID4?

Not exactly clear yet as they need to publish the sliding scale they are applying for cars above €40k.

The ID.3 1st has...
OMSP of €42915 using 14% VRT --> €32915 after €10k grants, reliefs
OMSP of €40280 using 7% VRT --> €35279 after €5k grant but there is an additional VRT relief to be applied to that, which we dont know yet so I suspect it will be much the same end result.

the_amazing_raisin

TitianGerm wrote: »

How does that work on the base ID3 or base ID4?

I'm going to have a shot at the ID.4 1st Max (since that's what I've ordered)


ROTR price (before grants): €65,108
VRT 14%

Price before VRT = €57,112
14% VRT (before rebate) = €7996
VRT rebate = €5000
SEAI grant = €5000

ROTR price (after grants) = €55,108



VRT 7% amount = €3997
New Price (before grants) = €61,109
VRT rebate = €0
SEAI grant = €5000
New Price (after grants) = €56,109


So a €1k increase for a top spec ID.4, assuming my math is correct (which is a big assumption)

eagerv

Looks like the lower priced EVs will be hit with an increase of a few K.
Surely they are the ones they are trying to encourage?


Unless there are other rebates we are yet to hear about.


Also a few cents on Diesel and Petrol certainly will not encourage drivers either to change from Diesel to Petrol or to an EV.

jhegarty

Safe to assume there is no change to the SEAI grant ?

the_amazing_raisin

eagerv wrote: »

Looks like the lower priced EVs will be hit with an increase of a few K.
Surely they are the ones they are trying to encourage?

Not really, cars under €40k still recieve €5k VRT relief, on a lower amount, so VRT is still basically 0

the_amazing_raisin

jhegarty wrote: »

Safe to assume there is no change to the SEAI grant ?

Nothing was mentioned, so most likely it's going to stay for the time being

KCross

eagerv wrote: »

Looks like the lower priced EVs will be hit with an increase of a few K.
Surely they are the ones they are trying to encourage?


Unless there are other rebates we are yet to hear about.

That.

There is a table of VRT relief we dont yet have to cover cars with an OMSP between €40k-€50k

jhegarty

Here is my working on how it will impact the Model 3 :



SR+ Base Price : € 55,800 (vrt logic I don't get)
14% = €7812 - €5000 = € 2812
7% = €3906


Performance Base Price : € 75,000 (vrt logic I don't get)
14% = €10500 - €5000 = € 5500
7% = €5250


So SR+ goes up and Performance goes down.

McGiver

eagerv wrote: »

Looks like the lower priced EVs will be hit with an increase of a few K.
Surely they are the ones they are trying to encourage?


Unless there are other rebates we are yet to hear about.


Also a few cents on Diesel and Petrol certainly will not encourage drivers either to change from Diesel to Petrol or to an EV.

Exactly, it's all upside down. High-end EVs will get cheaper, low- medium-end more expensive. Is it intentional or just a botchery?

jhegarty

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly, it's all upside down. High-end EVs will get cheaper, low- medium-end more expensive. Is it intentional or just a botchery?

Low end stays the same
Mid end goes up
High end goes down

ELM327

Interestingly this is going to reduce prices of new Model X/S performance, the Taycan etc, while pushing up "normal" priced evs

Only in Ireland.

Not that I'm complaining.

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Not really, cars under €40k still recieve €5k VRT relief, on a lower amount, so VRT is still basically 0

Are you sure? This doesn't make much sense.
I thought the objective was to get rid of rebates and replace it with a simpler VRT system based on % for various types of cars (BEV, PHEV, ICE).

If what you say is the case, the system is not being made simpler but stays the same (i.e. complicated) and just the BEV VRT rate is reduced but with no effect. Maybe it's a preparation of the structure for the time when BEVs will be actually taxed (when the i.e. rebate is withdrawn). But they can't be thinking that much ahead surely...

McGiver

jhegarty wrote: »

Low end stays the same
Mid end goes up
High end goes down

Depends what the cut-offs for low/mid/high are!

the_amazing_raisin

McGiver wrote: »

Are you sure? This doesn't make much sense.
I thought the objective was to get rid of rebates and replace it with a simpler VRT system based on % for various types of cars (BEV, PHEV, ICE).

If what you say is the case, the system is not being made simpler but stays the same (i.e complicated) and just the BEV VRT rate is reduced but with no effect. Maybe it's a preparation of the structure for the time when BEVs will be actually taxed (when the ie. rebate is withdrawn). But they can't be thinking that much ahead surely...

They're getting rid of the PHEV rebate and tapering the BEV rebate above €40k.


I think they're very much getting ready to remove the rebate. Politically it's easier to remove grants and reliefs as opposed to increasing tax

lafors

Absolute madness that they did this, you want people to take up BEV and yet it looks like you increase the prices? Even if you are slightly off on your values and it's a similar price it's a pure sham, trying to make themselves sound greener but actually doing nothing.

BTW as for those saying why not 0% VRT or 0 tax. Never going to happen. Eventually the majority of vehicles will be zero emissions. If they dropped to zero then 1 the changeover would be too quick for the country's infrastructure (charging/electricity specifically) and two there would be a hell of a lot of people protesting bring VRT back or tax back in when they would certainly end up doing.
That's my view on it anyway.

More expensive electric cars ? That will surely give people the incentive to change, if the model 3 is going up in price it will make me think twice and just keep the i3, I give the government too much of my hard earned already, I would
Love to see ev sales plummet until the government cop on and eliminate VRT entirely that and massive VAT bill it’s a joke.

What’s the impact to ice prices ?

SleetAndSnow

So the likes of the Zoe/e208 are expected to increase in price unless dealers take the hit? Slightly confusing new system

MJohnston

lafors wrote: »

Absolute madness that they did this, you want people to take up BEV and yet it looks like you increase the prices? Even if you are slightly off on your values and it's a similar price it's a pure sham, trying to make themselves sound greener but actually doing nothing.

BTW as for those saying why not 0% VRT or 0 tax. Never going to happen. Eventually the majority of vehicles will be zero emissions. If they dropped to zero then 1 the changeover would be too quick for the country's infrastructure (charging/electricity specifically) and two there would be a hell of a lot of people protesting bring VRT back or tax back in when they would certainly end up doing.
That's my view on it anyway.

Ultimately I think every EV owner would agree that the VRT relief is just extra money in the pocket of the car manufacturers/dealers. Same is true of the SEAI grant.

The manufacturers don't need that sort of incentive to mass produce EVs anymore.

McGiver

lafors wrote: »

Absolute madness that they did this, you want people to take up BEV and yet it looks like you increase the prices? Even if you are slightly off on your values and it's a similar price it's a pure sham, trying to make themselves sound greener but actually doing nothing.

BTW as for those saying why not 0% VRT or 0 tax. Never going to happen. Eventually the majority of vehicles will be zero emissions. If they dropped to zero then 1 the changeover would be too quick for the country's infrastructure (charging/electricity specifically) and two there would be a hell of a lot of people protesting bring VRT back or tax back in when they would certainly end up doing.
That's my view on it anyway.

No, it wouldn't be, that's not the case. Irish folk won't switch to EVs en masse today even if the VRT was 0% and if the EVs just few grand cheaper, forget about it....there's way too many factors involved and EVs are still more expensive than ICE.

It's taken Norway decade(s) from the point of when the perks were introduced (tax exemptions in 1996/97) and they are only at 10% of the car fleet now. It would be a bit faster now, as the EVs are now more viable but still, you need 5+ years minimum. Would be even more here. This argument doesn't stand.

ba_barabus

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

So the likes of the Zoe/e208 are expected to increase in price unless dealers take the hit? Slightly confusing new system

This is a pity as I was kicking the tyres on one not too long ago.

McGiver

MJohnston wrote: »

Ultimately I think every EV owner would agree that the VRT relief is just extra money in the pocket of the car manufacturers/dealers. Same is true of the SEAI grant.

The manufacturers don't need that sort of incentive to mass produce EVs anymore.

Yes, again no need to reinvent the wheel just to be green/Irish. Get rid of grants and rebates, go the tax route as Norway, it's been tested and works.

BEV - 0 VRT, 0 VAT (or reduced VRT/VAT at least)
ICE - high VRT (based on engine size, CO2, PM and NOX) + VAT

jhegarty

McGiver wrote: »

Depends what the cut-offs for low/mid/high are!

Some slight rounding but :

low : €0 to somewhere between €40k and €50k
mid : somewhere between €40k and €50k and €70k
high : €70k +

the_amazing_raisin

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

So the likes of the Zoe/e208 are expected to increase in price unless dealers take the hit? Slightly confusing new system

No, those cars cost less than €40k so still benefit from VRT rebate.


It's more expensive cars that are getting hit

McGiver

jhegarty wrote: »

Some slight rounding but :

low : €0 to somewhere between €40k and €50k
mid : somewhere between €40k and €50k and €70k
high : €70k +

Where do the likes of Peugeot e-208 or VW ID3 stand? Is that low pre-grant?

KCross

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

So the likes of the Zoe/e208 are expected to increase in price unless dealers take the hit? Slightly confusing new system

ba_barabus wrote: »

This is a pity as I was kicking the tyres on one not too long ago.

I wouldnt think they will go up. They will stay much the same as they will be ~€40k OMSP so the majority of the €5k VRT relief will still apply.

McGiver wrote: »

Where do the likes of Peugeot e-208 or VW ID3 stand? Is that low pre-grant?

ID.3 much the same.... we dont have all the info yet.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114915285&postcount=57

McGiver

The media call it "the largest VRT overhaul in over a decade". Yet, it doesn't address transition to low-/zero-emission transport an iota as far as I can see.

jhegarty

McGiver wrote: »

Where do the likes of Peugeot e-208 or VW ID3 stand? Is that low pre-grant?

No change on the 208 as it's below the line on both systems.

ID.3 looks to be just on the line. So a well speced version would have an increase. A base should stay the same.

rocketspocket

A massive fail if the EV cars go up due to this - i only bought a BEV due to the tax breaks & for no other reason (& got mocked for doing so)

lotmc

Does anyone know if the VRT rebates on used hybrids / plug-in hybrids are ending when the new system kicks in on 1st Jan 2021?

The VRT on a particular 2018 plug-in hybrid (Golf GTE) is currently calculated at 14%, but that calculated amount is then reduced by €2,000 in accordance with the rebate outlined here https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/calculating-vrt/electric-and-hybrid-vehicles.aspx

From what I can see, commencing 1st Jan 2021 the VRT will be calculated at 7%, but there may not be any rebate???

For the specific car that I am looking at (Golf GTE) the net effect will be an increase in the VRT payable of about €250, unless some form of rebate remains.

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

Ultimately I think every EV owner would agree that the VRT relief is just extra money in the pocket of the car manufacturers/dealers. Same is true of the SEAI grant.

The manufacturers don't need that sort of incentive to mass produce EVs anymore.

You're correct they don't but they also don't care if EV sales die because ICE is highly profitable so it's a bad situation really. Our real issue in Ireland is VRT it's a scam the Government implemented to extract more taxes from us, eliminating this won't make electric car manufacturers richer but it might make electrics cheap enough to make People consider ev so they missed a huge opportunity today, as usual, they make poor decisions.

The real issue is that there isn't being enough to make the purchase of new ICE cars a lot more difficult, this is ultimately the real issue.

Car manufacturers can afford to make electric cars but they want to maximise profit, they don't care what they sell as long as they make as much money as possible so if you stop them selling ICE cars they won't be long about making cheaper electric cars, for now the incentive isn't there but the Governments decision is leading me towards not changing my i3 and just keeping it or getting a Diesel but since I have a bit more than 15 K left to pay I might just pay it off and forget about electric cars for a couple of years because I

EDIT: 'll be giving less tax to the Government with EV I meant by not paying for diesel and new car.

the_amazing_raisin

Deleted User wrote: »

You're correct they don't but they also don't care if EV sales die because ICE is highly profitable so it's a bad situation really.

That's not 100% true, remember car manufacturers are on the hook for large fines if they don't meet emissions targets. EVs might not bring in as much profit, but they significantly decrease the amount a car maker might be fined

Dayor Knight

lotmc wrote: »

Does anyone know if the VRT rebates on used hybrids / plug-in hybrids are ending when the new system kicks in on 1st Jan 2021?

The VRT on a particular 2018 plug-in hybrid (Golf GTE) is currently calculated at 14%, but that calculated amount is then reduced by €2,000 in accordance with the rebate outlined here https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/calculating-vrt/electric-and-hybrid-vehicles.aspx

From what I can see, commencing 1st Jan 2021 the VRT will be calculated at 7%, but there may not be any rebate???

For the specific car that I am looking at (Golf GTE) the net effect will be an increase in the VRT payable of about €250, unless some form of rebate remains.

That's the way I would read it. Rebate gone, 7% VRT rate would apply.

MJohnston

cruisey1987 wrote: »

That's not 100% true, remember car manufacturers are on the hook for large fines if they don't meet emissions targets. EVs might not bring in as much profit, but they significantly decrease the amount a car maker might be fined

Yep — we’ve now reached a point in global politics where manufacturers no longer have any choice about whether they produce EVs or not. Either they start preparing for 2030 targets (and that’s something they have to do NOW with production and design lead times), or they’re going to go out of business.

KCross

lotmc wrote: »

Does anyone know if the VRT rebates on used hybrids / plug-in hybrids are ending when the new system kicks in on 1st Jan 2021?

The VRT on a particular 2018 plug-in hybrid (Golf GTE) is currently calculated at 14%, but that calculated amount is then reduced by €2,000 in accordance with the rebate outlined here https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/calculating-vrt/electric-and-hybrid-vehicles.aspx

From what I can see, commencing 1st Jan 2021 the VRT will be calculated at 7%, but there may not be any rebate???

For the specific car that I am looking at (Golf GTE) the net effect will be an increase in the VRT payable of about €250, unless some form of rebate remains.

Correct.... the wording is...

VRT reliefs for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles and hybrids will be allowed to expire having regard to the fact that there will now be much lower VRT rates for low emission cars.

McGiver

Thinking out loud here. Actually, the end of any subsidy/rebate for PHEV is a good thing - no fence sitting, provided that ICE are taxed heavily. It will be BEV vs ICE in the ring.

I'm not anti-PHEV per se, and yes, PHEVs have some value, but given the policy it's better to go for pure BEV policy wise I'd say.

lotmc

KCross wrote: »

Correct.... the wording is...

VRT reliefs for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles and hybrids will be allowed to expire having regard to the fact that there will now be much lower VRT rates for low emission cars.

Thanks. So for 2018 PHEV's (as an example), anything valued at over €28.5K will get cheaper; anything valued under €28.5K will get dearer. Does not seem to make a lot of sense to increase the VRT on smaller PHEV's, while reducing the VRT on larger PHEV's, but that is exactly what they have done. They must want everyone to drive PHEV SUV's.

Thierry12

jhegarty wrote: »

Low end stays the same
Mid end goes up
High end goes down

Should be the opposite

Hire clowns, get a circus

McGiver

Thierry12 wrote: »

Should be the opposite

Hire clowns, get a circus

I don't see any reason why there should be any "bands" incorporated in the design - just apply 1 tax rate for all BEVs simples i.e. 0 for now , increase as needed as EV numbers grow.

Irish governments are in love with bands. Almost every fiscal sort of policy is modelled in bands, with cut-off points and other convoluted stuff etc. It's so complicated and results exactly at these sort of paradoxical situations /curves (if plotted on a graph) like this...

low stays the same
mid goes up
hi goes down

KCross

McGiver wrote: »

Thinking out loud here. Actually, the end of any subsidy/rebate for PHEV is a good thing - no fence sitting, provided that ICE are taxed heavily. It will be BEV vs ICE in the ring.

I'm not anti-PHEV per se, and yes, PHEVs have some value, but given the policy it's better to go for pure BEV policy wise I'd say.

They havent really done away with it though, alot of PHEV's will also get the 7% VRT rate the same as BEV's, so PHEV's are also still effectively getting a relief.

KCross

Interesting one...

A 2021 allocation of €15 million will support up to 750 taxi and hackney drivers in scrapping their older vehicles and replacing them zero-emission capable electric alternatives. The scrappage scheme will be open for taxis and hackneys reaching their maximum permissible age limit in 2020/21. Up to €20,000 will be made available for eligible drivers switching to a new all-electric vehicle and up to €32,500 for those moving to a wheel chair accessible full electric vehicle.

€20k is a big number for that!


€10k incentive still remains for the taxi's not reaching their max age.

And dedicated Taxi charging infrastructure

The roll-out of dedicated EV Taxi Recharging Points will also be stepped up to support the transition of this key sector, helping to encourage the wider vehicle transition and supporting cleaner air in our cities and towns.

eagerv

Self charging Hybrids such as the Corolla will be cheaper after the Budget changes, according to Toyota....


I won't comment, but many in rural Ireland will be happy...:rolleyes:

gally74

KCross wrote: »

Interesting one...

A 2021 allocation of €15 million will support up to 750 taxi and hackney drivers in scrapping their older vehicles and replacing them zero-emission capable electric alternatives. The scrappage scheme will be open for taxis and hackneys reaching their maximum permissible age limit in 2020/21. Up to €20,000 will be made available for eligible drivers switching to a new all-electric vehicle and up to €32,500 for those moving to a wheel chair accessible full electric vehicle.

€20k is a big number for that!


€10k incentive still remains for the taxi's not reaching their max age.

And dedicated Taxi charging infrastructure

The roll-out of dedicated EV Taxi Recharging Points will also be stepped up to support the transition of this key sector, helping to encourage the wider vehicle transition and supporting cleaner air in our cities and towns.

If nothing else this is genius... How many people will get told how great the cars are from taxi drivers. And how reliable,

liamog

I just ran the numbers for my Mini.
If I'd have bought with the new VRT rules, then my car would of been €540 cheaper. (Basically I wouldn't of had to pay the small bit of VRT I did)

Cona

Im in the process of buying a BMW 530e PHEV...apologies but what does this mean for me? Will it increase the price for me? When does this kick in?

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

That's not 100% true, remember car manufacturers are on the hook for large fines if they don't meet emissions targets. EVs might not bring in as much profit, but they significantly decrease the amount a car maker might be fined

No, they're just whinge as they always to to their local governments and they in turn will whinge to the E.U and it goes on and on.