Cycling during the lockdown

sy_flembeck

Funnily enough, when in opposition the current Taoiseach reckoned the 5km limit not only had no basis in science, but was also, in fact, dangerous as it forced people to congregate in crowded areas:

https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-5km-limit-5109093-May2020/

Effects

sy_flembeck wrote: »

Funnily enough, when in opposition the current Taoiseach reckoned the 5km limit not only had no basis in science, but was also, in fact, dangerous as it forced people to congregate in crowded areas:

That's the opposition's job, to moan and complain about the party in power. They don't have to actually believe what they are saying.

siochain

What’s the penalty the mention for going outside 5km?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2dc71-level-5/?referrer=http://www.gov.ie/level5/#exercise-and-sporting-events

a148pro

siochain wrote: »

What’s the penalty the mention for going outside 5km?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2dc71-level-5/?referrer=http://www.gov.ie/level5/#exercise-and-sporting-events

I heard mention of rising fines, so something like 50 for first offence, 125, then 250. One would hope there would be a fair amount of discretion too. I don't think cyclists were really targeted the last time.

secman

siochain wrote: »

What’s the penalty the mention for going outside 5km?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2dc71-level-5/?referrer=http://www.gov.ie/level5/#exercise-and-sporting-events

Nothing if you say you cycled to a grave...no restriction on distance at all...seriously. Plan your spin to a cemetery preferably one where you have a relative buried and take a selfie photo of the cemetery in the background.

magicbastarder

any checkpoint i hit in the first lockdowns, i was waved through without hesitation.
i know someone who has been travelling from stepaside to north county dublin several times a week (by car) and was saying the checkpoints she's hitting are entering and leaving the M50, and has not been stopped at any outside that context.
that was during the 'don't leave dublin' lockdown though, they'll have a different approach for level 5 probably.

MangleBadger

I was stopped at one checkpoint during the first lockdown. The Garda said that as far as he was concerned if you are just out for a cycle, and you’re not stopping and going into shops/cafes he had no issue with cyclists breaking the 5km limit. But I’m guessing that is his personal opinion.

magicbastarder

secman wrote: »

a cemetery preferably one where you have a relative buried

a key detail. gardai may not buy your story if you say 'i went to visit a grave' and they ask 'whose?' and you say 'god, i dunno, but the key thing was it was a grave i visited'...

GAA is like the sacred cow, listening to the Louth Captain on radio not painting a great picture, giving out that there was zero testing of players etc. that the likes ex players were mad to see the all Ireland go ahead at all costs. I assume he was talking about O'Rourke. Heard him on twice today. If they want to be treated like elite athletes then the GAA needs to behave like it IMO

Anyway back to the 5Km radius, some of the roads I used last time might not be great in the wet days.

alentejo

I have a lock down route, however its about 6 k from my house. I do intend to break the rules in order to get a decent hill in for training.

sy_flembeck

Effects wrote: »

That's the opposition's job, to moan and complain about the party in power. They don't have to actually believe what they are saying.

Of course they don't. But they expect people to follow them now. So it either has a basis in science or it doesn't. And if it doesn't then why is it being implemented. My 5km limit became so dangerous last time I had to stay off the bike for a week waiting for the limit to be extended out.

at1withmyself

Folks no need to post if your going to break the rules, have consideration for the people this is effecting. The rules are there to save life's and the economy.

bazermc

Hopefully they’ll close the Phoenix Park again to all parked cars.

Macy0161

I was stopped a couple of times around Roundwood, and ultimately produced my Road ID which has my address. 100% wasn't "waved through because I was a cyclist" by the local cops up here. Was doing a loop (obvious) and actually met him a couple of times, and not just on the main roads/ routes either.

magicbastarder

depends on where you live, obviously. up around roundwood a cyclist would be much more likely to be outside their zone, than i was on collins avenue where i was waved through several times.

Macy0161

Yes, of course. Just putting it out there that around Wicklow they were stopping and turning back cyclists during the first lockdown. It's not get to the hills and you'll be grand - they had checks around Roundwood, Laragh, Sally Gap, Featherbeds, Kilmac, Ashford (and those are just the ones I am aware of) and were turning cyclists.

bazermc

Well at least it’s not the 2km restriction like the first time.

Effects

I was stopped in the car a good few times during the first lockdown. Including three times on one round trip from Dublin 3 to Sandyford. Dept. of Ag exemption, but was never asked to prove it any time I was stopped.
I did the same journey on the bike and was never stopped. Just wish I had a cargo bike so I could cycle instead of driving on some essential trips I make.

silverharp

At the moment I'd be glad to be turned around at some of those spots mentioned above :pac: , the shorter days is going to limit what you can do anyway during the week. I will certainly be doing a few spins up Johnny foxes way, decent enough climb and under 2hrs.

a148pro

at1withmyself wrote: »

Folks no need to post if your going to break the rules, have consideration for the people this is effecting. The rules are there to save life's and the economy.

I agree no need to post. People are adults and have had a wealth of information available to them for months now, its for them to make their own decision.

However, I have yet to hear a rationale for limiting people's outdoor exercise to any particular distance. And I have yet to hear anyone in the media questioning it. And eight months into a pandemic that is a disgrace.

That rule is not there to save lives and the rules in general are not there to save the economy or anything near it, for better or worse. I support any rule that limits the spread of this virus, I have been in level 5 since March, I haven't had people in my house, I've been wearing a mask indoors. But preventing me from cycling more than 5k from my house, or bringing my family to a forest or park more than 5k from my house, is a nonsense that will only damage mental health with no meaningful public health gain. And why we accept this without question is beyond me.

Eamonnator

a148pro wrote: »

I agree no need to post. People are adults and have had a wealth of information available to them for months now, its for them to make their own decision.

However, I have yet to hear a rationale for limiting people's outdoor exercise to any particular distance. And I have yet to hear anyone in the media questioning it. And eight months into a pandemic that is a disgrace.

That rule is not there to save lives and the rules in general are not there to save the economy or anything near it, for better or worse. I support any rule that limits the spread of this virus, I have been in level 5 since March, I haven't had people in my house, I've been wearing a mask indoors. But preventing me from cycling more than 5k from my house, or bringing my family to a forest or park more than 5k from my house, is a nonsense that will only damage mental health with no meaningful public health gain. And why we accept this without question is beyond me.

Was there not a problem in Laragh/Glendalough in the early days, when a lot of people thought it was okay for them to visit parks etc.
In my own area, car parking on Bettystown beach has been prohibited since March for that very reason.

magicbastarder

a148pro wrote: »

However, I have yet to hear a rationale for limiting people's outdoor exercise to any particular distance.

i've heard it put many times.
one of explicit reasons this was brought in was the crowds of people who descended on beauty spots when the lockdown became inevitable.
if you limit people to 2km from their home, it seriously limits the number of people who can cram themselves onto the beach at brittas bay.
it simply helps prevent hotspots developing. and would help the virus spreading from one area to another.

another lesser, but perhaps more visceral reason is that if you cycled up to the sally gap during a time where the hospitals are strained, and crashed the bike, they really don't need the extra hassle of sending an ambulance up there for you. and then potentially having to find a slot for you in the hospital when the beds are all full.

my mother in law went to kildare village during the county lockdown and gave a half-assed excuse for it. the issue there is that if you're from a hotspot location and take the virus to somewhere that people from many other locations congregate, like kildare village, you may have succeeded in creating a case in portlaoise or further away, from a case originating in dublin.

Macy0161

Again, the restrictions are to protect the locals too. People live and work in Roundwood, Laragh etc. The crowds at Vartry Reservoir, Glendalough, Pier Gates, Brittas Bay etc made it unsafe, or at least make it feel unsafe, for the locals who have the direct access before the check points were put in place.

Then you also couldn't get into to do "essential" shopping, as the crowds descended to get their ice cream or coffee in the centra.

Risk is minimised being outside - it's not zero.

I'm reluctant to call it selfishness, but at best it's not thinking about the impact on the communities that (albeit are lucky enough) to live in these places.

Tenzor07

magicbastarder wrote: »

another lesser, but perhaps more visceral reason is that if you cycled up to the sally gap during a time where the hospitals are strained, and crashed the bike, they really don't need the extra hassle of sending an ambulance up there for you. and then potentially having to find a slot for you in the hospital when the beds are all full..

Well, there ya have it, the reason for the 5k limit as I see it is to cancel out the risk that an individual who cycles out to Sally Gap for instance may need the services of the Ambulance, rescue Helicopter, mountain rescue teams and the A&E team at a hospital, at least close to home you stand a fighting chance of being picked up in a car by someone from your household and brought home to patch yourself up or call your own Doctor if you have an accident...

.....nothing to do with the "Spread of the Virus" ... there's nothing better for your physical and mental health than getting out in the fresh air for an hour or two... Zwift and the Turbo trainer can tide you over but can't replace getting outside...

a148pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've heard it put many times.
one of explicit reasons this was brought in was the crowds of people who descended on beauty spots when the lockdown became inevitable.
if you limit people to 2km from their home, it seriously limits the number of people who can cram themselves onto the beach at brittas bay.
it simply helps prevent hotspots developing. and would help the virus spreading from one area to another.

I live in Dublin City Centre. What this provision does is forces people to congregate in what little space is available to them nearby. So it actually increases the cramming. You can actually see this right now - last two weekends I cycled Dublin mountains. Rammed. Both a road traffic risk and increased infection risk due to congregation. Wicklow empty. Why was Dublin rammed? Because people were sheepishly refusing to cross the border to go to other beauty spots instead.

Quite apart from the fact that the science unequivocally shows that this virus does not transmit outside in statistically significant numbers, cramming people in like that makes it far more likely it will.

If there's a problem with people congregating in a particular spot then manage it. Make it so you have to book a slot in a given forest / park. Make it so that only given post codes or car regs can access at given times. Suggest the large number of alternative locations within an hours drive of Dublin where people could go. LIVE WITH THE VIRUS - remember that? This is an important issue. The mental health correlation between outdoor time and well being is proven and beyond doubt. Make an effort to manage it rather than imposing a blanket "computer says no" ban. It might have been arguable in March that they had better things to be doing. Its unacceptable now.

magicbastarder wrote: »

another lesser, but perhaps more visceral reason is that if you cycled up to the sally gap during a time where the hospitals are strained, and crashed the bike, they really don't need the extra hassle of sending an ambulance up there for you. and then potentially having to find a slot for you in the hospital when the beds are all full.

First of all, the number of people that will be hospitalised due to cycling accidents is statistically insignificant. It would be FAR more logical to ban DIY or alcohol consumption. You are literally talking several hundred fold difference in hospital admissions due to the latter. But that wouldn't be very Irish would it?

Secondly, I invite you to cycle Cruagh Hellfire Johnny Foxes area this Saturday. Road, parking and cycling conditions are much more conducive to accidents as a result of these provisions. Open and encourage people to go to other beauty spots and you reduce this risk. I'd say I'll be at least 40 times safer in Wicklow than those areas this weekend.

Thirdly, the health service is not under pressure at the moment. This is worth repeating, the health service is not under pressure. if it was then maybe you could argue that cyclists should stay at home. But do that when it happens.

Re your mother in law's example. The restrictions mean, all other things being equal, she will instead congregate in a similar area within 5k. She'll infect the same amount of people. If you have one area which has been lucky enough to keep the numbers down then I agree, other people should not be going into that area. That's fine. Its rational. But if the two counties have the same incidence level then there['s no point whatsoever. And the incidence level I think is actually higher now in several counties adjoining Dublin at the moment so we're not going to endanger them, they will actually endanger us (which of course is a legitimate argument for us staying away from those areas).

In case people haven't realized - this isn't going away. What we are doing now, is being done to give the politicians the political security of people having a nice Christmas. We are going straight back into lockdown in January. Its an idiotic cycle, but if you're going to do it please at least make it as easy as possible for people congruent with limiting the spread. Don't be idiots about it.

And before people come out with the broken record response crap "this isn't about you" or "we're doing this to save lives" that is an argument for measured restrictions which will limit the spread of the virus, while being proportionate and allowing people a quality of life. These aren't, and its not good enough.

I haven't seen the penalty provisions yet, but its likely that if you live in Carrick On Suir and walk down the border to Tipp / Waterford, or Bray and do similar, you'll commit a criminal offence. If you drive more than 5k to bring your kids to see their grand parents, who may not have many years left and may not have anything else left in their lives but their grandkids, you'll commit a criminal offence. If you go cycling on your own more than 5k away, despite this activity presenting zero public health risk, you'll commit a criminal offence.

But if you have a house party, and invite 5 of your mates in for a drinking game, which is the ONLY thing NPHET have ACTUALLY identified as being a significant cause of virus spread, I bet they won't criminalise it, because of Catholic Ireland hangover of leaving people do what they want in their own homes.

And that's a ****ing disgrace

buffalo

a148pro wrote: »

Catholic Ireland hangover of leaving people do what they want in their own homes

I'm pretty sure Catholic Ireland wanted to control what you did in their own homes. I don't remember any sermons that being gay in your house was grand?

MangleBadger

a148pro wrote: »

I live in Dublin City Centre. What this provision does is forces people to congregate in what little space is available to them nearby. So it actually increases the cramming. You can actually see this right now - last two weekends I cycled Dublin mountains. Rammed. Both a road traffic risk and increased infection risk due to congregation. Wicklow empty. Why was Dublin rammed? Because people were sheepishly refusing to cross the border to go to other beauty spots instead.

Quite apart from the fact that the science unequivocally shows that this virus does not transmit outside in statistically significant numbers, cramming people in like that makes it far more likely it will.

If there's a problem with people congregating in a particular spot then manage it. Make it so you have to book a slot in a given forest / park. Make it so that only given post codes or car regs can access at given times. Suggest the large number of alternative locations within an hours drive of Dublin where people could go. LIVE WITH THE VIRUS - remember that? This is an important issue. The mental health correlation between outdoor time and well being is proven and beyond doubt. Make an effort to manage it rather than imposing a blanket "computer says no" ban. It might have been arguable in March that they had better things to be doing. Its unacceptable now.




First of all, the number of people that will be hospitalised due to cycling accidents is statistically insignificant. It would be FAR more logical to ban DIY or alcohol consumption. You are literally talking several hundred fold difference in hospital admissions due to the latter. But that wouldn't be very Irish would it?

Secondly, I invite you to cycle Cruagh Hellfire Johnny Foxes area this Saturday. Road, parking and cycling conditions are much more conducive to accidents as a result of these provisions. Open and encourage people to go to other beauty spots and you reduce this risk. I'd say I'll be at least 40 times safer in Wicklow than those areas this weekend.

Thirdly, the health service is not under pressure at the moment. This is worth repeating, the health service is not under pressure. if it was then maybe you could argue that cyclists should stay at home. But do that when it happens.

Re your mother in law's example. The restrictions mean, all other things being equal, she will instead congregate in a similar area within 5k. She'll infect the same amount of people. If you have one area which has been lucky enough to keep the numbers down then I agree, other people should not be going into that area. That's fine. Its rational. But if the two counties have the same incidence level then there['s no point whatsoever. And the incidence level I think is actually higher now in several counties adjoining Dublin at the moment so we're not going to endanger them, they will actually endanger us (which of course is a legitimate argument for us staying away from those areas).

In case people haven't realized - this isn't going away. What we are doing now, is being done to give the politicians the political security of people having a nice Christmas. We are going straight back into lockdown in January. Its an idiotic cycle, but if you're going to do it please at least make it as easy as possible for people congruent with limiting the spread. Don't be idiots about it.

And before people come out with the broken record response crap "this isn't about you" or "we're doing this to save lives" that is an argument for measured restrictions which will limit the spread of the virus, while being proportionate and allowing people a quality of life. These aren't, and its not good enough.

I haven't seen the penalty provisions yet, but its likely that if you live in Carrick On Suir and walk down the border to Tipp / Waterford, or Bray and do similar, you'll commit a criminal offence. If you drive more than 5k to bring your kids to see their grand parents, who may not have many years left and may not have anything else left in their lives but their grandkids, you'll commit a criminal offence. If you go cycling on your own more than 5k away, despite this activity presenting zero public health risk, you'll commit a criminal offence.

But if you have a house party, and invite 5 of your mates in for a drinking game, which is the ONLY thing NPHET have ACTUALLY identified as being a significant cause of virus spread, I bet they won't criminalise it, because of Catholic Ireland hangover of leaving people do what they want in their own homes.

And that's a ****ing disgrace

Well that was a lot to digest...

People are already complaining that the levels and restrictions are too complicated. And you want to make them more complicated? Should we create an ever evolving venn diagram to show which areas have a similar infection level that we are allowed to visit?
And we do not have the resources to either implement or enforce being allowed go to a beach at a certain time based on your post code.
We are at the highest level of lockdown. We were at level 2 and people took liberties. Well now you don't get to have liberties. Its 5km. Does it suck? Yes. Tough.
5km isn't fair because you live in the city so you can't get a good cycle in? What about people who live in the country and sure they can get a great cycle in but they have only 1 shop to go to, and nothing else.
I'd rather feel like I'm a hamster in a wheel for 6 weeks than have somebody I care about getting sick.
This groups complaints about the minimal risk of cycling is another groups complaint about visiting relatives, or getting their hair cut, or watching GAA. We all have to make sacrifices.

secman

There are plenty of "no sense " measures in the lockdown , one that springs to mind is Close the pubs Keep off licences open..... yet house parties and gatherings has been hugely identified as known hotspots of covid cases. Mind boggles .
Guards are presently causing large tail backs for people genuinely going to work but being very reluctant in stopping house parties and large gatherings. I know of a case last weekend where a friend called the guards to report a house party and guards didn't arrive till 4:30 am
FFS

Tim76

Anyone know if you can cycle into a neighbouring county if part of that county is within your 5k radius? I live close to a county boundary.

07Lapierre

secman wrote: »

There are plenty of "no sense " measures in the lockdown , one that springs to mind is Close the pubs Keep off licences open..... yet house parties and gatherings has been hugely identified as known hotspots of covid cases. Mind boggles .
Guards are presently causing large tail backs for people genuinely going to work but being very reluctant in stopping house parties and large gatherings. I know of a case last weekend where a friend called the guards to report a house party and guards didn't arrive till 4:30 am
FFS

Checkpoints on public roads are legal right?
Can the Gardai legally prevent people gathering in Private homes?