Covid 19 Part XXVII- 62,002 ROI (1,915 deaths) 39,609 NI (724 deaths) (02/11) Read OP

The_Brood

MelbourneMan wrote: »

For twelve months, would make it not endless.

It is likely the best option by all analyses. However undesirable it might be, a regularly adapting sequence of restriction variations is in some ways and elegant and sophisticated way of managing a problem that at its heart has to solution at the moment. Demanding that there be one because people dont want lockdowns - a very wide term at this stage - is simply irrational. When the history of Covid is written, Ireland, and NPHET, will be judged to have managed the crisis extremely well, I am quite sure. The criticism and anger directed at them at the moment is an angry lashing out, which is neither merited, nor well considered.

Completely absurd.

There is no real "lockdown." This is an economic shutdown yes, but schools are opened, and powers to stop people from gathering or moving will continue to be very limited regardless of these fines they are threatening to implement. A real lockdown is what China implemented - everything totally shut down, people ordered to stay inside to exceptions, but only for a few weeks, and now virus has been gone for months and people are allowed to live their lives. Whatever other opinion people have of China, they handled the outbreak properly, saved their economy and did what was needed. They are living right now, we are imprisoned.

The approach in Ireland is the opposite - total economic ruin but measures not taken to decisively kill of the virus. All the sacrifice, none of the reward - and the consequence of course is multiple more economic lockdowns, misery and uncertainty to come.

The government is making literally the worst decision any government on this planet can make about anything. They need to be spat on for generations to come for this.

Stheno

MelbourneMan wrote: »

For twelve months, would make it not endless.

It is likely the best option by all analyses. However undesirable it might be, a regularly adapting sequence of restriction variations is in some ways and elegant and sophisticated way of managing a problem that at its heart has to solution at the moment. Demanding that there be one because people dont want lockdowns - a very wide term at this stage - is simply irrational. When the history of Covid is written, Ireland, and NPHET, will be judged to have managed the crisis extremely well, I am quite sure. The criticism and anger directed at them at the moment is an angry lashing out, which is neither merited, nor well considered.

No we will not be judged well
We are now in a situation where 100% of our population face punitive restrictions due to the failure of government to enforce restrictions and address issues in the heth service

The incredulous reaction of my global colleagues to our new restrictions today was astonishing

We have a weak government who now make decisions imo based on fear, a fear which NPHET fuel

They have lost all reason and balance

Ffs look at the drop in cases in the North the past week

5 times our 14 day incidence and our level three equivalent is having a dramatic affect

Cilldara_2000

Enter name here wrote: »

Essential purposes for travel (permitted outside 5km limit)
to shop for essential items
travel to and from work, where work involves providing an essential service (see below)
to attend medical appointments and collect medicines and other health products
for vital family reasons, such as providing care to children, elderly or vulnerable people, and in particular for those who live alone, as part of an extended household but excluding social family visits
to attend a wedding or funeral
for farming purposes i.e. food production and/or care of animals
to visit a grave
Exemptions for weddings (irrespective of venue):** Up to 25 guests for wedding ceremony and reception.

Exemption for funerals: Up to 10 mourners.



here is the link:
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/66269-ireland-placed-on-level-5-of-the-plan-for-living-with-covid/#:~:text=people%20will%20be%20permitted%20to,5%20km%20of%20their%20home&text=it%20is%20possible%20to%20meet,organised%20indoor%20or%20outdoor%20events

There's a problem here that this press release refers to "to shop for essential items". The web page on level 5, also updated today, says "for food shopping" and in a different position in the list. This makes things unclear and doesn't help people who want to make a good faith effort at following the guidelines.

Enter name here

DubInMeath wrote: »

You might want to read my posts lad, I never claimed that going to Argos etc was essential, allowed or not allowed.

The poster who I was replying to wanted to know how people would be able to go food shopping when public transport has been reduced. I simply replied that they managed earlier in the year when capacity was reduced etc and could still travel for the same.

You said "Shopping is an essential purpose."

This is why people are getting confused, shopping in general terms in not allowed. Just because a store offers a click and collect service doesn't mean you can leave the 5kms radius of your residence to pick it up unless it is classed as an essential item.

This clearly needs to spelt out to Joe Public other massive issues are going to be caused with people ignoring travel restrictions.

Jim_Hodge

Enter name here wrote: »

Essential purposes for travel (permitted outside 5km limit)
to shop for essential items
travel to and from work, where work involves providing an essential service (see below)
to attend medical appointments and collect medicines and other health products
for vital family reasons, such as providing care to children, elderly or vulnerable people, and in particular for those who live alone, as part of an extended household but excluding social family visits
to attend a wedding or funeral
for farming purposes i.e. food production and/or care of animals
to visit a grave
Exemptions for weddings (irrespective of venue):** Up to 25 guests for wedding ceremony and reception.

Exemption for funerals: Up to 10 mourners.



here is the link:
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/66269-ireland-placed-on-level-5-of-the-plan-for-living-with-covid/#:~:text=people%20will%20be%20permitted%20to,5%20km%20of%20their%20home&text=it%20is%20possible%20to%20meet,organised%20indoor%20or%20outdoor%20events

Look you can argue all you like. That is the executive summary. Read the entire document plus the supplementary documents referenced within it for the list of essential retail that permits travel outside the 5km radius.
I'm not advocating for it, just giving it as it is and had been explained all day on radio and TV if you don't want to read the documents.
At that I'm dome because it's pointless talking to the wall

Cluedo Monopoly

hmmm wrote: »

Their people are exhausted, I know one public health person personally and I'm worried about their own health. It's not their fault, they've never had the resources to deal with a full blown pandemic in this country.

I think what needs to happen in there (track and trace) is the appointment of a no-nonsense type, ideally perhaps from a private sector background, with a big budget and the authority to make things happen. Scale the operation up quickly and eliminate inefficiencies as much as possible. This is an emergency and needs to be treated as such.

They have the budget. They have the resources - HSE is massively overstaffed outside the front line workers even though many back office staff are work shy and welcome bureaucracy, inefficiency and paper pushing. It's a culture almost. What they don't have is the management or the will or the IT systems/infrastructure. They should have sorted that in June/July/August/September. Too late now.

Every country in the world told us that efficient track and trace was the only way to combat the virus.

Enter name here

Enter name here wrote: »

You said "Shopping is an essential purpose."

This is why people are getting confused, shopping in general terms in not allowed. Just because a store offers a click and collect service doesn't mean you can leave the 5kms radius of your residence to pick it up unless it is classed as an essential item.

This clearly needs to spelt out to Joe Public other massive issues are going to be caused with people ignoring travel restrictions.

No I'm not confused as to the guidelines, I'm aware of what they are.

You jumped in with both feet without reading the previous posts and just latching onto my last post and are just digging deeper now.

Enter name here

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Look you can argue all you like. That is the executive summary. Read the entire document plus the supplementary documents referenced within it for the list of essential retail that permits travel outside the 5km radius.
I'm not advocating for it, just giving it as it is and had been explained all day on radio and TV if you don't want to read the documents.
At that I'm dome because it's pointless talking to the wall

I run a retail chain and have had this argument all day long with the owners. If you can show me where is says you can leave the 5 kms radius to go shopping for non essential items show me. As i said to the owners today, against my judgment which was to close the shops down across the country they want to keep them open and offer click and collect. I said fine I will inform the managers to keep skeleton staff on and at all branches and offer click and collect. I will also ask customers to provide a photo ID showing that they reside within the 5km limit, if they do not I will ask managers not to serve them.

josip

I think those of us living on the coast should get a few extra km leeway inland.

Cilldara_2000

josip wrote: »

I think those of us living on the coast should get a few extra km leeway inland.

Take up swimming

Antares35

What happens if we need to see a dentist? Are they considered essential? Or taking a pet for veterinary check? Just drive around with a cat in your car

majcos

HSE operations report 20/10
311 confirmed cases in hospital as of 8pm
Highest in Cavan at 33, 29 in CUH, 27 in Tallaght, 25 in Beaumont, 19 Letterkenny
34 in ICU with 2 deaths in ICU in last 24 hours.
22 people ventilated.
38 ICU beds available

PixelTrawler

The NCT service is saying they are an essential service and people can travel for the test. I've my test next Friday for example. But I cant see how travel for an NCT is permitted under the 5km rules. It doesn't seem to fit any criteria listed.

Cluedo Monopoly

Antares35 wrote: »

What happens if we need to see a dentist? Are they considered essential?

Is it safe?

Is it safe?

caveat emptor

A lot of people saying the health service wasn't fit for purpose. The scale of the deficit is crazy. Might go someway to explain the border county situation.

https://twitter.com/conanbyrnecb7/status/1316123932399988738?s=20

MelbourneMan

Enter name here wrote: »

I run a retail chain and have had this argument all day long with the owners. If you can show me where is says you can leave the 5 kms radius to go shopping for non essential items show me. As i said to the owners today, against my judgment which was to close the shops down across the country they want to keep them open and offer click and collect. I said fine I will inform the managers to keep skeleton staff on and at all branches and offer click and collect. I will also ask customers to provide a photo ID showing that they reside within the 5km limit, if they do not I will ask managers not to serve them.

Hello. I must point out that you would be the one going outside the official guidelines we have published on essential retail. You can should you wish, ask your managers not to serve - but you would be acting of your own accord, and are not instructed or requested to do this by the listed measures.

Enter name here

Enter name here wrote: »

I run a retail chain and have had this argument all day long with the owners. If you can show me where is says you can leave the 5 kms radius to go shopping for non essential items show me. As i said to the owners today, against my judgment which was to close the shops down across the country they want to keep them open and offer click and collect. I said fine I will inform the managers to keep skeleton staff on and at all branches and offer click and collect. I will also ask customers to provide a photo ID showing that they reside with the 5km limit, if they do not I will ask managers not to serve them.

Ah that's not going to work.
My driving licence still has my address from Dublin from where it was originally registered, and there isn't a requirement to change the address until it is to be renewed.
If I go to the nearest store within 5km and you refuse to serve me by claiming that I am lying or breaking the restrictions, something you can't actually prove your leaving yourself open to legal action.
Don't get me wrong I don't think that people should be traveling for non essential reasons, but you're just digging yourself into a hole.

tigger123

PixelTrawler wrote: »

The NCT service is saying they are an essential service and people can travel for the test. I've my test next Friday for example. But I cant see how travel for an NCT is permitted under the 5km rules. It doesn't seem to fit any criteria listed.

Where did you see this?

Cilldara_2000

Antares35 wrote: »

What happens if we need to see a dentist? Are they considered essential? Or taking a pet for veterinary check? Just drive around with a cat in your car

Dentists and vets can remain open but you'd run into this issue about 5km that they're discussing above. There's no mention of bringing your cat to the vet and usually dental =/= medical.

The government really should look at matching off the reasons for travelling against the essential services that are allowed to remain open.

Other examples are banks, drycleaners and hardwares. These can remain open but you're not supposed to go more than 5km to them.

Happydays2020

Enter name here wrote: »

I run a retail chain and have had this argument all day long with the owners. If you can show me where is says you can leave the 5 kms radius to go shopping for non essential items show me. As i said to the owners today, against my judgment which was to close the shops down across the country they want to keep them open and offer click and collect. I said fine I will inform the managers to keep skeleton staff on and at all branches and offer click and collect. I will also ask customers to provide a photo ID showing that they reside within the 5km limit, if they do not I will ask managers not to serve them.

It seems to me that the owners of the business are showing good judgement in trying to do the best for their business while broadly keeping in line with rules that are a little inconsistent and defy logic in many respects. Asking customers for ID showing where they live (more than what Guards typically do) will probably lead to long term reputational damage to the business.

PixelTrawler

tigger123 wrote: »

Where did you see this?

It's on their homepage at the moment

Enter name here

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello. I must point out that you would be the one going outside the official guidelines we have published on essential retail. You can should you wish, ask your managers not to serve - but you would be acting of your own accord, and are not instructed or requested to do this by the listed measures.

Link for the published guidelines you refer to please.

Cilldara_2000

tigger123 wrote: »

Where did you see this?

Under "Public administration, emergency services and defence" in the list of essential services is "NCT for those with existing appointments". But again you're not supposed to travel more than 5km.

tigger123

PixelTrawler wrote: »

It's on their homepage at the moment

Is that not the update from September 25th (at the top of the page)?

This one: https://rsa.ie/Utility/News/Alerts/Coronavirus-COVIDID--19--No-Disruption-to-RSA-Services/

Edit: soz, i see it now on Gov.ie

froog

Stheno wrote: »

No we will not be judged well
We are now in a situation where 100% of our population face punitive restrictions due to the failure of government to enforce restrictions and address issues in the heth service

The incredulous reaction of my global colleagues to our new restrictions today was astonishing

We have a weak government who now make decisions imo based on fear, a fear which NPHET fuel

They have lost all reason and balance

Ffs look at the drop in cases in the North the past week

5 times our 14 day incidence and our level three equivalent is having a dramatic affect

to be fair a huge portion of the population basically checked out of the whole thing sometime in the summer, fueled by conspiracy theory nonsense that seems more prevalent every day. the new government made multiple fcuk ups of course, but the public did not help. just today on this very forum there was a fella saying he never bothered with hand sanitisers in shops cause it smelled bad. people still arguing about whether masks can catch droplets. people still talking about the flu. another guy the other day wondering why we were so worried about covid when people die driving cars. that is what your dealing with.

Enter name here

Happydays2020 wrote: »

It seems to be the owners of the business are showing good judgement in trying to do the best for their business while broadly keeping in line with rules that are a little inconsistent and defy logic in many respects. Asking customers for ID showing where they live (more than what Guards typically do) will probably lead to long term reputational damage to the business.

Sorry but the health and well being of my staff is paramount to any grievances from customers. And the owners are showing no judgement at all and just trying to milk this for all it's worth. Our online business is up 320% on ytd figures, they have suffered no losses across the business and are purely trying to milk the system.

Antares35

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Dentists and vets can remain open but you'd run into this issue about 5km that they're discussing above. There's no mention of bringing your cat to the vet and usually dental =/= medical.

The government really should look at matching off the reasons for travelling against the essential services that are allowed to remain open.

Other examples are banks, drycleaners and hardwares. These can remain open but you're not supposed to go more than 5km to them.

I live rural so I pretty much have to travel 5km to get to a first set of traffic lights! Don't get me wrong I'm not inventing excuses, I supported and abided by the restrictions to now, but I've an abscess from hell on my tooth and will be getting a referral for root canal work with some specialist in the city centre

kona

Enter name here wrote: »

I run a retail chain and have had this argument all day long with the owners. If you can show me where is says you can leave the 5 kms radius to go shopping for non essential items show me. As i said to the owners today, against my judgment which was to close the shops down across the country they want to keep them open and offer click and collect. I said fine I will inform the managers to keep skeleton staff on and at all branches and offer click and collect. I will also ask customers to provide a photo ID showing that they reside within the 5km limit, if they do not I will ask managers not to serve them.

I actually cannot believe that you are left run a retail chain. Asking customers for I.D to buy what? A sambo?

PixelTrawler

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Under "Public administration, emergency services and defence" in the list of essential services is "NCT for those with existing appointments". But again you're not supposed to travel more than 5km.

Certainly seems like I'd be breaking the 5km rule and liable to a fine trying to attend.

rdwight

This has the makings of a scandal.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-backlog-forces-hse-to-skip-calls-to-thousands-of-close-contacts-1.4386512


The HSE has had the whole summer to recruit and train contact tracers from among the thousands of available volunteers and hundreds of thousands of unemployed.

They spent over €100m on reserve capacity in private hospitals (largely unused) and over €20m on largely unused reserve isolation/convalescence capacity in Citywestbut but they couldn't organised themselves to spend a relatively tiny sum on building up contract tracing capacity.




.

Cluedo Monopoly

Antares35 wrote: »

I live rural so I pretty much have to travel 5km to get to a first set of traffic lights! Don't get me wrong I'm not inventing excuses, I supported and abided by the restrictions to now, but I've an abscess from hell on my tooth and will be getting a referral for root canal work with some specialist in the city centre

I am also 10 miles from the nearest town. I think people are taking the 5km rule way too seriously. If you have a legitimate reason, no Garda is going to bother with you. I travelled up and down the county (shopping for elderly relatives) in the first lockdown and only got stopped twice. And that was in good weather

PixelTrawler

tigger123 wrote: »

Is that not the update from September 25th (at the top of the page)?

This one: https://rsa.ie/Utility/News/Alerts/Coronavirus-COVIDID--19--No-Disruption-to-RSA-Services/

Edit: soz, i see it now on Gov.ie

It's here https://www.ncts.ie/

Happydays2020

rdwight wrote: »

This has the makings of a scandal.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-backlog-forces-hse-to-skip-calls-to-thousands-of-close-contacts-1.4386512


The HSE has had the whole summer to recruit and train contact tracers from among the thousands of available volunteers and hundreds of thousands of unemployed.

They spent over €100m on reserve capacity in private hospitals (largely unused) and over €20m on largely unused reserve isolation/convalescence capacity in Citywestbut but they couldn't organised themselves to spend a relatively tiny sum on building up contract tracing capacity.




.

It does. And many of the same people in HSE who have responsibility for this are members of NPHET and recommending lock downs.

Cilldara_2000

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I am also 10 miles from the nearest town. I think people are taking the 5km rule way too seriously. If you have a legitimate reason, no Garda is going to bother with you. I travelled up and down the county (shopping for elderly relatives) in the first lockdown and only got stopped twice. And that was in good weather

I think there's a good reason why Gardaí don't want enforcement powers beyond the usual "policing by consent" chestnut. They know the guidelines are an inconsistent mess that would give you a headache trying to make sense off. What's the point in all these places and services remaining open if only people who live within 5km are allowed to go near them?

Eod100

It gets better. Newly hired contact tracers were sent zero hour contracts in error recently. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-says-zero-hour-contracts-issued-to-new-covid-19-contact-tracers-in-error-1.4381123

Quantum Erasure

PixelTrawler wrote: »

Certainly seems like I'd be breaking the 5km rule and liable to a fine trying to attend.

The 5k is just for exercise, it has no bearing on essential journeys, it was the same 6 months ago, it'll be the same in 6 months time....

Antares35

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I am also 10 miles from the nearest town. I think people are taking the 5km rule way too seriously. If you have a legitimate reason, no Garda is going to bother with you. I travelled up and down the county (shopping for elderly relatives) in the first lockdown and only got stopped twice. And that was in good weather

I got stopped a few times going to Holles St for antenatal appointments

Sure if I need to anything I'll just sling a cat into the car and say I'm going to the vet. If anyone wants to borrow one they can - return of cat on December 1st is optional

jam_mac_jam

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The 5k is just for exercise, it has no bearing on essential journeys, it was the same 6 months ago, it'll be the same in 6 months time....

And people will still be asking and arguing about it

Widdensushi

The 5km rule is to do with exercise or going for a spin, if you have a legitimate reason for travelling, shop, dentists etc it is allowed.

Cilldara_2000

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The 5k is just for exercise, it has no bearing on essential journeys, it was the same 6 months ago, it'll be the same in 6 months time....

That might be the intention but it's not what either version of the guidelines say.

The website says:
"There will be a penalty for movement outside 5 kilometres of home, with the following exceptions:

travel to and from work, where work involves providing an essential service
to attend medical appointments and collect medicines and other health products
travel to attend disability day services
for food shopping
to take school aged children to permitted training as provided for in the Exercise and Sporting section above
for vital family reasons, such as providing care to children, elderly or vulnerable people, and in particular for those who live alone but excluding social family visits
for farming purposes, that is food production or care of animals
to attend a wedding or funeral
to visit a grave"
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2dc71-level-5/#domestic-travel-restrictions

The press release says:
"Essential purposes for travel (permitted outside 5km limit)
to shop for essential items
travel to and from work, where work involves providing an essential service (see below)
to attend medical appointments and collect medicines and other health products
for vital family reasons, such as providing care to children, elderly or vulnerable people, and in particular for those who live alone, as part of an extended household but excluding social family visits
to attend a wedding or funeral
for farming purposes i.e. food production and/or care of animals
to visit a grave"
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/66269-ireland-placed-on-level-5-of-the-plan-for-living-with-covid/

PixelTrawler

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The 5k is just for exercise, it has no bearing on essential journeys, it was the same 6 months ago, it'll be the same in 6 months time....

It has every bearing because they go into detail on the grounds for greater than 5km travel and my original question or observation is that I can't match up an NCT appointment with a criteria.

Edit: as listed above, it might be an essential service but I don't work there. It's the nearest criteria I can see but it still doesn't fit

Ficheall

If you got covid, would you not tell your contacts yourself anyway? Is the difficulty in having them then arrange their own tests?

Kh1993

Will we get to a point where NPHET and it’s advice is seriously compromised by the fact that it’s make up is majority HSE?

Will HSE members on NPHET be steering decisions towards ones to get the HSE out of jail? As in, how can NPHET push for a strengthening of test and trace when it’s very members are part of the organisation responsible for it?

shmeee

PixelTrawler wrote: »

It has every bearing because they go into detail on the grounds for greater than 5km travel and my original question or observation is that I can't match up an NCT appointment with a criteria.

Edit: as listed above, it might be an essential service but I don't work there. It's the nearest criteria I can see but it still doesn't fit

It's on the NCT website, you are exempt from travel restrictions.

What's the big deal?

joe40

PixelTrawler wrote: »

It has every bearing because they go into detail on the grounds for greater than 5km travel and my original question or observation is that I can't match up an NCT appointment with a criteria.

I think if NCT venues are open because they are an essential service then it stands to reason that travel to an NCT centre is an essential journey.
They're hardly opening NCT centres for them to only serve a 5 mile radius.

maebee

Chivito550 wrote: »

Re the €500 fine, when stopped by a guard, what's to stop somebody just saying they are visiting a grave? You can visit a grave in Dingle, Donegal or the Aran Islands.

Only in Ireland.

How the F does visiting a grave come under essential travel? Ridiculous

rdwight

Happydays2020 wrote: »

It does. And many of the same people in HSE who have responsibility for this are members of NPHET and recommending lock downs.

The person who has direct responsibility is an EY management consultant who was seconded to the HSE in April specifically to ramp up testing and contact tracing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-government-to-scale-up-tracking-as-shutdown-extended-1.4226397

Presumably the HSE couldn't find anyone to do the job among the 100,000 staff it already pays.

And you're right, EY were the people who did such a good job on the Anglo Irish Bank audit.

Polar101

The_Brood wrote: »

For public transport being cut down to 25% capacity: What about those who rely on public transport to go food shopping, but could/will be turned away from buses due to lack of capacity? What do they do then? Go without food? Not everyone has a car or should be expected to have a car. In fact the push has been for more green choices. So what then, no food?

I don't think they've thought that through - in the spring lockdown the capacity was something similar, but then schools were closed as were most retail shops. This time around schools are still open, and there are more shops open - so there's going to be more passengers.

With such a limited capacity in level 5, there are going to be some essential workers left waiting for the next bus, not to mention anyone else who needs public transport.

Polar101

Antares35 wrote: »

What happens if we need to see a dentist? Are they considered essential? Or taking a pet for veterinary check? Just drive around with a cat in your car

Yes, dentists and vets are on the essential services list.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/c9158-essential-services/

BringBackMick

Let's be honest, if NPHET was in place every winter dealing with the seasonal flu and the same clout we would have restrictions every year.

They have been given too much power here and we have lost sight if reality