Will you rejoin your club for next year

djr15

To be fair it's not that simple.

A lot of people who can afford it won't join as they won't see the value for money.
Likewise a lot of people who are under financial pressure will sacrifice other things in order to join.

For me I can afford it, but would like to see a reduction in this years fee before rejoining.
If the reduction is pushed to next year I think it's an unfair way to reduce the fees as the lost golf time is this year and people's circumstances may be different next year.

That's my take on it.

finglashoop

djr15 wrote: »

To be fair it's not that simple.

A lot of people who can afford it won't join as they won't see the value for money.
Likewise a lot of people who are under financial pressure will sacrifice other things in order to join.

For me I can afford it, but would like to see a reduction in this years fee before rejoining.
If the reduction is pushed to next year I think it's an unfair way to reduce the fees as the lost golf time is this year and people's circumstances may be different next year.

That's my take on it.

agree with this although i can also see clubs point of view in reward/ incentive for people to keep up membership into future.

have to imagine will be big dropoff when other sports begin returning to action

djr15

That is a concern alright.

I think clubs have to get creative as to how they attract and retain members.

With the recent increase in interest in the game they should be reinforcing the USPs it has to offer.
Golf Ireland need to step up here also.

It's a fantastic game for a wide range of ages and abilities and should be marketed as such.

Teaches some important life lessons like discipline and acceptance like a lot of sports/hobbies can't.
Great for the new generations.

Another thing worth mentioning is I think there needs to be a reset of green fees for he high end courses.
The next 18 months will see very few American visitors.

This should be seen as an opportunity to attract our own to play some of the top rated courses on our island.

golfguy1

Another thing worth mentioning is I think there needs to be a reset of green fees for he high end courses.
The next 18 months will see very few American visitors.

This should be seen as an opportunity to attract our own to play some of the top rated courses on our island.[/quote]

and what would your reset be for high end courses?

djr15

Cheers for the pointed question.

Anything above 120 for any of the courses in Ireland is insane at the best of times.(adare and potrmarnock apart as they seem to be in a league of their own)

When you consider the average annual fees in Ireland is roughly between 700-900 some of the green fees being charged are scandalous.

Of course the theory is the yanks won't play somewhere if the green fee is less than 100 quid.
And there seems to be an attraction for them when the fee is more again.

I guess if they are willing to pay let them off.

An Irish resident fee or GUI fee may be a work around.

youcancallmeal

djr15 wrote: »

Another thing worth mentioning is I think there needs to be a reset of green fees for he high end courses.
The next 18 months will see very few American visitors.

This should be seen as an opportunity to attract our own to play some of the top rated courses on our island.

A friend works in the golf tourism industry and sorry to break it to you but there is absolutely no slow down in American visitors on the horizon. If anything it will be busier than ever this summer. I was wondering how he still had a job and he explained most bookings from last year were changed to this year(and 2022) and new bookings are coming in more than ever. I guess the Americans who can afford to come to Ireland for golf were not as affected financially from covid as low income people.

djr15

Firstly,

youcancallmeal wrote: »

sorry to break it to you

!!!!
FFS lads I'm not the grim reaper here....

I assumed restrictions would pave the way for reduced green fees for Irish golfers, looks like that won't be the case based on that reply.
Which clearly is good for the rural economy’s where a lot of the links courses are and i guess where the Americans etc. travel to.

There will still be many courses that never had the American visitor, they will depend on the annual membership being paid as it has been.
If there is a drop of in renewals, some of these will suffer greatly.

Benicetomonty

youcancallmeal wrote: »

A friend works in the golf tourism industry and sorry to break it to you but there is absolutely no slow down in American visitors on the horizon. If anything it will be busier than ever this summer. I was wondering how he still had a job and he explained most bookings from last year were changed to this year(and 2022) and new bookings are coming in more than ever. I guess the Americans who can afford to come to Ireland for golf were not as affected financially from covid as low income people.

I think it's very unlikely all of those bookings will come to pass tbh. There will be no golf played by anybody in Ireland until March or possibly April, whether youre a local or a tourist. At the rate things are going, it will be next autumn before most of us are vaccinated and that means there will continue to be restrictions on things like travel and entertainment, possibly intermittently, until then.

Restrictions on people travelling from countries like the US who have made an absolute horlicks of the pandemic arent going anywhere anytime soon. There would be a massive outcry from the public (not just golfers) if these were somehow relaxed before things are somewhat normalised for residents, and that aint going to be before the summer. A lot of those lads will be deferring until 2022 at the earliest Id wager.

GreeBo

djr15 wrote: »

To be fair it's not that simple.

It is though!
Note that I didn't say that anyone who could afford it will pay it, I said anyone who cant won't, but that I personally will.

A lot of people who can afford it won't join as they won't see the value for money.
Likewise a lot of people who are under financial pressure will sacrifice other things in order to join.

If you are under financial pressure then you cant afford it I would have said?

For me I can afford it, but would like to see a reduction in this years fee before rejoining.
If the reduction is pushed to next year I think it's an unfair way to reduce the fees as the lost golf time is this year and people's circumstances may be different next year.

That's my take on it.

I think expecting a drop in subs when there has been no drop in the clubs expenses and a huge drop in a clubs income is short-sighted and will only go one way. There aren't too many clubs who have artificially high subs imo.

Bill Ponderosa

Big difference between being able to afford it and seeing the value in membership. If you're only going to get out 20 times for the rest of the year you're looking at 60e per round depending on the yearly sub. It's a no brainer if you're not playing that much.

golfguy1

djr15 wrote: »

Cheers for the pointed question.

Anything above 120 for any of the courses in Ireland is insane at the best of times.(adare and potrmarnock apart as they seem to be in a league of their own)

When you consider the average annual fees in Ireland is roughly between 700-900 some of the green fees being charged are scandalous.

Of course the theory is the yanks won't play somewhere if the green fee is less than 100 quid.
And there seems to be an attraction for them when the fee is more again.

I guess if they are willing to pay let them off.

An Irish resident fee or GUI fee may be a work around.

if you believe a green fee rate of €120ish (a 50% drop in most cases) for the top courses should happen,
do you also want all the lower end courses to drop fees by 50%.
for example if ballybunion drops to €120 should let's say Beaufort gc drop from €40ish to €20.
smaller clubs would go out of business fast
also annual membership fees at the top clubs are in a lot of the clubs much cheaper than the lower end courses.

djr15

golfguy1 wrote: »

do you also want all the lower end courses to drop fees by 50%.
.

No.

djr15

Bill Ponderosa wrote: »

Big difference between being able to afford it and seeing the value in membership. If you're only going to get out 20 times for the rest of the year you're looking at 60e per round depending on the yearly sub. It's a no brainer if you're not playing that much.

This is actually the best way to assess it.
"value for money"

Membership in my own club is Jan to Dec - And that seems to be set in stone.
This paired with the way the lockdowns have fallen it might make it an easier decision not to re-join depending on when we get back out playing.

For several reasons my membership will only cost me a couple of hundred quid this year (vouchers etc.) so its all the one to me.

A take it or leave it approach with regards to membership fees is a slippery slope, I think.
Ok maybe not for big clubs or clubs around Dublin, but some rural clubs need a steady membership to stay alive.

In summary i think a dynamic/creative approach to membership may be needed in some cases. Sure, they depend on the small membership to keep them turning, but if some consumers feel like there should be a reduction in the annual fee they will walk away instead.

The take it or leave it approach is not something that sits well with me.

Glebee

If everyone in our club decided to give membership a miss for one year as it was not good value for money, there would be no club there to join in 2022.

bustercherry

djr15 wrote: »

Cheers for the pointed question.

Anything above 120 for any of the courses in Ireland is insane at the best of times.(adare and potrmarnock apart as they seem to be in a league of their own)

When you consider the average annual fees in Ireland is roughly between 700-900 some of the green fees being charged are scandalous.

Of course the theory is the yanks won't play somewhere if the green fee is less than 100 quid.
And there seems to be an attraction for them when the fee is more again.

I guess if they are willing to pay let them off.

An Irish resident fee or GUI fee may be a work around.

I'd love to know where these arbitrary price limits for courses come from?

There are plenty of top class courses that are priced under 120 but exceptional ones (that people travel the world over to play) repeatedly get singled out. Unfortunately the vast majority of golfers cannot justify (or afford) to play these exceptional courses but it's not as if they are short of quality alternatives.

djr15

These "arbitrary" prices are just my opinion of the limit of a reasonable rate.

Again, my opinion is, if the prices aren't adjusted without the rich American visitors, these courses will have a quiet year.
But they may be happy not adjust to which is fine.

bustercherry

djr15 wrote: »

These "arbitrary" prices are just my opinion of the limit of a reasonable rate.

Again, my opinion is, if the prices aren't adjusted without the rich American visitors, these courses will have a quiet year.
But they may be happy not adjust to which is fine.

Opinions don't pay wages or maintain courses that to the standards people expect

djr15

That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

By that logic we may as well shut down this site now seeing as a lot of what is on here is opinion.
All I am getting at is the Irish golfer will not make up the shortfall in dollars @ the high end courses unless pricing is adjusted.
And even if it is adjusted there will still be a loss compared to other years.

I don't see how that can be debated.

bustercherry

djr15 wrote: »

That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

By that logic we may as well shut down this site now seeing as a lot of what is on here is opinion.
All I am getting at is the Irish golfer will not make up the shortfall in dollars @ the high end courses unless pricing is adjusted.
And even if it is adjusted there will still be a loss compared to other years.

I don't see how that can be debated.

How? You opinion is baseless as you are stating how much you are prepared to pay for a product without knowing how much it costs to produce/maintain it. Also comparing the business model of an online discussion forum to a golf course is ludicrous.

Ultimately it will be up the courses to decide what they are willing to set their prices at. The irish golfer market can decide whether they want to play. No one is taxing golfers to maintain the courses.

djr15

bustercherry wrote: »

How? You opinion is baseless as you are stating how much you are prepared to pay for a product without knowing how much it costs to produce/maintain it. Also comparing the business model of an online discussion forum to a golf course is ludicrous.

Ultimately it will be up the courses to decide what they are willing to set their prices at. The irish golfer market can decide whether they want to play. No one is taxing golfers to maintain the courses.

I don't need to know how much a place costs to maintain before having an opinion on what I feel is a reasonable green fee.
I can have an opinion with as little or as much information as I wish, and you can disagree with that opinion if you want.
I'm not sure where you are going with your point.

All I am saying (for maybe the 3rd or 4th time) Irish golfers won’t pay the same premium as US golfers.
For sure courses can set the pricing as they wish, but for me, if the US golfers aren’t traveling these courses will be quiet.


Not sure if you are trying to wind me up to be honest.

FixdePitchmark

djr15 wrote: »

I don't need to know how much a place costs to maintain before having an opinion on what I feel is a reasonable green fee.
I can have an opinion with as little or as much information as I wish, and you can disagree with that opinion if you want.
I'm not sure where you are going with your point.

All I am saying (for maybe the 3rd or 4th time) Irish golfers won’t pay the same premium as US golfers.
For sure courses can set the pricing as they wish, but for me, if the US golfers aren’t traveling these courses will be quiet.


Not sure if you are trying to wind me up to be honest.

Sorry - what has US golfer got to do with the question of this thread.

djr15

It was a secondary point i made a few posts back but seems to have grown legs.


Other posters have engaged on the point and its not as if it is completely unrelated to the thread.

EDIT: and just to say it is related for the same reason club memberships will suffer this year as a result of covid.
Giving an opportunity for those same courses to open themselves to a new set of customers, i.e. Irish golfers.

billy3sheets

GreeBo wrote: »

It is though!
I think expecting a drop in subs when there has been no drop in the clubs expenses and a huge drop in a clubs income is short-sighted and will only go one way. There aren't too many clubs who have artificially high subs imo.

Well, surely all clubs will have reduced their expenses somewhat?

• Less course maintenance - no bunkers to rake, pitchmarks/divots to repair, less wear and tear etc
• Lower heat/light/electricity costs
• Furloughed staff (in some cases)

Also, if a club has acquired say 20% additional members, I think it's reasonable to ask for a reduction in sub offset by this additional income.

Of course it all comes down to achieving a financial balance but I think clubs can find a way to soften the blow of more costly golf for members this year. Vouchers, credit on GUI card, green-fees credits, extended membership are all ways to achieve this through what is effectively deferred income.

pinkdoubleeagle

You are also looking at a huge reduction is bar restaurant, green fee and society income in 2020 that needs to be accounted for

Ollieboy

pinkdoubleeagle wrote: »

You are also looking at a huge reduction is bar restaurant, green fee and society income in 2020 that needs to be accounted for

The drop in some revenue streams and the uncertainty is the major issue for clubs and the lack of financial supports.

It’s funny, people value membership on this forum a lot by the cost per round, but when the club are forced to closed a lot seem to move the goal posts.

In our club, members played 65% more rounds then 2019 even though we were closed for 3 months and I expect it to be similar figures if not higher in 2021. So this shows the true value members got, so why does clubs need to do rebates?

As for the conversation about reduce costs, most cost in most clubs is machinery, materials for course and labour. We’ve not reduced any of this cost during this lockdown and can’t really without damaging our product.

The clubhouse will be cheaper to run and savings on rates is the big saver here, but we were at full membership at the start of COVID so never got the bounce in new income and have not increase the rates for full membership.

GreeBo

billy3sheets wrote: »

Well, surely all clubs will have reduced their expenses somewhat?

• Less course maintenance - no bunkers to rake, pitchmarks/divots to repair, less wear and tear etc
• Lower heat/light/electricity costs
• Furloughed staff (in some cases)

Also, if a club has acquired say 20% additional members, I think it's reasonable to ask for a reduction in sub offset by this additional income.

Of course it all comes down to achieving a financial balance but I think clubs can find a way to soften the blow of more costly golf for members this year. Vouchers, credit on GUI card, green-fees credits, extended membership are all ways to achieve this through what is effectively deferred income.

Bunkers are still being raked, thats what stops weeds etc from growing in them, its not just to make them be smooth/even.
I would say the vast majority of the costs are still in place (machinery maintenance/depreciation, course work, etc)
Sure you will have lower clubhouse costs, but I dont believe they are that significant in the scheme of things.

Again, some clubs will have furloughed staff but many havent.

Its only reasonable to look for a reduction if the club was in a sound financial position before those new members arrived. You also have to see how much money that actually generated. Otherwise you risk putting yourself right back into the same precarious financial position.

Commercial clubs might be able to soften the blow, but for a members club you are just robbing peter to pay paul, softening the blow means bigger and longer overdrafts which means increased subs or outings next year.

GreeBo

Ollieboy wrote: »

The drop in some revenue streams and the uncertainty is the major issue for clubs and the lack of financial supports.

It’s funny, people value membership on this forum a lot by the cost per round, but when the club are forced to closed a lot seem to move the goal posts.

In our club, members played 65% more rounds then 2019 even though we were closed for 3 months and I expect it to be similar figures if not higher in 2021. So this shows the true value members got, so why does clubs need to do rebates?

As for the conversation about reduce costs, most cost in most clubs is machinery, materials for course and labour. We’ve not reduced any of this cost during this lockdown and can’t really without damaging our product.

The clubhouse will be cheaper to run and savings on rates is the big saver here, but we were at full membership at the start of COVID so never got the bounce in new income and have not increase the rates for full membership.

Great point.
For many months our course was jammed (on 2 x 12 holes) to the point where getting out was a problem.
that has never been the case in any other year.

Having people working from home has dropped the cost per round significantly.

billy3sheets

Ollieboy wrote: »

The drop in some revenue streams and the uncertainty is the major issue for clubs and the lack of financial supports.

It’s funny, people value membership on this forum a lot by the cost per round, but when the club are forced to closed a lot seem to move the goal posts.

In our club, members played 65% more rounds then 2019 even though we were closed for 3 months and I expect it to be similar figures if not higher in 2021. So this shows the true value members got, so why does clubs need to do rebates?

As for the conversation about reduce costs, most cost in most clubs is machinery, materials for course and labour. We’ve not reduced any of this cost during this lockdown and can’t really without damaging our product.

The clubhouse will be cheaper to run and savings on rates is the big saver here, but we were at full membership at the start of COVID so never got the bounce in new income and have not increase the rates for full membership.

Cost-per-round is definitely a valid value metric. It's not the only one. I don't get your point about moving goal-posts?

Regarding members played 65% more rounds than 2019 - how did you calculate this? Is it 65% more rounds overall were played? I would imagine this is not equally distributed? Like some members played 300% more golf because they were off work while others played 60% of their normal rounds because the course was closed. This is certainly the case among my golf buddies.

blue note

I remember hearing that members played more in 2020 than 2019, even though the course was unavailable to them for many weeks. I was surprised to hear it, but when I thought about it of course it's true.

Whether courses should give something back to their members largely depends on whether or not they can afford it. It's all well and good to say that the course was available to me less, therefore I should get money back. But at the same time, you probably didn't play it less. So you can't really argue you didn't get your moneys worth. And courses will often not be open due to weather. Should members get a few extra days for free the following year?

If clubs can afford it then I think they probably should give something back, as a token reward for the member loyalty. But I wouldn't be expecting a big reduction in my membership fees or anything.

pinkdoubleeagle

GreeBo wrote: »

Great point.
For many months our course was jammed (on 2 x 12 holes) to the point where getting out was a problem.
that has never been the case in any other year.

Having people working from home has dropped the cost per round significantly.

What is your club doing to combat this when the club reopens in Spring and demand is high.

My club has decided to cut down on society bookings for the forseeable future, Increase the subs to account for the lost society revenue and free up the course for the members