European Super League - plans announced

Zebra3

https://news.sky.com/story/top-english-clubs-in-bombshell-talks-to-join-european-premier-league-12109175

News breaking in the last hour or so.

FIFA backed makes it very serious.

Jimbob1977

If there are c. 30 European matches to play, does that mean the clubs abandon their domestic leagues?

Agent Coulson

Part two of the Project Big Picture that the top clubs put to the Premier League.

You turned us down that's fine we are off to make our money else where however we are still open Project Big Picture happening.

Hulk Hands

A 30 game Champions League with 18 teams. Clubs to remain in their domestic leagues also. Looks class to be fair.

There'll be serious butt-hurt over it in the UK. It's not good for their local game but I can't see why people here should be overly bothered

Jimbob1977

Hulk Hands wrote: »

A 30 game Champions League with 18 teams. Clubs to remain in their domestic leagues also. Looks class to be fair.

There'll be serious butt-hurt over it in the UK. It's not good for their local game but I can't see why people here should be overly bothered

That would be 70 games a season minimum.

Hulk Hands

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

That would be 70 games a season minimum.

I'm guessing the clubs involved would want a restructured league or they wouldn't take part. Cup competitions probably knocked on the head

cj maxx

A 30 team Europe league. There will be no promotion to it or relegation from it is my guess , like the nfl and mls. The big teams that founded it are guaranteed money. The money will collapse out of the epl as it becomes completely unimportant, only as a regional league.

Sirsok

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I'm guessing the clubs involved would want a restructured league or they wouldn't take part. Cup competitions probably knocked on the head

Wasnt that part of project big picture. Get rid of the league come. And reduce premier league by four games.

Soccer is really becoming something I dont particulary like anymore (all though tbat could be just from supporting United.)

Richard Hillman

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

That would be 70 games a season minimum.

They could conference it so that games of just say United v Liverpool will count for both domestic and European leagues. If there are 6 PL Clubs you'll have 10 fixtures for each team that would double up as PL and European games.

Zebra3

Hulk Hands wrote: »

A 30 game Champions League with 18 teams. Clubs to remain in their domestic leagues also. Looks class to be fair.

There'll be serious butt-hurt over it in the UK. It's not good for their local game but I can't see why people here should be overly bothered

Irish clubs take part in UEFA club competitions.

Apart from the financial benefit it brings, there is the prestige and the fact that "we" are still a small part of the bigger picture and can dream of taking part in some form. Like Dundalk atm in the EL.

This looks like it would kill that off.

Hulk Hands

Zebra3 wrote: »

Irish clubs take part in UEFA club competitions.

Apart from the financial benefit it brings, there is the prestige and the fact that "we" are still a small part of the bigger picture and can dream of taking part in some form. Like Dundalk atm in the EL.

This looks like it would kill that off.

I don't think it'll affect them directly as it'll probably mean a flagship UEFA competition comprising of all the clubs left adrift. But fair point, probably doesn't help

Hodors Appletart

this is a great idea

been long an ambition of mine to see something like this for the best clubs

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Part two of the Project Big Picture that the top clubs put to the Premier League.

You turned us down that's fine we are off to make our money else where however we are still open Project Big Picture happening.

Are Liverpool and Man Utd officially owning this one and effectively saying "you didn't go with our attempt to screw you last week, so we're gonna screw you this way instead"?

Or is that your interpretation?

Agent Coulson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are Liverpool officially saying "you didn't go with our attempt to screw you last week, so we're gonna screw you this way instead"?

Or is that your interpretation?

For a poster who say he has no interest you really do have a fixation with Liverpool.

Oh edit I see now you have amended your original post and added Man U lol

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

For a poster who say he has no interest you really do have a fixation with Liverpool.

Oh edit I see now you have added Man U lol

I presume you are a Livepool fan and sensitive to criticism.

Anyway, the thread is not about me. And you didn't answer my question. Are Liverpool and Man Utd owning this one or is that your interpretation.

Agent Coulson

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume you are a Livepool fan and sensitive to criticism.

Anyway, the thread is not about me. And you didn't answer my question. Are Liverpool and Man Utd owning this one or is that your interpretation.

You haven't given your own opinion on it? Which is??

intellectual dosser

Aside from money, is there any other motivation to do this?

Its us that ends up paying for it. Would be the death of football.

Agent Coulson

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Aside from money, is there any other motivation to do this?

Its us that ends up paying for it. Would be the death of football.

We are paying for it for nearly the last 30 years since football went behind paywalls it hasn’t died yet.

And it won’t die behind a different paywall

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

You haven't given your own opinion on it? Which is??

My opinion on your claim that the owners are acting vindictively because their last plan was rejected?

I think you could well be correct. But I suspect their primary motivation is greed rather than vindictiveness.

Agent Coulson

Deleted User wrote: »

My opinion on your claim that the owners are acting vindictively because their last plan was rejected?

I think you could well be correct. But I suspect their primary motivation is greed rather than vindictiveness.

An since when has football not been about greed?

The day Sky took control of English football it has only been about greed and on a massive scale about making as much money as possible.

intellectual dosser

Agent Coulson wrote: »

We are paying for it for nearly the last 30 years since football went behind paywalls it hasn’t died yet.

And it won’t die behind a different paywall

It'll be a slow death to those leagues and teams outside of this European League.

The details are light right now, there would need to be some funneling of funds back to domestic clubs for it to have any chance of being good for the game.

titan18

UEFA would fight this tooth and nail unless they were cut in to it. It'd be the death of them if they lost the money from CL football so unless there's someway FIFA and the clubs are getting them onside, it's going to be a nightmare.

breezy1985

Doesn't this pop up anytime big clubs don't get what they want domestically. Its an old ploy going back at least to Berlusconi in the 90s.

If it was to happen though I hope it is alongside a European cup that is still open to everyone. It might be good for the rest of England to ditch the super clubs so that the chasers can get back to living within their means. I would take an affordable day out at my div 3 club over watching them price me out only to go bust chasing the Prem dream

Agent Coulson

intellectual dosser wrote: »

It'll be a slow death to those leagues and teams outside of this European League.

The details are light right now, there would need to be some funneling of funds back to domestic clubs for it to have any chance of being good for the game.

Football since it started going behind the paywalls 30 years ago has just tuned into one big Pyramid Scheme and they always collapse, Very few if any of the big teams are clear of debt themselves and something like a European Super League just keeps them afloat while the money comes in so it doesn't get filtered down the Pyramid.

Zebra3

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I don't think it'll affect them directly as it'll probably mean a flagship UEFA competition comprising of all the clubs left adrift. But fair point, probably doesn't help

It may well effect the FAI who get payments from UEFA.

Morrison J

Can't believe people are lapping this nonsense up. All stems from the American owners who want the soul taken out of football.

Going to be extremely NFL. Imagine being a fan of Liverpool or Man Utd wanting to go home and away? It'll get a bit taxing to take 2 days off work to travel over for a midweek game, with the money involved, over the course of the season for the same clubs every year. Why would they want that to get to play Benfica or Porto I don't know.

Let the big clubs off so if they want it so bad. The Premier League might actually be better off with proper reform and some genuine competitive balance. When Man Utd finish close to the bottom of the Euro Super League and those big commerical deals start slipping away in 10 years there'll be a lot of regrets. The novelty will wear off awful quick.

sabat

No AC Milan or Ajax but yes to Man City and Spurs...

Fromvert

Is change in the structure of football competitions ever met without calls of 'death of football'?

Royale with Cheese

Morrison J wrote: »

Let the big clubs off so if they want it so bad. The Premier League might actually be better off with proper reform and some genuine competitive balance. When Man Utd finish close to the bottom of the Euro Super League and those big commerical deals start slipping away in 10 years there'll be a lot of regrets. The novelty will wear off awful quick.

This definitely crossed my mind. You'll have 18 teams that are used to competing near the top, all of a sudden three quarters of them aren't any more. Might get old very quickly for some clubs. Also agree about the premier league, taking the massive sums of money out of the league might actually make it more interesting. It would probably lose most of its international following however.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My opinion on your claim that the owners are acting vindictively because their last plan was rejected?

You think they just came up with this in the past week?...

This is something that's been going on for a while in the background I'd imagine

~Rebel~

It mostly just sounds like a worse Champions League... Turning the group stage of the CL into a whole league before you finally eventually kick out the chaff and get into the interesting stuff of knockout football.

TheCitizen

sabat wrote: »

No AC Milan or Ajax but yes to Man City and Spurs...

Nothing stays the same forever and things always change but if it’s a league with no relegation or promotion possible into it, it’s the death of football as we know it. It’ll destroy the professional game at so many levels in so many countries. There has to be the possibility for a club to access this league even if it’s a remote possibility. If this league is detached from the rest of football it will destroy football

listermint

Hulk Hands wrote: »

A 30 game Champions League with 18 teams. Clubs to remain in their domestic leagues also. Looks class to be fair.

There'll be serious butt-hurt over it in the UK. It's not good for their local game but I can't see why people here should be overly bothered

I think you mean it sounds the opposite to class. It sounds ****. It sounds like the Americanisation of European football.

Ball sacks for everyone bar the few owners.

Greed.

Money

Greed.

You'd know by it that it stinks it's backed by a walls street bank.

Morrison J

I actually think the likes of Leeds, Everton, Newcastle etc would kind of win in this situation. It's the fans of Many Utd that'd lose out big time. Being a bad team in a league with no relegation would be the dullest thing ever. Most can probably afford to go to one or two away games a year max? Potentially eventually resign their FA affiliation as part of it so can't play in domestic cup competitions either. Sounds very grim.

Think most fans of a team in the Super League would likely adopt a lower league local team that they can actually follow home and away too.

Fans of Man Utd and Liverpool seem to have no idea how bad of an idea this is for them but give it a couple of seasons max and it's dawn on them pretty quick.

CSF

Fromvert wrote: »

Is change in the structure of football competitions ever met without calls of 'death of football'?

Depends on the reason for the restructuring really, doesn’t it?

Some are designed just to make things better. And others are primarily designed to create money.

listermint

Morrison J wrote: »

I actually think the likes of Leeds, Everton, Newcastle etc would kind of win in this situation. It's the fans of Many Utd that'd lose out big time. Being a bad team in a league with no relegation would be the dullest thing ever. Most can probably afford to go to one or two away games a year max? Potentially eventually resign their FA affiliation as part of it so can't play in domestic cup competitions either. Sounds very grim.

Think most fans of a team in the Super League would likely adopt a lower league local team that they can actually follow home and away too.

Fans of Man Utd and Liverpool seem to have no idea how bad of an idea this is for them but give it a couple of seasons max and it's dawn on them pretty quick.

I'd have to realistically imagine the only people who'd be excited about a merry go round like this are children and teenagers.

Mitch Connor

new discussion for the CL are in process at the moment.
threat of clubs breaking away from the CL....

Doesn't this happen every time?

I can see why United would be interested, wouldn't even need to worry about finishing 4th anymore. Glazers can rake it in finishing 17th.

HalloweenJack

For me, there has to be some kind of relegation/promotion in order to get UEFA and the leagues onside. Otherwise, it's just an elite tournament for the teams with the most money. What kind of criteria would be used to decide the teams?

If they try and put it on top of the exisiting leagues and European competitions, watch as the Super League clubs focus their efforts on the Super League as that is where the big bucks will be. I will also tire quickly of watching the same teams playing each other again and again.

I would have no interest in this happening. Its just taking the game further away from fans and turning more and more into another form of mainstream entertainment (the awful wrestling phrase 'sports entertainment' pops into my head).

Give me football where clubs play in competitions based on merit not how deep their pockets are.*

* I'm aware it's the richer clubs that make it to the top but even then there's still the chance that poorer clubs can mix it up with them. Look at Ferencvaros qualifying for the CL and getting to play Juve and Barca or Slavia Prague doing the same thing the last few years. That's great to see. All a Super League does is pop these teams into a sealed bubble.

Fr Tod Umptious

European Super League talk comes about every so often.
How valid this one is I don't know.

But I'm going to guess that the COVID crisis has focused the minds of the top clubs.
Revenues from domestic leagues could be in jeopardy due to lack of crowds and a potentially reduced TV contract in the future.

So a brand new league, with brand new media contract, with lots of hype may be the way they can increase revenues further

Richard Hillman

Fromvert wrote: »

Is change in the structure of football competitions ever met without calls of 'death of football'?

Every few weeks the death of football is announced. VAR, Offsides, the new handball law.

The reality is a Super League would be the most watched sports league in the world. People will go to games, people will pay TV subscriptions, advertisers will be jumping to get involved, players will be creaming themselves to get involved with the American Sports style salaries.

CSF

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Every few weeks the death of football is announced. VAR, Offsides, the new handball law.

The reality is a Super League would be the most watched sports league in the world. People will go to games, people will pay TV subscriptions, advertisers will be jumping to get involved, players will be creaming themselves to get involved with the American Sports style salaries.

This isn't really the same as a penalty or a milimetre offside though. Those clubs have fans who follow them up and down the country. Trying to travel to France, Germany, Spain and Portugal every 2nd week just so billionaires can make some more billions doesn't seem like quite as tedious a criticism.

Fromvert

CSF wrote: »

This isn't really the same as a penalty or a milimetre offside though. Those clubs have fans who follow them up and down the country. Trying to travel to France, Germany, Spain and Portugal every 2nd week just so billionaires can make some more billions doesn't seem like quite as tedious a criticism.

They'll still be doing that under this proposal, there's just more games between the big European teams with the teams involved likely refusing to play in the League cup and wanting a reduced PL to accommodate the extra games.

This is FIFA's play to get a slice of the money UEFA make. They where already trying to push ahead with an expanded World Club Cup next summer but that is likely shelved for now.

Currently the big teams have at least 3 away European games with a max of 7. This will just mean there's now a guarantee of about 10 European away games instead of heading off to Barnsley in the League Cup or West Brom in the PL along with additional away days to United, Liverpool, Chelsea, City etc.

CSF

Fromvert wrote: »

They'll still be doing that under this proposal, there's just more games between the big European teams with the teams involved likely refusing to play in the League cup and wanting a reduced PL to accommodate the extra games.

This is FIFA's play to get a slice of the money UEFA make. They where already trying to push ahead with an expanded World Club Cup next summer but that is likely shelved for now.

Currently the big teams have at least 3 away European games with a max of 7. This will just mean there's now 12-15 European away games instead of heading off to Barnsley in the League Cup or West Brom in the PL.

I’m struggling to reach the maths here. A strong champions league team plays on average about 8-10 games. I don’t see how the League Cup and cutting 2 teams out of the Premier League is going to give them a 30 (possibly more) game season.

But it’s also still a problem if teams are guaranteed entry to the competition without qualifying.

All these people supporting billionaires right to gouge open football to make some more money, realise that these lads aren’t going to give them a cut of it, right?

Mitch Connor

CSF wrote: »

This isn't really the same as a penalty or a milimetre offside though. Those clubs have fans who follow them up and down the country. Trying to travel to France, Germany, Spain and Portugal every 2nd week just so billionaires can make some more billions doesn't seem like quite as tedious a criticism.

Its a break from Uefa comps, not leagues, as I understand it.

ie. United would play domestically as they do, but also in this instead of the Europa League (CL every so often)

Mr.Nice Guy

Greed worked its way into the game around thirty years ago and shaped what it is today, prioritizing clout over competitiveness. The same fans shouting 'the death of football' probably celebrate when their team finishes fourth. Worth remembering the European Cup morphed from a tournament that was once about pitting the continent's champions against one another, to one where billionaire-owned clubs battle it out for profits, and, occasionally, a trophy.

They've already pretty much done a Super League with the Champions League, turning it into a closed shop. Was it last season where all of the final 16 teams were from the top 5 leagues? A few years back Ajax having their run was seen as a surprise, and that's one of the great historic clubs. Whenever one of these surprise clubs makes a run to the latter stages, they tend to have their players picked off by the bigger ones, effectively putting them back in their lane.

The soul of football was sucked out long ago and won't be coming back. The international game could have had a chance of keeping it, but FIFA have done their best to let money ruin that as well with Qatar, 48-team-tournaments in 2026 etc. Sadly, to remain a football fan nowadays means holding your nose for all the bullsh*t.

DM_7

This appears to be investors looking into setting up a league. Offering money to fund the start up and then expecting to be paid back over time. That would be a very short sighted choice by the clubs and make no sense when they are currently getting guaranteed money from their leagues due to their strength and from UEFA for just getting to the group stages.

If clubs were approached by a group of investors talking about offering big money to join their league they will appear interested. It provides leverage in discussion with UEFA and anyone else about getting more money through existing structures.

Major European clubs have the safety net of their relative size and strength within their own leagues to fall back on in times of less success and struggles.

Take Manchester United out of the Premier League where they were third last season and put them in with 17 other European sides they might finish mid table (if enough weaker sides are included).

This would damage the clubs appeal in terms of fans going to games (bad time for that example), commercial appeal, appeal to the audience abroad.

A few years of that and Manchester United v Inter Milan for example (as Europa League sides last year) could be the equivalent of WBA v Burnely in terms of appeal to the general audience.

I think the Europa League revenue and appeal provides evidence to back that up also. A Chelsea v Arsenal final barely made a ripple in terms of coverage and generated about 30% of the Revenue for the clubs that Liverpool got for winning the Champions League.

I don't see how it adds up to a logical solution. The number of additional games would mean having two first team squads or one competition not getting taken seriously which would damage domestic leagues and the new European league.

CSF

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Its a break from Uefa comps, not leagues, as I understand it.

ie. United would play domestically as they do, but also in this instead of the Europa League (CL every so often)

I'd have no problem with a revamped format for the Champions League, as long as it is qualified for on merit. If Man United continue to stink the place out, they should not qualify for Europe. If Liverpool struggle without Van Dijk etc. On the flip side if there is an Everton or an Aston Villa that push on and perform over the course of a season they have to get in.


Have zero problem with changing the format of things but not simply finding ways for billionaires to ringfence a few more billion. Literally none of us benefit from stuff like this so we should all be against it really. Even the fans of the clubs don't benefit from football clubs being used as profit cows. Look at United and the Glazers.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Fromvert

CSF wrote: »

I’m struggling to reach the maths here. A strong champions league team plays on average about 8-10 games. I don’t see how the League Cup and cutting 2 teams out of the Premier League is going to give them a 30 (possibly more) game season.

But it’s also still a problem if teams are guaranteed entry to the competition without qualifying.

All these people supporting billionaires right to gouge open football to make some more money, realise that these lads aren’t going to give them a cut of it, right?

Who knows what the actual format would be, you may not play everyone involved in the league (similar to the NFL). They may abandon being in the FA Cup too, if FIFA get their slice we may see a reduction in friendlies or the teams involved will have the ability to keep their players from playing friendlies. Squads will get bigger.

Football at the top is run by billionaires, do I like it? No but top level football being anything but a vehicle to make money began decades ago. I still watch the current iteration when I get nothing but entertainment from it, this would be more of the same.

CSF

Fromvert wrote: »

Who knows what the actual format would be, you may not play everyone involved in the league (similar to the NFL). They may abandon being in the FA Cup too, if FIFA get their slice we may see a reduction in friendlies or the teams involved will have the ability to keep their players from playing friendlies. Squads will get bigger.

Football at the top is run by billionaires, do I like it? No but top level football being anything but a vehicle to make money began decades ago. I still watch the current iteration when I get nothing but entertainment from it, this would be more of the same.

We’re not talking about people stopping watching football though. We’re also not talking about people being naive enough to think that football has been shaped around money for some time now.

We’re just talking about lads being of the opinion that this kind of thing is ok.

Richard Hillman

CSF wrote: »

This isn't really the same as a penalty or a milimetre offside though. Those clubs have fans who follow them up and down the country. Trying to travel to France, Germany, Spain and Portugal every 2nd week just so billionaires can make some more billions doesn't seem like quite as tedious a criticism.

Travelling away to games regularly isn't really a big thing outside of UK and Ireland. I also think that travelling to pretty much every away game is an unhealthy relationship with a club. A lot of these people have families too. Would they not just put their kids into private school with the money instead or something?

They can pick and choose which games they can go to. And the trips would be a lot more exotic. It might even start to address Toxic Fan Culture.