European Super League - plans announced

TheCitizen

Dr Bolouswki wrote: »

My understanding is the founding 15 are always in the league. The additional 5 slots are for (presumably) a rating of the 5 other best teams from domestic leagues - either the BIG 5 leagues, or a coefficient based on all European leagues. These 5 places change annually.

I'm a City supporter (for now) and am disgusted by this. No team deserves a permanent seat at a table. Set up a new league for sure, but no relegation for founding members? Boll0x. A glorified NFL.

Ridiculous set up. Not acceptable and they and anyone who supports it should be shunned by the world of soccer. Make sure it flops.

beggars_bush

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Man Utd fan here, absolutely devastated by last night’s events. Couldn’t sleep that well because of it. We’ve got some seriously selfish pricks in fifa and UEFA but the owners of these 12 clubs are worse than anyone. It will be interesting to get the managers’ views on this breaking news. For sure Klopp won’t hold back as he’s a man of the people and he’s never one to sit on the fence. Luckily, Liverpool are playing tonight so we won’t have to wait too long for some reaction..

this gave me a laugh. As if klopp cares

eh i dunno

So if it goes ahead does one team from England qualify for the super league every year? So you exclude the 6 super league teams and the other 14 just fight for one spot? So the big 6 have no incentive to win games because they are guaranteed entry anyway? What a farce

Agent Coulson

The new Champions League format is due to be officially announced today by UEFA as well so the timing of the Super League announcement yesterday was timed for this.

Richard Hillman

Degag wrote: »

There is something a bit disingenuous about UEFA and FIFA being white knights here when they are just corrupt money-hungry parasites themselves.

I'm seeing a lot about the 2 over the last 24 hours. And yes they have corrupt individuals that pocket money for themselves (which is pocket change on the grand scale) but UEFA/FIFA accumulate cash to distribute to the associations, to distribute to their own leagues, clubs and football development. They are not private organisations with individual shareholders that pocket the profits.

This stuff effects the likes of Ireland, Moldova, Albania etc more than anyone

JacksonHeightsOwn

I'd be very suprised if it actually materialised to be honest.

Is just a bargaining ply by the biggest clubs to get more money, plain and simple.

And on the off chance it does actually go ahead, we'll all sit down on our couches, midweek, with a few cans and watch the games like good little boys.

Sure what's the alternative, you watch an "elite tournament" that's contested by the likes of Watford or Bournemouth.......

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

this gave me a laugh. As if klopp cares

Why wouldn't he care?

I'd say all football people care.

Kirby

The clubs have the power. They let organizations such as UEFA pretend they are in charge but it's just for show. Optics.

Make no mistake, this is happening. It will go ahead. The idea of docking points or booting these clubs from the Premier League is a non-starter because these big clubs are the main reason for the tv deals in the first place. If the premier league doesn't have the so-called "big six" in them......tv deals get canceled and everyone involved loses billions. The premier league won't risk it happening.

The idea of players from these clubs being banned from the world cup also won't happen for the exact same reason. FIFA won't risk their cash cow.

So banning or point deductions won't happen.

The domestic league will carry on as normal, the league cup will be culled, The FA cup will remove replays and the midweek games will be the new European super league fixtures instead.

The champions league can't survive as the zenith of European football without these clubs. It'll be treated like the europa league is right now. A nice tournament for second tier clubs but the money and prestige will belong to the new league instead.

The big holdouts like PSG and Bayern and the like will get on board once they realise the train is leaving without them. They won't want to be in the B tier competition. There will be lawsuits galore that will rumble on for years but it won't stop anything.

The only thing that will stop this is if one or two of the big teams blink from fan backlash........and I just can't see it happening. They prepared for this. They knew the backlash was coming. They will ride it out.

recyclops

JacksonHeightsOwn wrote: »

I'd be very suprised if it actually materialised to be honest.

Is just a bargaining ply by the biggest clubs to get more money, plain and simple.

And on the off chance it does actually go ahead, we'll all sit down on our couches, midweek, with a few cans and watch the games like good little boys.

Sure what's the alternative, you watch an "elite tournament" that's contested by the likes of Watford or Bournemouth.......

The alternative is to watch a sporting competition where results matter. As fans of a sport of course you want to watch the best players but will they give it their best come November when domestically they can't win the league or in Europe they haven't a hope.

Nope they will send their agents out on a circus tour peddling then to the highest bidder as 12 year olds get giddy on twitter that new superstar player might decide they can grace them with their presence for 3 months a year.

****in farcical.

GiftofGab

eh i dunno wrote: »

So if it goes ahead does one team from England qualify for the super league every year? So you exclude the 6 super league teams and the other 14 just fight for one spot? So the big 6 have no incentive to win games because they are guaranteed entry anyway? What a farce

It can give clubs an incentive to create low cost squads, finish last and just cash in on the super league each year. It could be more profitable for them to create a low cost squad then invest in a potentiality winning team only to miss out and finish 4th. Absolutely ridiculous. Failure should be punished.

JacksonHeightsOwn

recyclops wrote: »

The alternative is to watch a sporting competition where results matter. As fans of a sport of course you want to watch the best players but will they give it their best come November when domestically they can't win the league or in Europe they haven't a hope.

Nope they will send their agents out on a circus tour peddling then to the highest bidder as 12 year olds get giddy on twitter that new superstar player might decide they can grace them with their presence for 3 months a year.

****in farcical.

It may be farcical, but we'll all still watch it.

GiftofGab

JacksonHeightsOwn wrote: »

It may be farcical, but we'll all still watch it.

I won't. I'll actively boycott it.

recyclops

JacksonHeightsOwn wrote: »

It may be farcical, but we'll all still watch it.

But would you rathe watch a dead rubber glorified friendly just because shiny players are on a pitch or would you rather watch a game that potentially has an impact on the future bearings of both clubs.

Kirby

recyclops wrote: »

But would you rather watch a dead rubber glorified friendly just because shiny players are on a pitch or would you rather watch a game that potentially has an impact on the future bearings of both clubs.

People always talk about boycotting. It rarely materializes.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Football is ALL.about winning and losing. About promotion and relegation. It means games have meaning.

12 clubs with nothing to play for every year in this super leauge. Yeah that'll be amazing...

JacksonHeightsOwn

recyclops wrote: »

But would you rathe watch a dead rubber glorified friendly just because shiny players are on a pitch or would you rather watch a game that potentially has an impact on the future bearings of both clubs.

Regardless of it being a dead rubber, ill tell you one thing, I wont be sitting down to watch Huddersfield or some other Neil Warnock managed team, all because there's a threat of relegation in the result.

I'll tune in to watch the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, lewandowski etc......

I don't agree with it by the way, but what's the alternative......

recyclops

Kirby wrote: »

People always talk about boycotting. It rarely materializes.

I haven't mentioned boycotting, I was more asking what fans of a sport would rather.

A league of glorified friendlies that " Sources close to several clubs say their research shows that younger supporters want to see more games between the world’s most famous clubs and players and the clubs are responding to the trends." Or matches where results matter?

Big Ears

Kirby wrote: »

People always talk about boycotting. It rarely materializes.

To be fair we're on new ground here, never before has there been a European "Super League" and the backlash could be far and beyond anything we've seen before.

If they can't get any of the top German or French sides involved, and it stays with just 12 teams, it could definitely fail.
Not initially, the TV money and sponsorships will be huge.
But when they're up for renewal, if the second TV deal is only 65-70% of the first one, based off them not attracting the viewership they expect, the league could fold overnight !

What then, teams looking to rejoin the football league at the bottom rung of the ladder ?

Big Ears

Big Ears wrote: »

To be fair we're on new ground here, never before has there been a European "Super League" and the backlash could be far and beyond anything we've seen before.

If they can't get any of the top German or French sides involved, and it stays with just 12 teams, it could definitely fail.
Not initially, the TV money and sponsorships will be huge.
But when they're up for renewal, if the second TV deal is only 65-70% of the first one, based off them not attracting the viewership they expect, the league could fold overnight !

What then, teams looking to rejoin the football league at the bottom rung of the ladder ?

It's 12+3 teams so 15 initially. Not sure of the other 3 yet.

lawred2

So these clubs expect us to believe that their plan is to play in two concurrent twenty team leagues?

So 76 games a season!?

lol

Tom Mann Centuria

recyclops wrote: »

I haven't mentioned boycotting, I was more asking what fans of a sport would rather.

A league of glorified friendlies that " Sources close to several clubs say their research shows that younger supporters want to see more games between the world’s most famous clubs and players and the clubs are responding to the trends." Or matches where results matter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqk_fN0NRgg

is_that_so

JacksonHeightsOwn wrote: »

Regardless of it being a dead rubber, ill tell you one thing, I wont be sitting down to watch Huddersfield or some other Neil Warnock managed team, all because there's a threat of relegation in the result.

I'll tune in to watch the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, lewandowski etc......

I don't agree with it by the way, but what's the alternative......

Why does there need to be an alternative? We already have leagues and UEFA competitions where teams get in on merit. This is entirely opportunistic greed.

Kirby

recyclops wrote: »

I haven't mentioned boycotting, I was more asking what fans of a sport would rather.

You might not be mentioning but plenty of people are. People are emotional and angry with plenty of "I'm ashamed to be an X fan" "I'll never support Y club again!"

But when the dust settles, the type of people who love football and love following their clubs won't abandon it. When match day 1 of this new super league rolls around and Liverpool are playing Barcelona and United are playing Madrid..........they will tune in and watch. Sky and BT will divy up the rights like they always do and football will carry on.

This is just the reality of the situation.

TheCitizen

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yea that's why I think all the outrage here from the fans of top 6 EPL teams is laughable.

Football has been corrupted by big money for years. UEFA asleep at the wheel did nothing to stop the EPL juggernaut and didn’t apply their FFP guidelines. EPL fans outrage in that context does appear hypocritical but this is different. A league where 15 are guaranteed the big money without worry of relegation and 5 others scrapping annually to get in. An absolute shambles.

patmac

Kirby wrote: »

The clubs have the power. They let organizations such as UEFA pretend they are in charge but it's just for show. Optics.

Make no mistake, this is happening. It will go ahead. The idea of docking points or booting these clubs from the Premier League is a non-starter because these big clubs are the main reason for the tv deals in the first place. If the premier league doesn't have the so-called "big six" in them......tv deals get canceled and everyone involved loses billions. The premier league won't risk it happening.

The idea of players from these clubs being banned from the world cup also won't happen for the exact same reason. FIFA won't risk their cash cow.

So banning or point deductions won't happen.

The domestic league will carry on as normal, the league cup will be culled, The FA cup will remove replays and the midweek games will be the new European super league fixtures instead.

The champions league can't survive as the zenith of European football without these clubs. It'll be treated like the europa league is right now. A nice tournament for second tier clubs but the money and prestige will belong to the new league instead.

The big holdouts like PSG and Bayern and the like will get on board once they realise the train is leaving without them. They won't want to be in the B tier competition. There will be lawsuits galore that will rumble on for years but it won't stop anything.

The only thing that will stop this is if one or two of the big teams blink from fan backlash........and I just can't see it happening. They prepared for this. They knew the backlash was coming. They will ride it out.

I have a horrible feeling you will be proved correct unfortunately. Remember the Asian market won’t give two hoots about fans boycotting this, and that’s where the money is.

patmac

lawred2 wrote: »

So these clubs expect us to believe that their plan is to play in two concurrent twenty team leagues?

So 76 games a season!?

lol

2 squads a la Man City?
The first manager that mentions player fatigue and too many games should be publicly flogged.

marvin80

Kirby wrote: »

You might not be mentioning but plenty of people are. People are emotional and angry with plenty of "I'm ashamed to be an X fan" "I'll never support Y club again!"

But when the dust settles, the type of people who love football and love following their clubs won't abandon it. When match day 1 of this new super league rolls around and Liverpool are playing Barcelona and United are playing Madrid..........they will tune in and watch. Sky and BT will divy up the rights like they always do and football will carry on.

This is just the reality of the situation.

That's a fact. Similar to the United fans wearing their green and yellow scarves in protest at the Glazers - a small few gave up supporting United but the vast majority kept plodding along.

Same will happen here - loads of threats but at the end of the day they'll keep supporting their teams.

MarkY91

I can't believe I just woke up and this is still true. The whole thing sounds like a ridiculously unrealistic dream.

recyclops

Sources close to several clubs say their research shows that younger supporters want to see more games between the world’s most famous clubs and players and the clubs are responding to the trends.

nullzero

recyclops wrote: »

Sources close to several clubs say their research shows that younger supporters want to see more games between the world’s most famous clubs and players and the clubs are responding to the trends.

That's because they're kids and they don't know any better. That's essentially who this idea is targeting, kids who don't know any better.

breezy1985

Putting aside the money hungry aspect and just looking at it as a structure I much prefer it to the horrible new Champions League plan which is sort of a super league but isnt.

My 2 big worries are without relegation the season could get boring very quickly for some teams.
The other is the 5 slots “based on their achievements in the prior seasons”. Given FIFA are involved how long would it be before talk starts about adding an American "franchise" or similar to a European league

Leroy42

There are loads of examples of competition without relegations. NFL, six nations, All Ireland. Loads more.

And yet they are watched. And people are interested.

The Top 6 in UK have almost zero chance of relegation yet they are the biggest supported. Does a Pool, ManU fan really watch the PL because of the relegation battle?

Like the CL itself, if this league brings the best teams with the best players then people will watch.

breezy1985

nullzero wrote: »

That's because they're kids and they don't know any better. That's essentially who this idea is targeting, kids who don't know any better.

A lot of those kids have nothing to lose as they cant afford to go see big clubs in the Premier League anyway so if you have to watch from home better off with Man U v Madrid over Man U v Bournmouth

lertsnim

Leroy42 wrote: »

There are loads of examples of competition without relegations. NFL, six nations, All Ireland. Loads more.

The All Ireland isn't a league. Its a cup competition. The national hurling and football leagues do however have relegation.

RoryMac

Big Ears wrote: »

Not initially, the TV money and sponsorships will be huge.
But when they're up for renewal, if the second TV deal is only 65-70% of the first one, based off them not attracting the viewership they expect, the league could fold overnight !

What then, teams looking to rejoin the football league at the bottom rung of the ladder ?

I agree, the United vs Barca and Liverpool Vs Real games were exciting because you didn't see them every year but 2 or 3 years into this and with no prospect of relegation watching the same teams play glorified friendlies will quickly become boring.

Same for the domestic leagues either left without the top clubs or with them but no incentive to go and win it.

Might sound OTT but this could easily destroy football all to line the pockets of owners that couldn't care less about the game or the fans.

Most people I know have already lost a lot of interest in football over the last few years with how bland and sanitised it has become, VAR and no fans at games have accelerated this again and this for many will be the tipping point for them to give up

Kirby

RoryMac wrote: »

I agree, the United vs Barca and Liverpool Vs Real games were exciting because you didn't see them every year but 2 or 3 years into this and with no prospect of relegation watching the same teams play glorified friendlies will quickly become boring.

Same for the domestic leagues either left without the top clubs or with them but no incentive to go and win it.

Might sound OTT but this could easily destroy football all to line the pockets of owners that couldn't care less about the game or the fans.

Most people I know have already lost a lot of interest in football over the last few years with how bland and sanitised it has become, VAR and no fans at games have accelerated this again and this for many will be the tipping point for them to give up

I would echo your anecdotal evidence with some of my own. I have several friends who were football mad ten years ago and now don't give it a second though bar maybe the world cup.

But the numbers prove us wrong. More people are watching the game than ever before. For every fan it loses, it gain's two more.

Football isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Big Ears

6 wrote: »

It's 12+3 teams so 15 initially. Not sure of the other 3 yet.

It'll be 15 when they have 15, tight now there's only 12.

We know they wanted 15 permanent +5 interchangeable, and the second bit of that won't be happening, so it'll possibly change their plans for how many permanent teams they want.

They likely wanted Bayern, Dortmund and PSG in that first 15, and right now that's not happening. The pressure on them then is do they stay with what they have to maintain a "higher standard" or do they include lesser teams such as the Old Firm to make up the numbers if they can't lure other top teams.

Either way I doubt anyone's happy at the moment, including the breakaway teams. They'll have expected the top German and French teams to go with this !

breezy1985

rob316 wrote: »

This is instead of the champions League though? It's an increasingly stale competition and the new format isn't much better. Should go back to knock out only format, the group stages are full of dross that add no value.

If this breakaway happens UEFA should go back to a straight knockout for champions of the domestic leagues.


But straight knockout in the current set up will never happen

breezy1985

Kirby wrote: »

I would echo your anecdotal evidence with some of my own. I have several friends who were football mad ten years ago and now don't give it a second though bar maybe the world cup.

But the numbers prove us wrong. More people are watching the game than ever before. For every fan it loses, it gain's two more.

Football isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Thats just age

Weepsie

Milan, Inter, Spurs, Arsenal and to a lesser extent, Man Utd have all been largely rubbish or irrelevant in the context of the champions League for the last 10 years.

Pretending that any of them against Madrid would be a brilliant game is daydreaming stuff at the moment.

Should be working to make the league's more equitable for all and getting things on merit, but it's just the club's with the best pr machines and global reach

RoryMac

Kirby wrote: »

I would echo your anecdotal evidence with some of my own. I have several friends who were football mad ten years ago and now don't give it a second though bar maybe the world cup.

But the numbers prove us wrong. More people are watching the game than ever before. For every fan it loses, it gain's two more.

Football isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Numbers may prove us wrong but the last EPL TV deal was down £1b on the previous one as the next one is expected to be down again so something is changing.

Kirby

Weepsie wrote: »

Milan, Inter, Spurs, Arsenal and to a lesser extent, Man Utd have all been largely rubbish or irrelevant in the context of the champions League for the last 10 years.

Pretending that any of them against Madrid would be a brilliant game is daydreaming stuff at the moment.

Should be working to make the league's more equitable for all and getting things on merit, but it's just the club's with the best pr machines and global reach

Spurs got to a champions league final not too long ago.

Kirby

RoryMac wrote: »

Numbers may prove us wrong but the last EPL TV deal was down £1b on the previous one as the next one is expected to be down again so something is changing.

What's changing is that Sky and BT got together and decided not to bid each other up anymore. Smart to be honest.

.G.

Kirby wrote: »

You might not be mentioning but plenty of people are. People are emotional and angry with plenty of "I'm ashamed to be an X fan" "I'll never support Y club again!"

But when the dust settles, the type of people who love football and love following their clubs won't abandon it. When match day 1 of this new super league rolls around and Liverpool are playing Barcelona and United are playing Madrid..........they will tune in and watch. Sky and BT will divy up the rights like they always do and football will carry on.

This is just the reality of the situation.

Yup, and to be fair, the clubs themselves as institutions we've all supported for decades aren't at fault here, it's their current owners who are the problem.

The glazers out movement was ineffective, I'll be interested to see how Liverpool fans approach this as their own movement against previous owners was very effective.

Big Ears

Kirby wrote: »

What's changing is that Sky and BT got together and decided not to bid each other up anymore. Smart to be honest.

How TV react to this will also be interesting.
If DAZN and Amazon get the rights to this new league, meanwhile Sky and BT and Bein etc completely ignore this new league, not even mention it exists.

How would that effect growth ?
How big an effect does the likes of Sky Sports News constantly hyping the Premier League build it up ?

Weepsie

Kirby wrote: »

Spurs got to a champions league final not too long ago.

But otherwise have not won a trophy in 13 years. They're not a footballing powerhouse, nor are the other clubs the way they are dressing this up as.

They're a financial one yes, but footballing no.

Tom Mann Centuria

I think the prospect of a fifth or sixth place finish in this league every year, which most teams competing can realistically hope for, is so I'm uninspiring I can't imagine why any supporter of a team joining would care. Spurs Arsenal and Athletico aren't going to suddenly outspend the usual big spending suspects, so they're destined to become midtable or worse every single year.

We really need this win because 6th get an extra 3 million compared to 7th is not compelling, to me anyway.

breezy1985

Weepsie wrote: »

But otherwise have not won a trophy in 13 years. They're not a footballing powerhouse, nor are the other clubs the way they are dressing this up as.

They're a financial one yes, but footballing no.

Also the whole thing involves just 7 cities right now

StringerBell

6 wrote: »

It's 12+3 teams so 15 initially. Not sure of the other 3 yet.

It will be a 20 team league, two groups of 10.

15 "founding members" and 5 who will be in or out based on sporting performance the prior year apparently.

I imagine there will be some kind of settlement reached between the big clubs and uefa to get a bigger slice of the pie ultimately.

DeanAustin

lawred2 wrote: »

So these clubs expect us to believe that their plan is to play in two concurrent twenty team leagues?

So 76 games a season!?

lol

That's not the plan. The ESL will have two 10 team groups I think so 18 games plus quarters, semis and a final.

So an extra 20 odd games on top of the PL. Get rid of the League Cup and potentially the FA Cup and it's not massively more games than today.