Des Bishop falls foul of the Traveller lobby

Hotblack Desiato

Misread, sorry

boardise

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

?

These are people who learned Irish from the cradle. They speak Irish because that was the language of the family home, and, to a lesser extent the community (cousins, other emigrants etc).

Plenty would also spend time back home in Conamara during the summer etc. too.

That's interesting ..I assumed he meant a different type of person -a native speaker of English who for one reason or another decided to try to learn some Gaelic in a night class or from books/ CDs etc. I met this kind of learner when I spent some time in Buffalo , in fact I taught such classes. It's fair to say few if any would ever get beyond basic, mechanical present tense competence. It was the social occasion they were mostly after as well as a vague sense of connection to some kind of romantic concept of 'Irishness'.

goose2005

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the african american analogy - comparison falls down in many areas but that doesnt stop many gormlessly trotting it out

A better comparison would be with groups that cut themselves off from normal society. Like the Amish, if they didn't own farms and didn't work.

LegallyAbroad

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So what. Speaking Irish has nothing whatsoever to do with being Irish.

Language is universally recognised as a marker of nationality (even if it is not always a pre-requisite). You can deny reality if you want, but the fact that being able to speak Irish is quite obviously a (significant) marker of Irishness. In the same way as French is for French people, Finnish is for Finns, Danish is for Danes etc.,

If your statement was true we should be equally surprised that an Irish person speaks Irish as when a German can speak Irish. That is quite obviously untrue.

The clue is in the name.

It is interesting when this topic come up it is the Anglophones/Monoglots who have the restrictive/narrow view of nationality (and incidentally seem to be most critical of Travellers). Possibly because they feel something lacking in their own identity. Post-colonialism is a hell of a drug.

LegallyAbroad

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

She isn't. She's English.

Just at my kids aren't Irish just because I am and I'm not welsh just because my mother was.

I suppose the hurling Championship is named after an English man too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_MacCarthy

breezy1985

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

I suppose the hurling Championship is named after an English man too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_MacCarthy

Ya and there is nothing wrong with that.

breezy1985

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Language is universally recognised as a marker of nationality (even if it is not always a pre-requisite). You can deny reality if you want, but the fact that being able to speak Irish is quite obviously a (significant) marker of Irishness. In the same way as French is for French people, Finnish is for Finns, Danish is for Danes etc.,

We have a big problem then if that is true because hardly anyone in Ireland can speak Irish.

LegallyAbroad

breezy1985 wrote: »

We have a big problem then if that is true because hardly anyone in Ireland can speak Irish.

Why do we have a problem?

(It's also not true that hardly anyone in Ireland can speak Irish, but let's not go down that particular rabbit-hole now)

LegallyAbroad

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya and there is nothing wrong with that.

To state that an Irish speaking hurler who was a prominent Irish nationalist and leading figure in the GAA was not Irish is to contort Irishness so much as to make it a nothing.

If Irishness means nothing other than born in Ireland to Irish parents, it's a completely useless term.

breezy1985

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Why do we have a problem?

(It's also not true that hardly anyone in Ireland can speak Irish, but let's not go down that particular rabbit-hole now)

No lets go down as its absolute bull to say most people in Ireland can speak Irish.


As for McCarthy Im not denying his Irishness his heritage is mixed and it would be wrong not to acknowledge that

LegallyAbroad

breezy1985 wrote: »

No lets go down as its absolute bull to say most people in Ireland can speak Irish.


As for McCarthy Im not denying his Irishness his heritage is mixed and it would be wrong not to acknowledge that

Nobody said that?

Do you think it must be either "hardly anyone" can speak Irish or "most people" can speak Irish? It's clearly in between those two points.

Anyway, why do we have a "big problem" if the ability to speak Irish is a marker, but not a pre-requisite, of Irishness?

breezy1985

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Nobody said that?

Do you think it must be either "hardly anyone" can speak Irish or "most people" can speak Irish? It's clearly in between those two points.

Anyway, why do we have a "big problem" if the ability to speak Irish is a marker, but not a pre-requisite, of Irishness?

I think hardly anyone in Ireland can speak Irish and passing your leaving does not mean you can even come close to actually speaking Irish before you start pulling stats


And you didnt say maker you said "(significant) marker" which it is not and is kinda part of my earlier point that only non Ireland born with mystical notions of this nation believe it is

LegallyAbroad

breezy1985 wrote: »

I think hardly anyone in Ireland can speak Irish and passing your leaving does not mean you can even come close to actually speaking Irish before you start pulling stats


And you didnt say maker you said "(significant) marker" which it is not and is kinda part of my earlier point that only non Ireland born with mystical notions of this nation believe it is

You may think that, but there are well over 100,000 fluent Irish speakers in Ireland (do you think it's a fluke that the Taoiseach, President, and a number of Cabinet Ministers speaker Irish - taking one group of people).

Perhaps it hinges on your definition of "hardly anyone".

Anyway, I can see we won't agree/get anywhere on this, so I'll leave it there.

breezy1985

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

You may think that, but there are well over 100,000 fluent Irish speakers in Ireland (do you think it's a fluke that the Taoiseach, President, and a number of Cabinet Ministers speaker Irish - taking one group of people).

Perhaps it hinges on your definition of "hardly anyone".

Anyway, I can see we won't agree/get anywhere on this, so I'll leave it there.

Those cabinet members speak about as much Irish as your average Sinn Féin politician or All Ireland winning captain.


And isnt 100,000 about 2 to 3% of the current population of Ireland which is "hardly anyone" in any definition theres no perhaps about it