Remote working public servants not entitled to take flexi time.

siblers

siblers wrote: »

What about if you need time off for school collections or drop offs? Have a medical appointment? Or if you have no one to mind your child etc for part of the day. Just because you work from home doesn't mean you have no excuse not to be at work

Why would you need time off for school collections and drop offs?

Morning core time is 10:00am to 12:30pm. Most schools start around 9am, so where is the issue?

Same with collections, you can take your lunch anytime between 12:30 and 2:30pm. So do the pickup then. If the school pick up is later then 2:30pm, just take a later lunch break. The system allows for staggered lunch breaks and working hours now. If anything, its better then before.

If you have no one to mind your child during part of the day, clock off and make up those hours when you do, or in the evenings or weekends. Though as far as I am aware childminders and creches are still operating so again, where is the issue? If you were in the office you'd have to arrange childcare.

Credit for core time for medical appointments was alway allowed. That hasn't changed either.


Now, its 2:30pm, my lunchbreak is over! So back to work...

Samuel T. Cogley

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would you need time off for school collections and drop offs?

Morning core time is 10:00am to 12:30pm. Most schools start around 9am, so where is the issue?

Same with collections, you can take your lunch anytime between 12:30 and 2:30pm. So do the pickup then. If the school pick up is later then 2:30pm, just take a later lunch break. The system allows for staggered lunch breaks and working hours now. If anything, its better then before.

If you have no one to mind your child during part of the day, clock off and make up those hours when you do, or in the evenings or weekends. Though as far as I am aware childminders and creches are still operating so again, where is the issue? If you were in the office you'd have to arrange childcare.

Credit for core time for medical appointments was alway allowed. That hasn't changed either.


Now, its 2:30pm, my lunchbreak is over! So back to work...

That's all flexitime though and I thought the point of the thread was that flexi was being suspended for some people WFH.

c0rk3r

Someone else on boards once said working in the Civil / Public service is the worst job in the best of times and the best job in the worst of times. It just so happens we're in the worst of times.

I think what people fail to understand is that flexi time is one of the best perks of being in the civil service unless of course you joined pre-2011. The pension is probably a better perk. My perks in the private sector were fantastic, free lunch, free health insurance, paid social events every month, matched pension contributions, bonus, generous pay bumps every year and a paid Christmas party ! obviously the stability is a perk but with 1/2 or 1/3 of the salary as a result. What do you want ? Quality of life or Money? I made my choice.

Back to the flexi, its something i really miss. I could take a day and a half every month on top of my annual leave. If I played my cards right i could have 43 days annual leave. It was glorious !

Is there an argument to be made to retain the flexi system whilst working from home ? Yes but its tenuous and i don't imagine it will hold up. Not so long ago there was a circular issued to every department stating regardless if you worked from home or within the office if you travelled abroad outside the green listed countries you must quarantine. So if i worked from home and came back having travelled aboard i cannot work at home even though i'm working from home, i must quarantine and not work. The idea is that those who cannot avail of working from home are treated differently and unfairly. It could be argued that the same is occurring with the flexi system. I wouldn't make that argument but if you wanted to... go ahead.

There is also hope that the inter-departmental group working on a strategy for working from home will make recommendations to government with regard to retaining the flexi system whilst WFH. We'll have to wait and see with this one.

Long live the civil service :pac:

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's all flexitime though and I thought the point of the thread was that flexi was being suspended for some people WFH.

Only the part about working up time for extra days off has been suspended.

AndrewJRenko

Tzardine wrote: »

Jesus OP. Get a grip.

You are essentially moaning that you can't get your extra day a month off - when you are at home all the time anyway.

It's not 'an extra day off' as you well know. It is time off to cover additional time already spent at work.

Tzardine

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not 'an extra day off' as you well know. It is time off to cover additional time already spent at work.

And "as you well know", people often only spend the additional time at work to build up the day off.

OP, just explain to your manager that you'd rather not WFH anymore and that you're feeling hard done by because you can't take advantage of flexitime to get an extra day or so off each month. I'm sure they'll understand your predicament.

Samsgirl

Civil Servant here. I spent 20 years in the private sector where I got paid overtime, health care , pension top up, yearly bonus and share options.

I took a 15k pay drop and lost all the 'privileges' above when I joined the civil service. I joined for job stability and family friendly arrangements. Being in the CS is like the Ryanair of working entitlement. Its stripped back to the bones, yeah in normal times you can earn flexi but you only get what you work up.

I have no experience other my current CS role and believe me, no one is sitting there doing nothing till 7pm to work up a day and a half off. If you're there, you're working.

We have a mix of people who split their week between working from home and working in the office and also people full time in the office. Office based staff still have flexi but if you work any part of the flexi period from home you don't have it.

The people working from home don't have a problem with this as this is their flexible arrangement and its what help them out with childcare etc... If they have an appointment during the work day, they can take it as they aren't stuck to core hours but they still balance their clock at the end of the week.

hamburgham

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not 'an extra day off' as you well know. It is time off to cover additional time already spent at work.

That's right, time spent at work but not working. People rush in, almost knock you over to get 'on the clock', then breathe, say hello, take off their coat, get breakfast, put on make up, get changed out of cycling gear, shower, all nice and relaxed as they're now working up time. It's the biggest con ever. Fair enough to those who are genuinely working more than their hours but massively abused.

doc22

hamburgham wrote: »

That's right, time spent at work but not working. People rush in, almost knock you over to get 'on the clock', then breathe, say hello, take off their coat, get breakfast, put on make up, get changed out of cycling gear etc, nice and relaxed as they're now working up time.It's the biggest con ever. Fair enough to those who are genuinely working more than their hours but massively abused.

I'd agree, not many are rushing to start work anyway, but as long as they get the work assigned to them done whats the problem.

Samsgirl

hamburgham wrote: »

That's right, time spent at work but not working. People rush in, almost knock you over to get 'on the clock', then breathe, say hello, take off their coat, get breakfast, put on make up, get changed out of cycling gear etc, nice and relaxed as they're now working up time. It's the biggest con ever. Fair enough to those who are genuinely working more than their hours but massively abused.

Are there many vacancies in your dept? Sounds like a great place if people can do all that. Wouldn't mind putting it down in my transfer list if it's that good there and ye can do all that. Definitely not the case where I am.

Tzardine

Samsgirl wrote: »

Are there many vacancies in your dept? Sounds like a great place if people can do all that. Wouldn't mind putting it down in my transfer list if it's that good there and ye can do all that. Definitely not the case where I am.

It is absolutely my experience too. In both places I have worked while in the CS.

I don't doubt that there are departments such as yours where this genuinely does not happen, but it is happening in the majority of places I suspect.

horsebox7

Should staff be penalised by losing flexi leave for pre existing medical reason?

John Hutton

horsebox7 wrote: »

Should staff be penalised by losing flexi leave for pre existing medical reason?

Give it a rest at this stage... you'll have seen things are gearing up for a new pay agreement, bigger fish to fry than your problem.

Chaos Black

Tzardine wrote: »

It is absolutely my experience too. In both places I have worked while in the CS.

I don't doubt that there are departments such as yours where this genuinely does not happen, but it is happening in the majority of places I suspect.

My experience to date in the CS is that it pretty much depends on the line manager. Some take a very liberal and flexible approach for a lack of a better way of putting it, others can be very stringent.

I've certainly had flexibility given to me around the clock for various things, but usually after a relationship is built with the manager and they know I am not taking the proverbial. Works both ways, I have done work through lunches and past office hours without the expectation of having it added on or complaint.

I have witnessed the not so great paractices of clock abuse, like leaving it on and watching a personal device on a Friday evening when most were gone home. Piss takers in every walk of life imo and usually a manager in the background who would rather avoid conflict then confront it.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Aglomerado wrote: »

My flexi is gone since March. I am still recording my time in the system as per instructions. It's balancing out mostly: Some weeks I might put in 36 hours which would mean a deficit, but one or two crazy weeks where I put in 40+ hours due to a deluge of PQs etc. will cancel those out. No set hours but I try to keep normal office hours. Some colleagues make up time at evenings or weekends. I used to always work up at least a day's flexi leave every 4 weeks when I was in the office, but I have no problem losing that working from home; it's too difficult for managers to validate it now.

Lol at considering 40+ hours to be a crazy week.

Aglomerado

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Lol at considering 40+ hours to be a crazy week.

I can see how a junior surgeon might think that. Say hi to JD and Dr Kelso for me.;)

Divisadero

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Lol at considering 40+ hours to be a crazy week.

Oh here we go the private sector Dude with the hero complex. Dick measuring contest to see who works the longest hours. Go ahead work yourself into an early grave if it floats your boat. Some of us have different priorites and dare I say better perspective and know what is really important in life. So have a pop if it makes you feel superior. Laugh away. I'm laughing right back at you.

Divisadero

OP take note:

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/583236/department-staff-concerned-over-lack-of-social-distancing-at-limerick-office.html

SouthWesterly

Covidhaveago wrote: »

No issues here with taking of flexi leave not being allowed while WFH. Most of my direct reports have chosen to take barely any annual leave since lockdown began, imagine its something similar same across the CS.

We are told to take holidays. Its a h&s requirement.

No problem with no flexi. Having been in the private sector more of my life than the public I'm happy to have a job.

I do my hours and clock off. Then I look to my private life 5 minutes later rather than having an hour drive home

HartsHat

horsebox7 wrote: »

Due to unprecedented cv19 arrangements public servants including those working in the local authority sector are not entitled to take flexi leave while those who are office based are entitled to take flexi leave which is unfair.

Get a grip. It's a privilege, not a right. You're not commuting.

HartsHat

siblers wrote: »

What about if you need time off for school collections or drop offs? Have a medical appointment? Or if you have no one to mind your child etc for part of the day. Just because you work from home doesn't mean you have no excuse not to be at work

You talk as if all civil servants have flexi as if its some sort of in built necessity?

Flexi is only available to some grades, some of the time, in some locations.

It's not a right.

horsebox7

Is it right that staff work excess additional hours to do work for under resourced departments that they are not credit for in terms of time back?

John Hutton

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058070673

No comment.

RGARDINR

Sure just work a few extra hours Monday to Thursday and take a half day on the Friday. If your allowed do this then it's better then working the extra hrs for one full flexi day a month.

HartsHat

horsebox7 wrote: »

Is it right that staff work excess additional hours to do work for under resourced departments that they are not credit for in terms of time back?

Jesus Christ, would you ever just get on with it?

It's a national emergency.

I have genuinely never come across the attitude in my day to day experience of the civil service.

Shoulder to the wheel time.

We have secure jobs, we got a 2% pay increase this month, get on with the job, work whatever hours are required, and get the country out the other side of side of this.

horsebox7

horsebox7 wrote: »

Is it right that staff work excess additional hours to do work for under resourced departments that they are not credit for in terms of time back?

No, it's not right you have to work additional hours to pick up the slack from the wasters in your department (assuming that is not you). Every part of the CS has its wasters that cannot be got rid of.

But hey, you signed up for the job. There's a good chap, keep working up all those additional hours while your team wasters continue to coast along. You're all part of the same union, one for all and all for one.

horsebox7

salonfire wrote: »

No, it's not right you have to work additional hours to pick up the slack from the wasters in your department (assuming that is not you). Every part of the CS has its wasters that cannot be got rid of.

But hey, you signed up for the job. There's a good chap, keep working up all those additional hours while your team wasters continue to coast along. You're all part of the same union, one for all and all for one.

And for those departments who are under resourced?

horsebox7

HartsHat wrote: »

Jesus Christ, would you ever just get on with it?

It's a national emergency.

I have genuinely never come across the attitude in my day to day experience of the civil service.

Shoulder to the wheel time.

We have secure jobs, we got a 2% pay increase this month, get on with the job, work whatever hours are required, and get the country out the other side of side of this.

Have you considered sustainable work life balance and mental health?

HartsHat

horsebox7 wrote: »

Have you considered sustainable work life balance and mental health?

Oh for the love of God.

Your work/life balance and mental health will be just fine if you have to work a few extra hours.

It's a national emergency, get on with it.

kathleen37

horsebox7 wrote: »

Have you considered sustainable work life balance and mental health?

I've been loath to reply to this thread - same as I didn't reply to your thread in April (linked further up) where you were off work and didn't appear too willing to get setup for working from home? I'm glad that got sorted as it seems you are now working from home.

Sincerely, if the temporary removal of flexi during a pandemic is affecting your work life balance and mental health, then I wonder if the job you have is right for you?

Mental health is so, so important. From what you have posted, it does look like your employer is doing what they can to assist you. But sometimes, it's just the case that a person and a job doesn't fit. That isn't necessarily anyone's fault.

Having a job isn't a right. It does require give and take from both sides.

If the removal of the flexi is really affecting you, then I would recommend looking for something else. I don't think it is something that you yourself can change though of course contact your Union. Stressing out over something that isn't in your remit to get changed though, isn't helpful for you.

Look at your current job and the changes that have been made to accommodate you and consider would you get these accommodations in another position?

I genuinely wish you all the best. Take care of yourself.

noodler

John Hutton wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058070673

No comment.

It's scary tbh.

SouthWesterly

kathleen37 wrote: »

I've been loath to reply to this thread - same as I didn't reply to your thread in April (linked further up) where you were off work and didn't appear too willing to get setup for working from home? I'm glad that got sorted as it seems you are now working from home.

Sincerely, if the temporary removal of flexi during a pandemic is affecting your work life balance and mental health, then I wonder if the job you have is right for you?

Mental health is so, so important. From what you have posted, it does look like your employer is doing what they can to assist you. But sometimes, it's just the case that a person and a job doesn't fit. That isn't necessarily anyone's fault.

Having a job isn't a right. It does require give and take from both sides.

If the removal of the flexi is really affecting you, then I would recommend looking for something else. I don't think it is something that you yourself can change though of course contact your Union. Stressing out over something that isn't in your remit to get changed though, isn't helpful for you.

Look at your current job and the changes that have been made to accommodate you and consider would you get these accommodations in another position?

I genuinely wish you all the best. Take care of yourself.

I couldn't have said it better. thank you.

horsebox7

Essentially conditions for remote working are not the same.

kathleen37

horsebox7 wrote: »

Essentially conditions for remote working are not the same.

During a pandemic, I would agree with you. These are not normal times.

beauf

horsebox7 wrote: »

Essentially conditions for remote working are not the same.

They don't have to be. You can have people on different "conditions" on the same office depending on business requirements and what they are working on. Privileges can also be withdrawn for other reasons. All contracts will say this in terms and conditions.

gordongekko

horsebox7 wrote: »

Should working from home be penalised? Don't think so.

You don't have a commute . Take that as being your Flexi

gordongekko

gordongekko wrote: »

You don't have a commute . Take that as being your Flexi

Actually, the few flexi workers I know are working most of their commuting time also. My house companion works at home, about 10.5 hours extra a week. For free.

noodler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, the few flexi workers I know are working most of their commuting time also. My house companion works at home, about 10.5 hours extra a week. For free.

If true they should talk to their long manager to see if they can manage their load better or come to a local agreement on Flexi.

kathleen37

Covidhaveago wrote: »

No issues here with taking of flexi leave not being allowed while WFH. Most of my direct reports have chosen to take barely any annual leave since lockdown began, imagine its something similar same across the CS.

What is the plan for people to take leave? What happens if everyone wants to take leave at the same time? Are people being allowed to carry leave over, which then leads to the question, how is leave managed next year?

I'd strongly suggest getting something in place here. I'd also agree with the taking of leave being a H&S issue.

HartsHat

horsebox7 wrote: »

Essentially conditions for remote working are not the same.

Correct.

Those at home don't have to commute to work or put themselves at risk from COVID.

Remote workers don't get Flexi.

C'est la vie.

beauf

HartsHat wrote: »

Correct.

Those at home don't have to commute to work or put themselves at risk from COVID.

Remote workers don't get Flexi.

C'est la vie.

None of that is relevant to Flexi.

People should stop linking it to safely or commuting it's got nothing to do with that. It's simply a perk that's been removed due to business requirements. Which they can do.

Tork

How long are you in the civil service? If you were there in 2008 you'll remember how your pay got cut and that you had to finally start paying more towards your pension. If I were you, I'd be praying that the government doesn't come back for more €, not whinging about losing a perk of the job.

OP I asked you back in my earlier post #91, have you actually been instructed to work the set standard hours, 9:15am to 5:45pm or are your start / lunch \ end of the day still flexible.

As I far as I can tell you haven't replied to my question, so I have to assume you haven't been asked to work set hours.

The fact is, flexible working hours are still in operation, its just the ability to work up flexi days that has been suspended for staff WFH.

From my personal perspective, I'm not going to complain about not being allow to making up 1.5 days a month on the clock, when I am saving the equivalent of 2 days every WEEK by not having to commute to an office.

You can see from the thread, you don't even have the support of other civil servants on this one.

Jim Root

Didn’t you just get a 2% increase in pay?

gmisk

Jim Root wrote: »

Didn’t you just get a 2% increase in pay?

That was a pay restoration no? Bit of a difference.

Tork

Jim Root wrote: »

Didn’t you just get a 2% increase in pay?

There's a real bang of "let them eat cake" off the OP. There are thousands of people now out of work or on reduced pay who'd love to be in their position. Some people want everything. They'll be the first to squawk when the bills for the pandemic start rolling in and their pay gets cut again.

Meeoow

noodler wrote: »

If true they should talk to their long manager to see if they can manage their load better or come to a local agreement on Flexi.

I would imagine that most managers will accommodate flexible workers, but if the workers are being awkward, maybe they will not be afforded flexi time.

gmisk

The OP can ask to work in the office if they want flexi time. So it is still an option.
They should be happy to have a job that lets them work from home on full pay.

horsebox7

gmisk wrote: »

The OP can ask to work in the office if they want flexi time. So it is still an option.
They should be happy to have a job that lets them work from home on full pay.

Valid point. Perhaps the offer of flexi leave may incentivise some employees to work from the office so that they can have the same conditions as their colleagues. This may also help employers have employees return to the office during this unprecedented cv19 pandemic even though some employees may have underlying health conditions.