Remote working public servants not entitled to take flexi time.

gerbilgranny

I always worked up a flexi day - which gave me 13 extra days' leave in a year. I work a 60% pattern, so 13 extra days is a big bonus.

What's irked me is that I've been working 9.5 - 11.00 hour days most weeks, since we started remote working last March, because well, the work is there, and I want to get through as much as I can. But when my broadband went for 1.5 days in the past week, it meant that I had to make up the hours on the days I should have been off, in order to meet the target hours. All those extra hours worked can't be carried over (fair enough) or even considered, when I ran into technical difficulties.

I had said I'd prefer to be office-based, but it's not an option, unfortunately.

99nsr125

horsebox7 wrote: »

Flexi time and flexi leave has always been a very important resource for staff who have to look after small children and a part of a sustainable work life balance for all staff. Remote working staff work the same amount and have the same output as office based staff yet remote working staff have no flexi leave. This has created a two tier system between work colleagues who do the same amount of work but from different physical locations. It's not the staff members fault that they have to work remotely for medical and health reasons is it?

You are in effect on 8 hours flexi time constantly when working from home.

Stop moaning about a perceived entitlement you're missing

Office based staff need flexi because they are office based.

Stop moaning

99nsr125

horsebox7 wrote: »

This is an unfair comment.

Eh no it's not

Did you miss the part where 150,000 people lost their jobs on Wednesday

Stop being a moan bag

SouthWesterly

gerbilgranny wrote: »

I always worked up a flexi day - which gave me 13 extra days' leave in a year. I work a 60% pattern, so 13 extra days is a big bonus.

What's irked me is that I've been working 9.5 - 11.00 hour days most weeks, since we started remote working last March, because well, the work is there, and I want to get through as much as I can. But when my broadband went for 1.5 days in the past week, it meant that I had to make up the hours on the days I should have been off, in order to meet the target hours. All those extra hours worked can't be carried over (fair enough) or even considered, when I ran into technical difficulties.

I had said I'd prefer to be office-based, but it's not an option, unfortunately.

Work your hours. I learnt that in the private sector. I'm in the Cs now and working at home. I do my hours. No more.

beauf

gmisk wrote: »

The OP can ask to work in the office if they want flexi time. So it is still an option.
....

For many it's not an option. The office is closed except for those who have to be there. There also Maybe other issues that make working in the office under Covid less than ideal.

That said managers should be know the difference between someone who is doing their best in a difficult situation and being productive those who are using the situation and being unproductive.

Chaos Black

beauf wrote: »

That said managers should be know the difference between someone who is doing their best in a difficult situation and being productive those who are using the situation and being unproductive.

Same people generally speaking pre-covid that weren't exemplary workers and are known..likely to fall into the latter category in the current situation.

To give a positive side of CS, I know co-workers who have forgone bereavement leave, work extra hours, out of normal hours including weekends and more besides without expectation of anything in return. Most people outside of the CS likely don't know what civil servants do day to day unlike other public services.

Divisadero

The OP is still arguing his/her case. That of course is allowed on a forum. I'm just wondering though can anything be done to put this horse back in its box. Then again horses do like to whinny which I suppose is similar to whining.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

If true they should talk to their long manager to see if they can manage their load better or come to a local agreement on Flexi.

Or just work the target hours

Timistry

pew wrote: »

Pay restoration not a pay rise.

No such thing

AndrewJRenko

gmisk wrote: »

The OP can ask to work in the office if they want flexi time. So it is still an option.
.

Generally this is not the case. Most offices are closed except for essential activities that cannot be done from home.

So staff are forced into providing office space to their employer free of charge along with furniture and heating.

gazzer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Generally this is not the case. Most offices are closed except for essential activities that cannot be done from home.

So staff are forced into providing office space to their employer free of charge along with furniture and heating.

This is true. I had to buy my own laptop and printer. Though I ended up buying a second had one so wasn't too expensive

My electricity bill has shot up but I switched energy providers to offset that

Overall I am not spending extra money and my commute has shot down from over 2 hours a day to 5 minutes 😊

The staff in my Dept will be working from home until at least Jan. You are allowed go into the office if you have to do large printing jobs or go through volumous FOI requests but that is only for a half day max.

Overall it is working well and I would hope that when staff are allowed back into the Dept that WFH will considered a viable option for 2/3 days a week.

I don't mind forgoing flexi to be honest.

TheJet

I’m a public servant and have worked on site all through Covid. Flexi was due to be restored to us at the end of August but hasn’t happened yet. I wouldn’t always have worked up a flexi day every flexi period but I really miss it. Since Covid my work load has increased. Some of my colleagues working in other offices were “remoting” and we were left picking up excess work that wasn’t done as a result. My manager never permitted working up a day and a half. You could, but you’d loose 3:42. I think she hated us working up flexi anyway.

horsebox7

https://www.lawsociety.ie/News/News/Stories/guide-to-remote-and-flexible-working/

Tork

Talk to your union rep if this is bothering you so much. As you can see, you have few supporters on this thread. Many of those disagreeing with you are civil servants too. Your entitled attitude is pissing people off and rightly so. You're working from home on full pay while thousands have lost their jobs and may never get them back. You have no idea how good you have it.

If I was you, I'd be more worried about who is going to pay for Covid when this is all over. After the crash of 2008, the government went after civil servants and cut their pay. If you think you'll still be sitting on your arse in 12 months time with the same take home pay you have today, you've got a shock coming your way.

Nigel Fairservice

I go into the office one day a week to do the few bits I can't do from home. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I'm not getting flexi at the moment. Right now there's nothing to do with the annual leave I already have without adding to it with flexi. I'm sure normal flexi arrangements will apply when it's safe for everyone to return to offices. My colleagues that work from the office have had flexi restored and I don't begrudge them.

My office is in a building shared with the local DEASP office. I walk past people queueing up outside the office when I go into my office. If you ever need reminding about how grateful you should be to have a job right now there it is. Have a little perspective.

horsebox7

Tork wrote: »

Talk to your union rep if this is bothering you so much. As you can see, you have few supporters on this thread. Many of those disagreeing with you are civil servants too. Your entitled attitude is pissing people off and rightly so. You're working from home on full pay while thousands have lost their jobs and may never get them back. You have no idea how good you have it.

If I was you, I'd be more worried about who is going to pay for Covid when this is all over. After the crash of 2008, the government went after civil servants and cut their pay. If you think you'll still be sitting on your arse in 12 months time with the same take home pay you have today, you've got a shock coming your way.

Invalid.

horsebox7

Nigel Fairservice wrote: »

I go into the office one day a week to do the few bits I can't do from home. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I'm not getting flexi at the moment. Right now there's nothing to do with the annual leave I already have without adding to it with flexi. I'm sure normal flexi arrangements will apply when it's safe for everyone to return to offices. My colleagues that work from the office have had flexi restored and I don't begrudge them.

My office is in a building shared with the local DEASP office. I walk past people queueing up outside the office when I go into my office. If you ever need reminding about how grateful you should be to have a job right now there it is. Have a little perspective.

I don't begrudge these colleagues either but I believe all employees should be allowed to work under the same conditions. If you read the document from the law society you can see that they recommend that employees be allowed to accrue time for flexi leave for additional hours worked.

Covidhaveago

kathleen37 wrote: »

What is the plan for people to take leave? What happens if everyone wants to take leave at the same time? Are people being allowed to carry leave over, which then leads to the question, how is leave managed next year?

I'd strongly suggest getting something in place here. I'd also agree with the taking of leave being a H&S issue.

Don't worry Kathleen there is something in place

Tork

horsebox7 wrote: »

Invalid.

Please clarify: What are your core working hours now?

horsebox7

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0514/1138340-linked-in-remote-working-survey/

Remote workers working 38 hours more per month.

Tork

Tork wrote: »

Please clarify: What are your core working hours now?

Isn't the point of the suspension of flexitime that there are no core hours now?

noodler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Isn't the point of the suspension of flexitime that there are no core hours now?

The very point the poster you quoted is making (repeatedly in fairness).

Bit OP is ignoring it.

Tork

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't the point of the suspension of flexitime that there are no core hours now?

I know somebody who still has core hours but they're much longer than what they'd have if they were in the office. Flexi leave is gone but there is now great freedom to pick and choose their hours.

Why is horsebox not answering the question?

horsebox7

Some remote working staff are working far in excess of core hours and are unfortunately not being credited for this time in terms of time off at a later date through flexi leave. Core hours are 8-6. Have you read the results of the survey posted where remote working staff work 38 hours extra a month?

Tork

Take it up with your union,

horsebox7

Tork wrote: »

Take it up with your union,

Thanks for your advice. As above.

Tork

I'm not being smart. What do you think anybody on boards can do for you if you feel hard done by? That is what you are paying your union sub for.

horsebox7

Tork wrote: »

I'm not being smart. What do you think anybody on boards can do for you if you feel hard done by? That is what you are paying your union sub for.

Just raising awareness if that's ok with you?

Jim Root

horsebox7 wrote: »

Just raising awareness if that's ok with you?

Raise awareness? Lol. Be happy with your 2% recent increase and job security while the rest of the nation grapples paycuts, job losses and 70 hour weeks in order to keep the lights on. Christ almighty,

horsebox7

horsebox7 wrote: »

Some remote working staff are working far in excess of core hours and are unfortunately not being credited for this time in terms of time off at a later date through flexi leave. Core hours are 8-6. Have you read the results of the survey posted where remote working staff work 38 hours extra a month?

Core hours are 10am-12:30pm and 2:30pm to 4:00pm

Flexible working bands are 8am to 7pm.

The standard working day (or normal attendance period) is 9:00am to 5:45pm on Monday to Thursday and 9.00am to 5.15pm on Friday with 1 hour and 15 minutes for lunch break each day.

Asking for the third time, have you been asked to work the standard working day?

maneno

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Core hours are 10am-12:30pm and 2:30pm to 4:00pm

Flexible working bands are 8am to 7pm.

The standard working day (or normal attendance period) is 9:00am to 5:45pm on Monday to Thursday and 9.00am to 5.15pm on Friday with 1 hour and 15 minutes for lunch break each day.

Asking for the third time, have you been asked to work the standard working day?

She will come back with the response “invalid”. The sense of entitlement on this one is mind boggling

Deshawn

Tork wrote: »

Talk to your union rep if this is bothering you so much. As you can see, you have few supporters on this thread. Many of those disagreeing with you are civil servants too. Your entitled attitude is pissing people off and rightly so. You're working from home on full pay while thousands have lost their jobs and may never get them back. You have no idea how good you have it.

If I was you, I'd be more worried about who is going to pay for Covid when this is all over. After the crash of 2008, the government went after civil servants and cut their pay. If you think you'll still be sitting on your arse in 12 months time with the same take home pay you have today, you've got a shock coming your way.

Hear hear.
I thought this thread was a pisstake at the beginning.

SouthWesterly

Deshawn wrote: »

Hear hear.
I thought this thread was a pisstake at the beginning.

Unfortunately not but there seems to be an attitude from people that civil servants have kept their jobs and that that is somehow wrong when others have lost theirs.

For the record it's not anybodies fault that someone else lost their job.

A lot of my friends have lost not only their jobs but the companies they built up of 30 years. Not one of them are blaming me for it because I've kept mine.

Honestly don't miss the flexi. Would make me reconsider the drive to get it if I ever get back to the office. The extra hours versus the time to see my family

horsebox7

Have you read recommendations for remote working from the law society? If so what does it say about flexi leave? Have you read the rte report on remote working? If so what are it's key findings?

AndrewJRenko

Jim Root wrote: »

Raise awareness? Lol. Be happy with your 2% recent increase and job security while the rest of the nation grapples paycuts, job losses and 70 hour weeks in order to keep the lights on. Christ almighty,

There is no 2% increase. There is a 2% restoration of a previous cut.

And btw, we're the ones keeping the lights on, literally and metaphorically.

Divisadero

Okay this is my last post on this thread. Thank feck I hear you say. I shouldn't let crap on the internet get to me. So hands up this is a weakness on my part.

OP you don't come across as someone who would go above and beyond. But just in case as has already been said if you are working too many hours just stop doing it. Simple.

If you feel that hard done by and this is genuinely upsetting you quit and let somebody keen take your place. If they will replace you that is as we are in uncertain times. As I said this forum is filled with threads with people trying to get into the public service. Let them have a go.

Finally If this really is stressing you and you are unable to let it go perhaps you should speak to a friend or even a professional.

as a civil servant, i cant see a valid basis for complaint here.

not like the (very few) people having to still attend the office are all delighted about it.

and commute time back and the flexibility to work much more conveniently around anything i might want to get done is more than payback for the loss of flexi.

if youve spoke to your manager and explaines that you cannot get yr duties done in a normal working day then thats all you can do, theyll reserve the right to accept that or not as your manager.

i must say, despite being a staunch defender myself of the pay and conditions in the public sphere, i am often surprised at the vocal minority of my colleagues who find things to complain bitterly about regardless of circumstances.

but theres 300 odd thousand of us, or whatever it is. bound to be a few unrealistic moaners i spose.

horsebox7

Should remote working staff have different conditions to office staff?

horsebox7

Has anyone read the recommendations from the law society? Has anyone read the rte report?

KaneToad

phildub wrote: »

Waaa waa waa

I cant get over the entitledness of you. Absolutely people WFH should be treated differently than people working from the office. They are leaving their homes every day and risking their health and the health of their family members.

You can roll out of bed and you are at work, not commuting, you stop working and you're at home, not spending an hour or so of your day traveling home. You can put loads of washing on throughout the day, do house chores, run small errands throughout the day while they are in the office. They will they need to spend their weekends and evenings doing these tasks.

The fact that you think that it is a punishment and unfair that you get to work from the comfort and safety of your own home is absolutely outrageous, you should be ashamed of yourself. This is not typical times, you did not choose to work from home, the same they didn't not choose to put their health at risk by going to the office.

Be thankful for your job, be thankful for your home that you can stay safe in, be thankful for your health. And be thankful that every single day essential workers all over the country are leaving their homes every morning and risking their health in order to keep the country from total collapse.

Such nonsense. Be thankful for your job...please. This is the kind of sh1t Bill Cullen would trot out.

You'd swear employers hire people for altruistic reasons. Nobody is forced to work anywhere. You assess your skills, the marketplace and your career objectives - and seek suitable employment.

I don't have the problem that the OP has but I can see the unfairness of it. Two different rules for people doing the same job will always feel unfair.

horsebox7

KaneToad wrote: »

Such nonsense. Be thankful for your job...please. This is the kind of sh1t Bill Cullen would trot out.

You'd swear employers hire people for altruistic reasons. Nobody is forced to work anywhere. You assess your skills, the marketplace and your career objectives - and seek suitable employment.

I don't have the problem that the OP has but I can see the unfairness of it. Two different rules for people doing the same job will always feel unfair.

It is unfair l agree.

horsebox7

Please read the comprehensive reports on remote working from rte and the law society if you wish to put forward any further negative commentary.

noodler

horsebox7 wrote: »

Should remote working staff have different conditions to office staff?

It is a bit unfair that office staff have to commute and have to work with more supervision.

OP, is working extra hours even an issue for you? Earlier threads showed you trying to permanently avoid working..while at home (for some vague covid). Is it true you are now actually working additional hours.or is all this hypothetical?

horsebox7

noodler wrote: »

It is a bit unfair that office staff have to commute and have to work with more supervision.

OP, is working extra hours even an issue for you? Earlier threads showed you trying to permanently avoid working..while at home (for some vague covid). Is it true you are now actually working additional hours.or is all this hypothetical?

Separate issue to do with not having broadband previously.

horsebox7

noodler wrote: »

It is a bit unfair that office staff have to commute and have to work with more supervision.

OP, is working extra hours even an issue for you? Earlier threads showed you trying to permanently avoid working..while at home (for some vague covid). Is it true you are now actually working additional hours.or is all this hypothetical?

Did u read reports from law society and rte? Perhaps not?

horsebox7

Simple. Give remote working staff time off in lieu for additional hours worked on work that has to be delivered. What's the issue? Remote working staff are monitored daily by line managers.

Covidhaveago

Horsebox, perhaps your best bet here is to contact PERs Civil Service HR policy unit to discuss the law society report.

horsebox7

Covidhaveago wrote: »

Horsebox, perhaps your best bet here is to contact PERs Civil Service HR policy unit to discuss the law society report.

Yes perhaps. The law society report clearly states that staff should be credited in time for extra hours worked. The same should apply to civil service

never_mind

PS worker here and don't have flexi time.

Am on the computer at the moment doing work. I'm not looking for a pat on the back but the idea that CS/PS workers do nothing is bizarre. Like all industries, workloads and personal availability has increased. It's hard to say no to a meeting when you are literally beside your computer 24/7.

Flexi time is a great thing to have and a lot of private sector employees have it in place. It being taken away is no big deal. If your boss is understanding and you need to take two hours at lunch to go to an appt then it should be fine. It really is pointless to complain about things like this when you have a pensionable job that won't be disappearing any time soon.

horsebox7

horsebox7 wrote: »

Has anyone read the recommendations from the law society? Has anyone read the rte report?

Yes I have.

NEITHER are specific to the Civil or Public Service.

The RTE article is generic to all WFH, including the private sector.

The Law Society report is also a set of generic guidelines for any employer who is considering allowing flexi time and WFH (not those who already have implemented them) and does NOT support your argument that REMOTE workers should be allowed accrue hours for flexi leave.

Final word - you fail to understand that flexible working hours are a privilege, not an entitlement, and your employer can change the terms of those conditions - including withdraw them - at any time.

As you continue to ignore straightforward questions, I am now out.