Nursing Home Scandal Coming Again

Amirani

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the HSE were supposed to have a contingency for an outbreak in a nursing home. they didn't.

They did. The first set of staff they dispatched didn't turn up.

They have now dispatched more staff to the nursing home, and it now has appropriate staffing.

ohnonotgmail

Amirani wrote: »

They did. The first set of staff they dispatched didn't turn up.

They have now dispatched more staff to the nursing home, and it now has appropriate staffing.

so they said they had a contingency but it didn't work. i'm not sure that is an improvement.

Amirani

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so they said they had a contingency but it didn't work. i'm not sure that is an improvement.

That's a different thing entirely to saying the responsibility for the outbreak happening lies with the HSE.

ohnonotgmail

Amirani wrote: »

That's a different thing entirely to saying the responsibility for the outbreak happening lies with the HSE.

who has said that?

DaSilva

It doesn't matter who is to blame, it matters that the current strategy is flawed, as we are facing the same problems again.

This whole we can't do anything if its widespread in the community is just transferring responsibility to the entire public. That might please some people as they want to see the burden shared but it is clearly an ineffective strategy as it is failing for the second time. It is like saying we won't make any extra effort to protect our nation because we expect the world to do its part keeping transmission low across the globe.

Amirani

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

who has said that?

The poster I responded to before you decided to hop in.

The HSE don't have "ultimate responsibility" for private nursing homes, as the OP claimed, they have a support role.

DaSilva

DaSilva wrote: »

It doesn't matter who is to blame, it matters that the current strategy is flawed, as we are facing the same problems again.

This whole we can't do anything if its widespread in the community is just transferring responsibility to the entire public. That might please some people as they want to see the burden shared but it is clearly an ineffective strategy as it is failing for the second time. It is like saying we won't make any extra effort to protect our nation because we expect the world to do its part keeping transmission low across the globe.

Outbreak across Europe have DOUBLED in the last 3 weeks. That is as unprecedented as the pandemic itself. It’s showing no signs of slowing down or going away. We’re not the only country struggling. It’s up to each and every one of us to do our best to care for ourselves and our loved ones. Simple things by
(1) wearing a face mask
(2) were a face mask properly ie covering both mouth and nose.

ohnonotgmail

Amirani wrote: »

The poster I responded to before you decided to hop in.

The HSE don't have "ultimate responsibility" for private nursing homes, as the OP claimed, they have a support role.

No, they don't. but they do have responsibility for their own failures in this instance.

VillageIdiot71

DaSilva wrote: »

It doesn't matter who is to blame, it matters that the current strategy is flawed, as we are facing the same problems again.

This whole we can't do anything if its widespread in the community is just transferring responsibility to the entire public. That might please some people as they want to see the burden shared but it is clearly an ineffective strategy as it is failing for the second time. It is like saying we won't make any extra effort to protect our nation because we expect the world to do its part keeping transmission low across the globe.

I think you have put your finger on it.

To my mind, I've no doubt it would be expensive and complex for the HSE to get deeply involved in the management and operation of private nursing homes. I'm sure HSE nursing and care staff would be profoundly wary of any suggestion they should stand ready for redeployment into those settings.

But it would be much, much, less expensive than closing down huge amounts of the economy by edict. It's actually incredible that this is the option we are choosing.

Spending literally billions on PUP, rather than concentrating resources on the few areas that have particular risks. That's the point, surely.

quokula

This is proving that, the same as everywhere else in the world, it's physically impossible to let an invisible virus run rampant in the community while having a magic barrier that will reliably protect the vulnerable. Hopefully we've locked down soon enough for this not to have gotten into many nursing homes before it's back under control.

VillageIdiot71

quokula wrote: »

This is proving that, the same as everywhere else in the world, it's physically impossible to let an invisible virus run rampant in the community while having a magic barrier that will reliably protect the vulnerable. Hopefully we've locked down soon enough for this not to have gotten into many nursing homes before it's back under control.

And do you think we can go on having lockdowns, as and when required?

givyjoe

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

I think you have put your finger on it.

To my mind, I've no doubt it would be expensive and complex for the HSE to get deeply involved in the management and operation of private nursing homes. I'm sure HSE nursing and care staff would be profoundly wary of any suggestion they should stand ready for redeployment into those settings.

But it would be much, much, less expensive than closing down huge amounts of the economy by edict. It's actually incredible that this is the option we are choosing.

Spending literally billions on PUP, rather than concentrating resources on the few areas that have particular risks. That's the point, surely.

Precisely, it's a really, really, really unsophisticated game of whack-a-mole. "oh high numbers.. lets lock it down". Absolutely no nuanced thinking on whether is it really the best option to lock everything down and throw money at that, rather then spend the money to massively ramp up capacity in hospitals, track and trace and whatever else might be needed to protect nursing homes. Maybe they have looked at everything that could possibly work and lockdown is the only realistic tool they have, but it's highly unlikely given the past performance of the people and organisations involved.

suicide_circus

quokula wrote: »

This is proving that, the same as everywhere else in the world, it's physically impossible to let an invisible virus run rampant in the community while having a magic barrier that will reliably protect the vulnerable. Hopefully we've locked down soon enough for this not to have gotten into many nursing homes before it's back under control.

We live in a very "everything is someone's fault" era.

quokula

givyjoe wrote: »

Precisely, it's a really, really, really unsophisticated game of whack-a-mole. "oh high numbers.. lets lock it down". Absolutely no nuanced thinking on whether is it really the best option to lock everything down and throw money at that, rather then spend the money to massively ramp up capacity in hospitals, track and trace and whatever else might be needed to protect nursing homes. Maybe they have looked at everything that could possibly work and lockdown is the only realistic tool they have, but it's highly unlikely given the past performance of the people and organisations involved.

It's a lot of money on PUP, but the other options you're putting forward are just ill-thought out aspirational wishes that there are easy solutions when there simply aren't. You can't ramp up staff in hospitals or nursing homes or contact tracing to keep up with a virus that keeps doubling every two weeks, as it had been before lockdown. Do you realise how hilariously stupid it is to think we could keep doubling our national hospital capacity every two weeks? How are we going to find enough people and train them in that amount of time? The hiring would actually need to progress even faster than this as an ever increasing number of staff have to self isolate at any given time.

There's a reason why everyone in the world with a bit of education and expertise on the matter is ultimately arriving at the same solution of controlling the spread, instead of pretending it's physically possible to let it spread like wildfire while somehow keeping hospitals and nursing homes ticking over as normal.

Sardonicat

suicide_circus wrote: »

We live in a very "everything is someone's fault" era.

Everything is someone else's fault would be more accurate.

nthclare

Lockdowns are like burning down a house instead of finding the mouse and leave him off somewhere he can get fresh air.

As for the nursing homes, they're lacking staff and creativity.

During a pandemic they should be treating their clients like human beings and bringing them out for some fresh air, a weekly trip to the Woods or Lakeshore, River walks etc or if the coast is nearby.

Imagine being an elderly man or woman who lived rurally and now and again they get a craving for the smell of the sea air, or that amazing smell of soil and leaves decaying in the late autumn.
See a few swans on a lake or watch the guls glide in a harbor..

But no they're locked up in a home run by some cash hungry business person who's motivated by profit and cutting corners left right and centre.
I've heard horror stories about people in care and of course there's really good people working in those homes too and would love to Push Jack or Mary along the prom or link their arms and let them experience the wind on their face,see families and life as they enjoyed it.

But sadly a lot of the burocrats and business people who are managing these places aren't themselves connected to nature or people.
And in their heads it's the same aul narcissistic response, sure aren't we giving them a bed,heat and care.
What more do they want.

And don't get me started at how condensing staff can be to the old dears...
Not even a book or magazine to look at with nice pictures...

DaSilva

Deleted User wrote: »

Outbreak across Europe have DOUBLED in the last 3 weeks. That is as unprecedented as the pandemic itself. It’s showing no signs of slowing down or going away. We’re not the only country struggling. It’s up to each and every one of us to do our best to care for ourselves and our loved ones. Simple things by
(1) wearing a face mask
(2) were a face mask properly ie covering both mouth and nose.

Except in Spain mask usage is supposedly very high and carries a punishment if not done, yet their numbers are still going crazy.

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

I think you have put your finger on it.

To my mind, I've no doubt it would be expensive and complex for the HSE to get deeply involved in the management and operation of private nursing homes. I'm sure HSE nursing and care staff would be profoundly wary of any suggestion they should stand ready for redeployment into those settings.

But it would be much, much, less expensive than closing down huge amounts of the economy by edict. It's actually incredible that this is the option we are choosing.

Spending literally billions on PUP, rather than concentrating resources on the few areas that have particular risks. That's the point, surely.

While I do question the restrictions in a lot of cases, I am not totally against them, I believe right now due to the level of community transmission we actually don't really have many options left.

quokula wrote: »

This is proving that, the same as everywhere else in the world, it's physically impossible to let an invisible virus run rampant in the community while having a magic barrier that will reliably protect the vulnerable. Hopefully we've locked down soon enough for this not to have gotten into many nursing homes before it's back under control.

This is the real problem, the way everything is presented as this false dilemma between heavy restrictions and no restrictions.

There are other methods available to use, but everybody is stuck in their failing strategies and too tribal to think outside the box.

givyjoe

quokula wrote: »

It's a lot of money on PUP, but the other options you're putting forward are just ill-thought out aspirational wishes that there are easy solutions when there simply aren't. You can't ramp up staff in hospitals or nursing homes or contact tracing to keep up with a virus that keeps doubling every two weeks, as it had been before lockdown. Do you realise how hilariously stupid it is to think we could keep doubling our national hospital capacity every two weeks? How are we going to find enough people and train them in that amount of time? The hiring would actually need to progress even faster than this as an ever increasing number of staff have to self isolate at any given time.

There's a reason why everyone in the world with a bit of education and expertise on the matter is ultimately arriving at the same solution of controlling the spread, instead of pretending it's physically possible to let it spread like wildfire while somehow keeping hospitals and nursing homes ticking over as normal.

Excuse me? Outrageous response. Do you have any comprehension of the catastrophic, potentially long term damage rolling lockdowns (which it seems we're going for) are likely to do? The economic damage, the long (and short) term implications are enormous.The original lockdown was supposedly to give us time to prepare and put the required structures in place. I had no problem with it. I do have a problem with it now as we seem to have absolutely no plan whatsoever on how to end it and any hint of a plan to avoid us needing to do it again. We had the longest, harshest lockdown in Europe and we're the first one back into our second lockdown. That alone is an indicator of the mismanagement of the crisis. As for ramping up, we seem to have made next to no attempt to do so, the continual spin up to this point is that they had, and continued to do so, it clearly isn't the case.

If this is all so inevitable, how is that Germany for example is not in their second lockdown and didn't spend as long as we did in ours.. hmm, i wonder why.

Finally, keep your snarky condescending jibes about education to yourself, the absolute irony. Have you missed the W.H.O. not recommending lockdown as the primary means of mitigating the spread of the virus? It's not sustainable, simply really. I assume you think perpetual lockdown cycles is an effective and sustainable way to manage this do you? I'm by no means anti-lockdown, but blindly going in and out of them is a recipe for complete and utter disaster. The rollout of fines now, instead of before level 3 failed and we now enter the financially crippling level 5, is the latest example of mismanaging the crisis.

wheresthebeef

The Army Medical Corps have been training since February for exactly this eventuality. They can provide support in non-clinical areas and some would be trained to work alongside experienced care staff especially given how many nursing home residents would require assistance of 2 people at a time to wash/dress etc...
Many of them are also trained swab takers for testing.
We had an Army Doctor visit our nursing home to train staff in PPE usage based on their experience working in areas hit by Ebola. Army are more skilled than people realise and are certainly willing to help if they are deployed to do so. The Army Medical Corps has approximately 200 members if I recall correctly.

And then there is this:

Concerns over loss of nursing home staff to the HSE:

So while the HSE are meant to support Nursing Homes, it appears they are also sabotaging them by recruiting their staff for other public health roles?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

And then there is this:

Concerns over loss of nursing home staff to the HSE:

So while the HSE are meant to support Nursing Homes, it appears they are also sabotaging them by recruiting their staff for other public health roles?

What happened to all those nurses who came home at the start of the pandemic? Have they all left again?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

What happened to all those nurses who came home at the start of the pandemic? Have they all left again?

I don't know (I'm not a nurse).

My daughter had to have a test last week (-) and the swabbers were all army medics.

I know one girl personally who was a HCA in my mothers nursing home. She resigned in June, she is only 23 and was overwhelmed by what happened in April/May when multiple residents she cared for daily died over the period of a few weeks. I don't know if its classed as PTSD, but she says she'll never work in a healthcare setting again.

jd1983

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What happened to all those nurses who came home at the start of the pandemic? Have they all left again?

Despite the amount of people and groups that are being blamed on this thread, I find it very surprising that Tony Holahan's name hasn't come up once. He's been either the CMO or deputy CMO since 2001. AFAIK this coincides with the privatisation of nursing homes. Surely HIQA reports into him and he has a much broader remit than Paul Reid.

nthclare

nthclare wrote: »

Lockdowns are like burning down a house instead of finding the mouse and leave him off somewhere he can get fresh air.

As for the nursing homes, they're lacking staff and creativity.

During a pandemic they should be treating their clients like human beings and bringing them out for some fresh air, a weekly trip to the Woods or Lakeshore, River walks etc or if the coast is nearby.

Imagine being an elderly man or woman who lived rurally and now and again they get a craving for the smell of the sea air, or that amazing smell of soil and leaves decaying in the late autumn.
See a few swans on a lake or watch the guls glide in a harbor..

But no they're locked up in a home run by some cash hungry business person who's motivated by profit and cutting corners left right and centre.
I've heard horror stories about people in care and of course there's really good people working in those homes too and would love to Push Jack or Mary along the prom or link their arms and let them experience the wind on their face,see families and life as they enjoyed it.

But sadly a lot of the burocrats and business people who are managing these places aren't themselves connected to nature or people.
And in their heads it's the same aul narcissistic response, sure aren't we giving them a bed,heat and care.
What more do they want.

And don't get me started at how condensing staff can be to the old dears...
Not even a book or magazine to look at with nice pictures...

Off topic, but I don't know what the nursing homes were like where you live, nthclare, but what you are describing is a world away from the nursing home my mother lived in. Residents were taken out to the local parks, beauty spots, and the cinema regularly. TV and radio in every residents room, and access to the library. They had an extensive activities programme, with different activities planned for every single day. Live music and entertainment was brought in regularly too. Nobody was left sitting in a corner without even a book to look at, ever.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know (I'm not a nurse).

My daughter had to have a test last week (-) and the swabbers were all army medics.

I know one girl personally who was a HCA in my mothers nursing home. She resigned in June, she is only 23 and was overwhelmed by what happened in April/May when multiple residents she cared for daily died over the period of a few weeks. I don't know if its classed as PTSD, but she says she'll never work in a healthcare setting again.

That’s so sad. I’ve got the greatest respect for care assistants. It’s not a job I could do for any money. I hope that she gets more suitable employment.

BrianD3

nthclare wrote: »

Lockdowns are like burning down a house instead of finding the mouse and leave him off somewhere he can get fresh air.

As for the nursing homes, they're lacking staff and creativity.

During a pandemic they should be treating their clients like human beings and bringing them out for some fresh air, a weekly trip to the Woods or Lakeshore, River walks etc or if the coast is nearby.

Imagine being an elderly man or woman who lived rurally and now and again they get a craving for the smell of the sea air, or that amazing smell of soil and leaves decaying in the late autumn.
See a few swans on a lake or watch the guls glide in a harbor..

But no they're locked up in a home run by some cash hungry business person who's motivated by profit and cutting corners left right and centre.
I've heard horror stories about people in care and of course there's really good people working in those homes too and would love to Push Jack or Mary along the prom or link their arms and let them experience the wind on their face,see families and life as they enjoyed it.

But sadly a lot of the burocrats and business people who are managing these places aren't themselves connected to nature or people.
And in their heads it's the same aul narcissistic response, sure aren't we giving them a bed,heat and care.
What more do they want.

And don't get me started at how condensing staff can be to the old dears...
Not even a book or magazine to look at with nice pictures...

It's no better in public nursing homes in my experience. In some ways worse as they are invariably more expensive than private and people make the dangerous assumption that the State will look after residents better than the profit driven private sector.

I've had relatives in both public and private. Public was over 2000 euros per week. Care was variable and short staffing was happening all the time. In terms of small luxuries, in their rooms the residents had ancient portable TVs with Saorview and mostly missing remote controls. When I enquired about the nursing home getting a universal remote control for my relative's TV, they refused and gave the excuse that "visitors keep stealing them". So bought one myself. That is just one small example, there were other much more expensive things that we ended up buying ourselves to assist with my relative's care because the HSE just wouldn't.

Also, just before Covid hit this year I had another elderly relative in a major public hospital. Shambles would be my description, short staffing, care variable and a bad attitude from some staff.

That is one of my main worries with Covid - no visitors in hospitals and nursing homes means nobody to advocate for elderly patients (with non Covid issues like broken hips etc.) to ensure that HSE provides adequate care.