Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

Cluedo Monopoly

Straight away I wondered why Regina had taken to the airwaves to slam the report. She did say that O'Gorman is appearing before the Seanad on Tuesday (she is the Leader of the Seanad). Perhaps the government have realised the mistake they have made and how much this whitewash will backfire. They cannot rewind the clock but maybe they instructed Regina to start a rearguard move to save some face. Time will tell. I am going to email Regina nevertheless and encourage her.

steddyeddy

There's an unfortunate reality for people who grow up in abusive homes and that is that when you grow up you leave yourself open to other abusive relationships. I feel that post colonial Ireland after hundreds of years of abuse went straight into another abusive relationship with the Catholic Church.

stockshares

stockshares wrote: »

Yes she has real authority and doesn't waffle .

Hugh O Connell has a piece in the info which was referenced a few times by the panel. I haven't read it but I'll try and find it and out it up here. It might not be on the website yet.

This is Hugh's article.

Article
When some 500 survivors of mother and baby homes logged onto a webinar last Tuesday lunchtime, they were confronted with an image of two besuited men either side of an oval table in the Sycamore Room of Government Buildings. Officials wearing facemasks sat socially distanced behind the two men.

It was certainly not the most welcoming environment for those women and former child residents, who had waited five years to find out what was in the Mother and Baby Homes Commission's landmark report.

Worse, many could not access the nearly 3,000-page report that was being shared electronically on the Cisco Webex video conference call. They were told they could read the report online over an hour later when it was made public.

For now, they had to make do with what the two men, Taoiseach Micheál Martin and Children's Minister Roderic O'Gorman, were telling them, both having had the report since last October and who had read it over Christmas.

This unfair imbalance was not lost on many who were watching. "Some survivors felt blindsided - they were hearing about a report they hadn't seen," said one person on the call who asked to remain anonymous.

Historian Catherine Corless, whose work led to the Commission's establishment, called the webinar a "whitewash, full of political jargon". Susan Lohan, co-founder of the Adoption Rights Alliance, went further, describing it as "an exercise in contempt and mismanagement".

As one of those on the Government side of the webinar later conceded: "What you had was two people telling you how it was, their opinions, and not the survivors' opinions. So it was a sh*tshow from their point of view but logistically, I don't know what more you could have done."

Despite Covid-19, what happened could have been avoided. The previous day, Ms Lohan asked for some hard copies of the report in advance of the webinar. But she was told by an official: "The hard copies were not intended to be an advance copy, as all survivors will be able to access the report online at the same time tomorrow afternoon

Ms Lohan responded: "This is a huge misstep on the part of the department, when they know full well that the average age of the mothers, caught up in the various institutions, is over 65 and that significant numbers have neither broadband, computers, nor printers to access an online report and some also lack the skills to utilise such resources.

The Department's approach was that the report had to be handled confidentially - at the ultimate expense of the survivors.

Mr O'Gorman told the Sunday Independent: "We were concerned to limit opportunities for leaks. Every survivor who wants a hard copy of the abridged or full version will be given one.

The Department has been distributing dozens of copies of an abridged version of the report in recent days. An audio recording of the executive summary and some of the testimonies is also being organised for those who have reading difficulties. This weekend, some survivors who have waited years are now waiting for the postman to deliver their copy of the report.

The upset over its publication and distribution only compounded the suffering of many vocal survivors who were deeply unhappy with its findings, conclusions and recommendations last week.

Beyond the distressing figures - 56,000 unmarried mothers, 57,000 children, of whom 9,000 died in the institutions that the Commission investigated - there was a sense from reading the opening pages of the report that the horrific personal testimonies of so many were relegated in favour of a clinical adjudication on what happened in these institutions between 1922 and 1998 - a span of 76 years. "There is no evidence that women were forced to enter Mother and Baby Homes by Church or State authorities. Most women had no alternative," the report stated. "It must be acknowledged that these institutions under investigation provided a refuge - a harsh refuge in some cases - when the families provided no refuge at all," it added.

Mr O'Gorman has urged survivors to read the report, but has acknowledged the mixed reaction. "We did get comments from others thanking us," he insisted on Friday.

While there was much in the report to highlight the utter failure of the State, its institutions, the church and religious orders, the contention that this was somehow a societal failure for which every citizen at that time, and particularly the families of these women, bore some level of responsibility was particularly jarring.

Irish society and its citizenry were influenced by those who held the most power. For decades, the most powerful and far-reaching institution in this State was the Catholic Church and its dogma. When we were at our most Catholic, we were at our least Christian.

For some survivors, the Taoiseach's contention that "we did this to ourselves" and the report's findings presented "all of society was complicit" was equally upsetting.

Ms Lohan said the Taoiseach was "trivialising" issues and distracting from what was "forced adoption, illegal adoption, child trafficking, enforced labour" in the homes.

"If I had spent two years incarcerated in a punitive abusive environment, I would not be talking about the heartache I felt," she said. "Likewise, no natural mother has ever led her testimony to me with the amount of stairs they had wash. They always lead with: 'They took my child.'"

The Commission found there was "very little evidence children were forcibly taken from their mothers". For many survivors, this is particularly hurtful as it was at the very core of their suffering. The Commission's view was that while it accepts the mothers did not have much choice but to give up their child, "it is not the same as 'forced' adoption

It was notable in the Taoiseach's State apology on Wednesday, there was no mention of adoption, forced or otherwise, or to children being taken from their mothers. That the apology went ahead - against the wishes of some survivors and Opposition parties who wanted a chance to read the report - only added to the sense that the Government could have done so much better this week.

"I felt the Taoiseach very clearly acknowledged the fault of the State. He apologised on behalf of the failures of successive governments and he pointed out the failure of the churches, both Catholic and Church of Ireland, and congregations," Mr O'Gorman insisted. "I felt the Taoiseach very clearly acknowledged the responsibility of the State."

A source close to the Taoiseach said there were "different views" among survivors about whether the apology should go ahead, but insisted: "The apology was acknowledged as heartfelt and the State will be judged on actions, not words."

These actions, which may ultimately be what the Government is judged on, involve 22 commitments spanning themes such as the aforementioned apology, a survivor-centred approach, access to personal information and databases, education and research, memorialisation, and dignified burial.

Access to personal information and restorative recognition are among the most pressing. Previous efforts by Katherine Zappone to legislate for adopted people to access their birth information ran into the sand because, in effect, one person's right to information was blocked by another person's right to privacy. But even the most sceptical of the survivors' groups are emboldened by one element of the Taoiseach's apology on Wednesday when he said: "Access to one's own identity is a basic right.

Ms Lohan said: "The Government now recognises the fundamental right to know one's identity. The birth certs are just part of that story.

"We will need our files, like a hospital record or a medical record. We'll have all of that, thank you very much."

Mr O'Gorman, who is working closely with Attorney General Paul Gallagher on the issue, now intends to use legislation grounded in EU-wide data protection law (GDPR) that would give a person an inherent right to access information about themselves.

Amid Opposition protestations over the proposed end-of-year deadline for this law, Mr O'Gorman responded: "If it's possible to get it done more quickly, we will do so."

Details of a restorative recognition scheme are expected to be fleshed out by the end of April following work by an interdepartmental group of senior civil servants

The Commission's controversial recommendation that women in mother and baby homes post-1973 should not have access to such a scheme - because by that stage an unmarried mother's allowance had been introduced - is likely to be reviewed.

Mandarins in the Department of Public Expenditure are likely to express misgivings about the open-ended cost of a redress scheme, but the Taoiseach has said he expects a significant contribution from religious orders.

Mr O'Gorman is of the view religious authorities should make a practical contribution. He wrote to the religious congregations that ran the network of homes and to the primates of the Catholic Church and Church of Ireland last Thursday, looking for apologies, contributions to a redress scheme and access to institutional records.

Labour leader Alan Kelly said he will draft legislation to seize assets of religious orders if they are not prepared to give a fair contribution.

Asked about this, the minister did not rule out supporting such a bill in the event of an impasse with religious orders. "I think the Government will act appropriately in a situation where there isn't genuine engagement," Mr O'Gorman said.

For the survivors, the wait for restorative justice goes on. The Government is planning a comprehensive response. But we've been here before - as survivors know too well - where pledges are made, but cooperation is hard to come by and deadlines slip. The media and the Government's agenda moves on.

My Comments
I wasn't aware of this before but I'm truely shocked at the arrogance of Judge Yvonne Murphy recommending that women in mother and baby homes post-1973 should not have access to a redress scheme - because by that stage an unmarried mother's allowance had been introduced.

It's like she is God sitting in judgement of these Women.

To make such a recommendation in such a casual way knowing that her decision would have a serious impact on those women is actually heartless and entirely lacking in compassion .

Her credibility is really damaged by this report .

stockshares

This is another article from the Indo. It does not say who wrote it. It is about a woman(Helen Martin) who was adopted out of Saint Patrick's Home.

Article
You don't want her - she's an awful scrawny thing," said the nun to the married woman who stopped in front of my crib.

The woman was invited to choose a baby from a large number of young children in cribs that filled a big room in Saint Patrick's Home in Dublin in September 1963

She was asked to choose a Baby from a large number of young children in cribs that filled a big room in Saint Patrick's Home in Dublin in September 1963.

The woman began to cry. She felt she couldn't make such a choice. She and her husband expected the nuns would have handed them a baby to adopt and she was overwhelmed when told she must choose a child from all the babies in front of her.

"This baby will be our baby," she said, finally, despite the warning from the nun that I was so scrawny and, as it turned out, clinically malnourished.

There was a number on my cot and a name, Anna Maria, given to me by my birth mother. The nun told the new adoptive mother to disregard the name and give me a new one. My birth mother, Annette, was not in the room at that important moment. She was working as a cleaner somewhere in that big building.

Annette was 18 and had been put to work in St Patrick's Mother and Baby Home on the Navan Road in the city. She had to work in exchange for giving birth to me in the institution. She continued working there for six months since giving birth. She had desperately wanted to keep me but encountered too many obstacles.

The young mothers in the home always knew the sound of tyres on gravel outside the building meant visitors were coming to take away one of their babies. When one of the young mothers told Annette that I was being taken away, she became hysterical and was so upset she felt she was "going to die". She never met my adoptive parents.

My new mother and father had brought along my new grandfather on their visit. He asked the nun what would happen to my birth mother now that I was being adopted. The nun said she must continue working in the institution "to pay her way".

My grandfather took out £50 from his pocket, which was a huge sum of money in those days. He gave the money to the nun and told her: "You will let her go now."

So Annette left the institution on the same day as me.

That was 58 years ago. My name is now Helen Martin and I live in Foxrock in Dublin. I am retired from my job as a sales and marketing manager. My own three children are aged in their 30s.

It has been an eventful week with the publication of the final report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and I welcome this opportunity to share my own story with Sunday Independent readers.

As a child, I felt like a celebrity when I told people that I was adopted. I had kind, generous and incredibly loving parents. We lived in Stillorgan in Dublin and I went to private school at Muckross Park in Donnybrook.

I never questioned my parentage and it never bothered me until I was married and was giving birth to my first child. I began to dwell on how any mother could give their child away.

At the maternity hospital in Holles Street, I had to fill in forms which asked questions about my birth mother's medical history which I could not answer. Neither did my adoptive parents know anything about my birth mother.

After the birth of my second child, I decided I must find out about my birth mother. But I was not legally entitled to see my original birth certificate with the name of my birth mother. I had a different form of birth certificate for adopted persons which did not contain the name of a birth mother.

As an adopted person, I was banned from having an original birth cert. I learned from fellow members of a support group that it was possible to get my hands on my original birth cert by illegal means.

By clandestine methods, I discovered there was only one girl born in St Patrick's on the day of my birth in March 1963, which led me to discover my original name. This allowed me to apply for a birth certificate in my original name.

I emerged from the office in Lombard Street in Dublin in 1994 holding my original birth cert for the first time. I remember sitting in my car and reading that my mother was Annette Newe.

Further investigation revealed the surprise that Annette was also born in St Patrick's Home to a teenage mother in 1944. I also managed to get a marriage certificate for Annette and I felt like I was a private investigator.

I became a mother for a third time and continued my investigations. By then, St Patrick's had been demolished. The religious order of nuns that had run the institution, the Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul, were based in Northbrook Road in Dublin 4.

I pretended I was a journalist who was writing an article on the religious order and I visited the nuns at Northbrook Road where I was ushered into their parlour and offered tea and scones.

But as I sat down with one of the nuns who had worked in St Patrick's, I revealed my identity and told her I wanted any files they had on me. The nun refused and I told her I knew about the claims of 'selling babies' for adoption and told them I would return in two days for my file.

Two days later, I returned. No tea and scones this time. I was shown inside where I was given a file containing my records. Inside the file was a note which said, 'Best of luck'.

I was then able to go to an address in Leixlip where Annette had lived in the past with her aunt. Her aunt was dead, but neighbours remembered her.

Annette was originally from Tipperary. Her own mother had given her away to her sister to raise in Leixlip while she moved to England where she later married and had a family.

I traced Annette's current address in Roscommon, where she was living with her husband and three daughters. I contacted the Barnardos charity and told them I was determined to meet her. Eventually, Barnardos wrote to her and she agreed to meet me at a hotel in Athlone. I remember stopping the car on the way to get sick as I was so nervous.

Barnardos provided two counsellors for the meeting, one for me and one for Annette. When we met it was just incredible. I was the absolute spit of her. We ended up hugging and laughing and crying. We thanked the counsellors and asked them to leave and we talked and talked.

Annette said I was the result of a summertime romance with a colleague in a hotel where they worked. Their relationship ended. She had pleaded with her aunt to be allowed to bring her baby home, but she was refused. She did not want to give me up for adoption but she was made to feel she had no option.

She recalled the misery of St Patrick's Home where she was treated like "a nobody". She gave birth with no one to hold her hand or comfort her. She thought her body would break in half with pain during labour. A nun told her the pain was part of her penance.

When she left, she was told that I was being taken to the USA to live. She got a live-in job at the Montrose Hotel on the Stillorgan Road in Dublin, while I was taken to my new home in Stillorgan.

Over the next few years, my family would have brought me for meals at the Montrose Hotel and it was likely that Annette may have served us our meals.

A few years later, Annette moved to England where she worked in several jobs, including driving a bus in Birmingham. She eventually returned to Dublin and married a man from Roscommon. They lived in Goatstown in Dublin. We were amazed to discover we had lived less than a three-minute walk from each other for several years.

Annette and her husband later moved to Roscommon where they lived with their three daughters. But within a couple of years of me being reunited with her, Annette died suddenly at the age of 56, in 2001. She died before getting around to telling her family about me. I remember going to her funeral and commiserating with my own sisters as their mother's friend.

I experienced some very difficult years after that and had feelings of abandonment and I sought counselling. Eight years after Annette's death, I got a phone call from her youngest daughter, Vicki, who was then aged in her late-20s

She told me that she and her sisters had wondered about my friendship with their mother. I looked so like Annette and they wondered if I was a cousin. I said 'No.'

They wondered if I could be a sister of Annette's that no-one knew about? I said 'No.'

"Are you a relation?" she persisted. I replied: "I'm her daughter."

As it turned out, it was the beginning of a new joyful era for me when I was welcomed warmly into Annette's family circle. I was invited to lots of family celebrations. Our families regularly attended events together and we've all gone on holidays together.

The commission's final report published last week does not give the full picture of the suffering inflicted nationwide by the system of mother and baby homes which was the responsibility of the State and church working hand in hand.

Women, and some men too, were treated appallingly by the system. There was so much hurt and pain suffered by generations in these homes. There is no eraser to take away the pain of the women and children of those institutions.

I'm glad there has been an apology, but Taoiseach Micheál Martin's apology was too little too late. I don't blame him personally as it was a poisoned chalice for him.

There needs to be proper documentation of actions the Government must take to help all the people who want to find the identity of their birth moms and who still cannot access the documents relating to their own births and earliest medical records.

And what about redress? To say they are going to give advanced medical cards - like, seriously? That's like slapping a band-aid on someone who has been cut open with a knife.

Implementing real improvements to help the lives of survivors of mother and baby homes would be a fitting tribute to Annette

Thelonious Monk

I find it mad that people still want the Angelus, even after all this. Every time I hear it I'm reminded of paedophiles and rapists and dead babies in septic tanks. People seem to identify with it as part of their Irishness or something, same with the silly Catholic traditions, even though they don't believe in God or practice at all.
I really wish we could get the bastards out of any national institutions, it's ridiculous in this day and age.

mrslancaster

the numbers are truly shocking. If there were 57000 babies born in the 14 institutions included in the report the actual numbers must be far higher. I read somewhere that there was over 180 institutions & agencies involved throughout the country so how does the small sample included give a full picture.

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I find it mad that people still want the Angelus, even after all this. Every time I hear it I'm reminded of paedophiles and rapists and dead babies in septic tanks. People seem to identify with it as part of their Irishness or something, same with the silly Catholic traditions, even though they don't believe in God or practice at all.
I really wish we could get the bastards out of any national institutions, it's ridiculous in this day and age.

This country needs to be de Catholicised, just as Germany was de Nazified. But ah shur the older people find comfort in it, etc etc.

Cluedo Monopoly

One thing really bothers me.

Why are the nuns and religious orders so silent on this? Why doesn't one single nun come out and say the report got it wrong? Why doesn't one single nun, as a witness, come out and say; Yes those mothers were horribly abused or Yes we forged adoption documents or Yes we forcibly took children off mothers or Yes we put the babies in a dying room and they died from lethal neglect or Yes we forced mothers/babies into vaccine trials or Yes we threw dead babies in a pit over there or Yes we destroyed records to cover us legally.

Why are they so silent? Why are they allowed be so silent? Not a single nun. Are they still inhuman in 2021?

All they have to do is release yet another apology statement. Is that it? I'd have them all up in the witness stand. Why do the cowardly Irish public give them a free pass?

Vile. This country is still warped. Future generations will be horrified we allowed this.

whisky_galore

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

One thing really bothers me.

Why are the nuns and religious orders so silent on this? Why doesn't a single nun come out and say; Yes we abused those mothers or Yes we forged adoption documents or Yes we forcibly took children off mothers or Yes we put the babies in a dying room and they died from lethal neglect or Yes we forced mothers/babies into vaccine trials or Yes we threw dead babies in a pit over there or Yes we destroyed records to cover us legally.

Why are they so silent? Why are they allowed be so silent? Non a single nun. Are they still inhuman in 2021?

All they have to do is release yet another apology statement. Is that it? I'd have them all up in the witness stand. Why do the cowardly Irish public give them a free pass?

Vile.

Towing the company line I guess. Very Catholic but not very Christian.

Cluedo Monopoly

whisky_galore wrote: »

Towing the company line I guess. Very Catholic but not very Christian.

Every single one of them? Not one with a sense of decency/humanity after all this time and all the atrocities? Do they believe a word of their own religion?
The commission heaped abuse on abuse to the survivors this week. How can they still stand idly by?

mariaalice

whisky_galore wrote: »

Towing the company line I guess. Very Catholic but not very Christian.

Most must be dead at this stage.

Cluedo Monopoly

mariaalice wrote: »

Most must be dead at this stage.

The last home closed in 1998. There are plenty alive.
Not a single nun has ever come forward.

Thelonious Monk

whisky_galore wrote: »

This country needs to be de Catholicised, just as Germany was de Nazified. But ah shur the older people find comfort in it, etc etc.

Look at the article on the journal today, most of the commenters are in favour of keeping it and are calling people who want it gone snowflake hard leftists and stuff.
They are 100% brainwashed, it's utterly bizarre.

Thelonious Monk

whisky_galore wrote: »

This country needs to be de Catholicised, just as Germany was de Nazified. But ah shur the older people find comfort in it, etc etc.

It was the older people's generation and beyond who felt the worst of their horrible abuse.

saabsaab

whisky_galore wrote: »

This country needs to be de Catholicised, just as Germany was de Nazified. But ah shur the older people find comfort in it, etc etc.

Its not just the Catholics that were involved.

whisky_galore

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Every single one of them? Not one with a sense of decency/humanity after all this time and all the atrocities? Do they believe a word of their own religion?
The commission heaped abuse on abuse to the survivors this week. How can they still stand idly by?

RCC has a lot of assets to protect. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've been cowed into not making any off the cuff statements. In a couple of decades all will be silent one way or the other, just play the waiting game.

mariaalice

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The last home closed in 1998. There are plenty alive.
Not a single nun has ever come forward.

The ones that were around in the 80s and 90s were very different but to be fair there must be a few nuns in their 80s and 90s who were involved in running the home still around.

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It was the older people's generation and beyond who felt the worst of their horrible abuse.

I think you've answered that anomaly yourself above.

walshb

whisky_galore wrote: »

This country needs to be de Catholicised, just as Germany was de Nazified. But ah shur the older people find comfort in it, etc etc.

Have you a time machine?

The church today is not nearly as influential and domineering as it was years ago..

No need at all to break/smash/eradicate...

How about moving on, working with, healing, progressing?

Faith and religion is still quite important in many people’s lives..

You want to rid us of this?

How about you go about your life and not engage with it, and others can make their own choice?

The people find comfort in it slur is part of the problem. How about some tolerance for people?

Cluedo Monopoly

I bought all the Sunday papers today. The letters in the Indo are powerful. So much anger out there even towards the Sunday Indo themselves for publishing their scoop last Sunday.

Cluedo Monopoly

whisky_galore wrote: »

RCC has a lot of assets to protect. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've been cowed into not making any off the cuff statements. In a couple of decades all will be silent one way or the other, just play the waiting game.

Have the nuns been sworn to an oath of silence in the same way as Fr Brendan's Smyths' abuse children? I wonder.
Will they be kicked out of their retirement homes if they speak up?

Thelonious Monk

walshb wrote: »

Have you a time machine?

The church today is not nearly as influential and domineering as it was years ago..

No need at all to break/smash/eradicate...

How about moving on, working with, healing, progressing?

Faith and religion is still quite important in many people’s lives..

You want to rid us of this?

How about you go about your life and not engage with it, and others can make their own choice?

The people find comfort in it slur is part of the problem. How about some tolerance for people?

Fair enough. Go ahead and keep worshipping a church famous for f*cking children and enslaving women and throwing dead babies around the place.
Absolute nutjobs if you're having anything to do with them at this stage. Why should anyone have any respect or tolerance for this organisation or its followers?
Go ahead and do the catholic thing but get them out of the schools and hospitals and get rid of the bloody Angelus, I don't need to hear nor see anything to do with these weirdos.
If these people give you comfort you need to take a long look at yourself.

mrslancaster

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Have the nuns been sworn to an oath of silence in the same way as Fr Brendan's Smyths' abuse children? I wonder.
Will they be kicked out of their retirement homes if they speak up?

Don't all religious agree to obedience to the church and there's probably no nuns who worked in M&B homes during the 40/70's still alive. I agree there must be some people who know what went on but it would probably be from later decades when things had changed & those institutions were run differently. A book written by midwife June Goulding who worked in bessborough in the 50's was shocking.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-midwife-remembers-the-banished-lives-behind-the-light-in-the-window-1.170737?mode=amp

walshb

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Fair enough. Go ahead and keep worshipping a church famous for f*cking children and enslaving women and throwing dead babies around the place.
Absolute nutjobs if you're having anything to do with them at this stage. Why should anyone have any respect or tolerance for this organisation or its followers?
Go ahead and do the catholic thing but get them out of the schools and hospitals and get rid of the bloody Angelus, I don't need to hear nor see anything to do with these weirdos.
If these people give you comfort you need to take a long look at yourself.

I don’t worship the church..

Not sure how you came to think this..

I don’t even attend church. Not because of a dislike/hate, just not on my radar..

But this 2021 and recent view of the church and the calls from some people to smash it...not something that sits right with me..

Thelonious Monk

walshb wrote: »

I don’t worship the church..

Not sure how you came to think this..

I don’t even attend church. Not because of a dislike/hate, just not on my radar..

But this 2021 and recent view of the church and the calls from some people to smash it...not something that sits right with me..

Sorry I picked you up wrong.
If they want to carry on as in churches etc I'm ok with that for now, it'll die out eventually, but they shouldn't be involved in schools and hospitals in my opinion.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0117/1190074-mother-and-baby-homes-vaccine-trials/

Medical research on children at mother-and-baby homes.

It said scientists lacked the correct research licences, and failed to comply with contemporary regulatory standards.

It said these trials would have been a basic breach of the Nuremberg Code, following the trial of Nazi doctors accused of conducting murderous and torturous human experiments in the Nazi concentration camps during World War II.

However, the vaccine trials are not mentioned specifically in the commission's recommendations, or in Chapter 36 on Human Rights.

It does find that adopted people have a right to their birth information and medical records.

This is significant when redress may require proof of abuse.

stockshares

Some of the Women who gave testimony to the commission have a podcast on the Irish Times website.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-women-s-podcast/the-irish-times-women-s-podcast-ep-466-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-1.4458448?mode=amp

The Women who contribute are named below.
https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1350834534594523137?s=19

stockshares

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Must say I find it slightly Wierd how there has been this almost coordinated backlash against the report by various politicians and media etc.

The latest is Brendan connor has asked when will the commissioners who wrote the report come forward and “explain themselves”

Simon McGarr has an excellent summary of the GOVs U-Turn
below.
https://thegist.substack.com/p/the-gist-drop-the-dead-donkey?r=43vhb&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=twitter

The Mother and Baby Home Commission of Inquiry spent six years and €11 million or so euro compiling a report which, like Dracula when the blinds are pulled back, has crumbled to ash the moment it was exposed to sunlight.

The report did ensure that a stack of documents were dug up and it will be valuable midden for future researchers to mine. But as to its conclusions, and any suggestion that it might stand as the final word on the issue, the Government went out on the airwaves today to declare a Great Reverse. The signal was for all parties to toss the report it launched with great fanfare and a welcoming webinar last week under a passing bus.

Senator Regina Doherty kicked off the new position, calling it ‘cold’ and ‘callous’ and backpeddaling on the now-failed Plan A of accepting the report.

“we accepted the report and I think that's wrong”

On Gavan Reilly’s radio show, the Minister for Children, Roderic O’Gorman sharply departed from the Commission report’s attempts to claim there was no evidence that adoptions were every anything but voluntary. He said they’d taken a ‘legalistic approach’ in finding these women weren’t compelled and cited the descriptions in the report, and in particular the personal accounts from the women who gave evidence to the Confidential committee . He said it was clear the women were left with no choice.

He also rejected the Report’s recommendation that redress should be blocked for anyone who was coercively confined and/or whose child was taken after 1973 on the basis that there was a little known social welfare payment available and so they should get nothing after that. That.. just isn’t going to fly.

He declined to endorse how the Commission conducted its inquiry. This break was made easier by the discovery by Noelle Brown that the Commission hadn’t actually taken a transcript of her evidence, but had just slotted in facts to a pre-defined questionnaire, and as she discovered that it wasn’t even accurate. Those details would have been the key ones for anyone trying to trace their mother or their own story- the date of entering the home and the date in which her birth mother died. How unfortunate.

Finally, the Minister promised to take a GDPR approach to his proposed next legislation to allow for access to people’s records. Why he doesn’t just apply GDPR directly right now, given it’s already the superior law, remained unanswered.

The Commission Report should be subjected to further academic and historical analysis. But as a political document its life has now ended.

Nobody who doesn’t hold the title of Bishop is going to stand behind this Commission report now, and its members can look forward to an unfamiliar experience of being asked to account for their choices as the last leg of their participation in this public issue.

For the survivors and the public whose sympathy has driven this volte face by the Government the question can move on to pressing the Government to break from another of its past habits and not cause survivors any further trauma as a price of compensation.

joseywhales

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0117/1190074-mother-and-baby-homes-vaccine-trials/

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, back alley medical research on live children?

Cluedo Monopoly

joseywhales wrote: »

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, back alley medical research on live children?

The commission would suggest there was no evidence of that....

walshb

Jody Corcoran’s piece on page 20 of the indo today is very relevant and sensible as regards why these homes existed.

It is not near as simple as a church/religion issues/blame..

stockshares

This is an important thread on how the statements were taken used and recorded .

Unethical to say the least.

https://twitter.com/maireadenright/status/1350859706156376067?s=19

saabsaab

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

The commission would suggest there was no evidence of that....

GSK have admitted it! That ship has sailed. It will be hard to convict after all this time but has any agency properly investigated what was was illegal at that time.

saabsaab

A very interesting article on this below re investigation and prosecution.


https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-mother-and-baby-homes-criminal-investigation-5324576-Jan2021/

walshb

Eilis O’Hanlon another one talking sense. Page 32 the indo..

Balance...research and no rush to slate and judge and blame for popularity..

Beechwoodspark

So what if the govt rejects the reports findings?

Another report ? Enquiry?

stockshares

saabsaab wrote: »

A very interesting article on this below re investigation and prosecution.


https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-mother-and-baby-homes-criminal-investigation-5324576-Jan2021/

The Burials Bill which was introduced by Katherine Zappone and Seamus Woulfe in Dec 2019 was updated this week quietly.

It will be interesting to see where this Bill stands relating to Inquests.

Some people believe it has been designed to prevent Inquests.
https://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/certain-institutional-burials-authorised-interventions-bill/

https://www.tuamhomesurvivors.com/press-releases/119-press-statement-of-the-tuam-home-survivors-network-11th-january-2021


The Burials Bill
Dec 2019 Bill introduced
https://www.merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/news/minister_zappone_publishes_the_general_scheme_of_institutional_burials_bill.html

Jan 2020 Extension
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20200107-joint-committee-on-children-and-youth-affairs-extends-deadline-for-written-submissions-on-the-general-scheme-of-a-certain-institutional-burials-authorised-interventions-bill/

Jan 13th 2021 Bill Update
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/51a535-general-scheme-of-a-certain-institutional-burials-authorised-interve/

stockshares

Eillis O Hanlon has chosen to disbelieve the women's testimony and takes what the Report says as fact.

The Report took testimony from 64 women over 5 years. 50,000+ went through the M+B Homes.

In some cases the Women went to the home voluntarily.
In some cases Families forced her and were more guilty than the church.
In others the church was responsible.
In some cases it was both the church and family that combined to force the daughter into the home.

It was not either or.

She said
As dreadful as Irish society was back then, it was not Soviet Russia. Nobody turned up at people's doors to drag away their daughters and sisters. As the report says: "There is no evidence that women were forced to enter mother and baby homes by the church or State authorities. Most women had no alternative

caveat emptor

Literally can't read this thread. It's disgusting. (not the posters, the information).

Country needs to have a cold hard look at itself and not the usual bull**** tribunal.

All the best.

Yellow_Fern

caveat emptor wrote: »

Literally can't read this thread. It's disgusting. (not the posters, the information).

Country needs to have a cold hard look at itself and not the usual bull**** tribunal.

All the best.

Why are points of view and data disgusting? This 'cold hard look at itself' is just trying to emotionally manipulative guff.

walshb

Eoghan Harris with a very honest piece in the indo as well..

stockshares

Roderic O Gorman says he believes there is evidence of forced Admission and Adoption.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1350789620942962691?s=19

Cluedo Monopoly

Make your thoughts known...

roderic.ogorman@oireachtas.ie
leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie
micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie
regina.doherty@oireachtas.ie
helen.mcentee@oireachtas.ie (Justice minister extremely quiet)
eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie (asleep)

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40208657.html

Ms Doherty said it is "wrong" to accept the report and she will now be calling on Children's Minister Roderic O'Gorman to sanction a new independent review when he comes before the Seanad this week, as "at the very least" we should say that we "absolutely believe" the survivors.

She said: "I don't think it's good enough to stand as our nation's response to our women and I think it should be reviewed.

Bit late now. You had the report for months!!! Gobshytes.

stockshares

Rte news saying the report is to be debated for 3hrs on Wednesday.

stockshares

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Make your thoughts known...

roderic.ogorman@oireachtas.ie
leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie
micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie
regina.doherty@oireachtas.ie
helen.mcentee@oireachtas.ie (Justice minister extremely quiet)
eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie (asleep)

In fairness I think Helen McEntee is away from the Dail atm due to pregnancy and a positive Covid test.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/justice-minister-helen-mcentee-says-23317117

Cluedo Monopoly

stockshares wrote: »

In fairness I think Helen McEntee is away from the Dail atm due to pregnancy. .

I think that's later this year. She only annouced her pregnancy in December. The issue was that TDs are not entitled to maternity leave.

Speaking to reporters today, Tánaiste Leo Varadkar said he is “really, really glad” that McEntee has taken the decision to take maternity leave. He said she had 100% support from himself and the Taoiseach on the issue.

The Constitution did not envisage the scenario of a minister having to take maternity leave, he said, saying that the government are looking at “a couple of options” of how it might work.

stockshares

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I think that's later this year. She only annouced her pregnancy in December. The issue was that TDs are not entitled to maternity leave.

I edited my post since. She had a positive Covid test.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-homes-burials-5305049-Jan2021/?utm_source=story

The report noted that the congregation “provided the Commission with an affidavit about burials generally and specifically about the Castlepollard and Sean Ross child burials but very little evidence was provided to support the statements in it”.

“The affidavit was, in many respects, speculative, inaccurate and misleading,” the report added.

It also noted that a small burial ground in the grounds of Bessborough was opened in 1956 for members of the congregation.

“It seems to have been assumed by former residents and advocacy groups that this is also where the children who died in Bessborough are buried as there are occasional meetings and commemoration ceremonies held there.”

However, the report stated that the “vast majority of children who died in Bessborough are not buried there; it seems that only one child is buried there”.

In the report, the commission said it finds it difficult to understand how or why certain records do not appear to exist.

“The Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary do not know where the children who died in Bessborough are buried. The Commission finds this very difficult to comprehend as Bessborough was a mother and baby home for the duration of the period covered by the Commission (1922 – 1998) and the congregation was involved with it for all of this time.

“The Commission finds it very difficult to understand that no member of the congregation was able to say where the children who died in Bessborough are buried.”

The report noted that the commission tried to establish where the Bessborough children were buried in a number of different ways, including via a cartographic and landscape assessment of the site. A site survey was also conducted.

The commission said it is “clear that there are a number of locations within the grounds where burials could have taken place”.

stockshares

Catherine Connolly has rubbished the Report on the Week In Politics.

She completely disagreed with Mary McAleese on the standard of the report.

She said it was anything but scholarly.

I'll post the video when it becomes available. It was an excellent contribution, perhaps the most valuable yet in the media.

Edit:
This is a clip but I'll try and post the whole show if its made available.
https://twitter.com/rtetwip/status/1350785814540800002?s=19

And part of Joe O Briens contribution
https://twitter.com/rtetwip/status/1350783981130833921?s=19