Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

Funsterdelux

stockshares wrote: »

Some of the Women who gave testimony to the commission have a podcast on the Irish Times website.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-women-s-podcast/the-irish-times-women-s-podcast-ep-466-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-1.4458448?mode=amp

The Women who contribute are named below.
https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1350834534594523137?s=19

Very good podcast, my OH was listening to it tonight. The more we read it or hear about it the more frustrating it gets.

caveat emptor

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Why are points of view and data disgusting? This 'cold hard look at itself' is just trying to emotionally manipulative guff.

you are reducing this to data points?

I'm saying the content that is coming out is shocking and disgusting.

The fact that this went on for the best part of a century means that it should be forensically analysed on a societal level so it never occurs again.

but yeah you are right it's just emotionally manipulative guff.

We are a great little country.

walshb

caveat emptor wrote: »

The fact that this went on for the best part of a century means that it should be forensically analysed on a societal level so it never occurs again.

but yeah you are right it's just emotionally manipulative guff.

We are a great little country.

It won't be occurring again, so no need to do all this deep diving analysis work here...

Anyway, many people involved are dead....

It has been investigated thoroughly and we have a report.....over a million documents anlaysed.....what more do you need/want here?

We are in a completely new world now compared to years ago...

We are now part of the world...all joined and linked...

What exactly do you want people living today to do about issues that happened when they were not involved?

Retr0gamer

stockshares wrote: »

Rte news saying the report is to be debated for 3hrs on Wednesday.

I would not be surprised if that date was chosen to have the US inauguration take all the media attention away from it.

walshb wrote: »

It won't be occurring again, so no need to do all this deep diving analysis work here...

Anyway, many people involved are dead....

It has been investigated thoroughly and we have a report.....over a million documents anlaysed.....what more do you need/want here?

We are in a completely new world now compared to years ago...

We are now part of the world...all joined and linked...

What exactly do you want people living today to do about issues that happened when they were not involved?

To hold people and the organisations that let this happen accountable.

Because the same organisation is in a similar position now in developing countries and probably doing the same thing with regards to systemic abuse of its power.

stockshares

Joe Duffy just made a good point advertising his upcoming show today.

11 million was spent on the Commission over 5 years.

It only interviewed 64 people from a possible 50,000+.

He can safely say that his show has interviewed more than that this year alone .

walshb

Retr0gamer wrote: »

To hold people and the organisations that let this happen accountable.

Because the same organisation is in a similar position now in developing countries and probably doing the same thing with regards to systemic abuse of its power.

So, who?

The homes are gone now...

The Gardai have said if crimes were committed they will investigate...

Whomever let it happen cannot be 100 percent established....

It was a mix of society, the state (who are society) and the church (who are society)

So, if being fair here to ALL, who do we hold accountable? Because if society is accountable, then nobody is accountable...

Do we chase up the mothers and fathers who pushed their children into these homes? I mean, this did happen.

I just don't see much else of what can be done here.....where does it end?

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

So, who?

The homes are gone now...

The Gardai have said if crimes were committed they will investigate...

Whomever let it happen cannot be 100 percent established....

It was a mix of society, the state (who are society) and the church (who are society)

So, if being fair here to ALL, who do we hold accountable? Because if society is accountable, then nobody is accountable...

I juts don't see much else of what can be done here.....where does it end?

Pushing the "all of society was to blame" narrative - which by the way is exactly the same excuse used in 2011 when "we all partied" apparently led to the economy dropping off a cliff, and now our covid infection rates are world beating as "we all house partied"

No.

The women who were in Mother and Baby homes were removed from society. Bickering about who removed them is a mere distraction from what occurred after they were removed.

What occurred was abuse.
What occurred was the death by neglect - including starvation - of thousands of babies.
Vaccinations without consent.
Illegal adoptions.

"Society" did not do these things. Those charged with the care of the women and babies did these things.
And the State paid them.
And the State sent in inspectors.
And like the bank regulators in 2011, the Inspectors turned a blind eye.

So what happened in the Mother and Babies homes in down to the Religious institutions that were paid to run them, and the State which oversaw them.

As for crimes committed - for a start there is the rape of those mothers who were under the age of consent for which no charges were ever brought.
The failure to dispose of human remains correctly.
There may be instances were deaths were not correctly recorded.
Illegal adoptions.

Shall I go on?

Retr0gamer

walshb wrote: »

It was a mix of society, the state (who are society) and the church (who are society)

The state is the government and the church is a religious organisation. I can assure they aren't a nebulous term called society and both physically exist in this world.

I'm off to the Centra to knife the owner and rob the cash register. I'll just tell the police it's society that made me do it.

All society did was excuse what happened or allowed people to turn a blind eye. These were crimes carried out by individuals and overseen and given the consent of the church and the state.

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Shall I go on?

The homes are gone

Some of the articles I have read I agree with. People don't want to hear the truth, if that truth at all involves some responsibility and accountability being on families/society...

The question is who is accountable/responsible....

Well, sorry but it is more than just the church and state here....

These women didn't just wake up and find themselves in mother and baby homes....there was a chain of people involved to see them there

And we cannot pick and choose who to hold responsible because it doesn't sit well to pick more than just state and church.

The harshest truth that people can't seem to take is that the homes provided a refuge, when there was no other refuge....that is a tough one to take for people, and I kind of agree with it....

Cluedo Monopoly

Catherine Connolly was on Newstalk this morning.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/mother-and-baby-home-recommendations-not-based-on-what-was-told-connolly-1136472

Independent TD for Galway-West, Catherine Connolly, told Newstalk Breakfast testimonies in the report are not presented in their entirety.
"They have a chapter on witness testimony - they tell us that that's limited: one because it's only a small representative group which is important to say, and secondly because the evidence is contaminated".

"The evidence is contaminated - why? Because the former residents spoke to each other."

She said it is confusing as a 2012 memo, which highlighted some concerns, is addressed at the beginning of the report - as are the recommendations.
"They are confusing - some of them are good, some of them are unacceptable - but the point being that it's utterly confusing when you read the recommendations because they've mixed the recommendations with commentary."

"Where do we go to now? We start this week with a full discussion - there isn't even enough time this week.

"Then we look at the testimonies and they're paraphrased, they're reduce to small little sentences and the full testimonies of the women and men that came forward are not there.

"The Commission said people will be disappointed because we are not going with the prevailing narrative - in fact, what they did was precisely go with the prevailing narrative, ignore the testimony and said 'all society was to blame'.

"And the conclusions that they make are just not connected with the testimony, so I have to ask myself: who are we to believe here?"
She also suggested that an independent, qualified body with psychological background should examine the testimonies in full.

She said what should happen is to "take the best of it, you take the recommendations that are good and that you can use".

"The Government had this since last October, the Tánaiste read it during the Christmas - I don't know what other member of the Government read it during the Christmas - then last Tuesday, I finally got a copy at 4 o'clock in the afternoon [and] did my best in relation to my contribution on Wednesday."

"We need a full discussion of the contents of this report, that's the first thing.

"We need an explanation as to how it was leaked, and most importantly why the survivours were not given a hard copy".

"I have looked at it, and actually my comments weren't strong enough last week.

the kelt

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Pushing the "all of society was to blame" narrative - which by the way is exactly the same excuse used in 2011 when "we all partied" apparently led to the economy dropping off a cliff, and now our covid infection rates are world beating as "we all house partied"

No.

The women who were in Mother and Baby homes were removed from society. Bickering about who removed them is a mere distraction from what occurred after they were removed.

What occurred was abuse.
What occurred was the death by neglect - including starvation - of thousands of babies.
Vaccinations without consent.
Illegal adoptions.

"Society" did not do these things. Those charged with the care of the women and babies did these things.
And the State paid them.
And the State sent in inspectors.
And like the bank regulators in 2011, the Inspectors turned a blind eye.

So what happened in the Mother and Babies homes in down to the Religious institutions that were paid to run them, and the State which oversaw them.

As for crimes committed - for a start there is the rape of those mothers who were under the age of consent for which no charges were ever brought.
The failure to dispose of human remains correctly.
There may be instances were deaths were not correctly recorded.
Illegal adoptions.

Shall I go on?

He’s genuinely just trolling, better to ignore. It was all of society apparently but of course ignores the fact the society that bred this was a church society in the first place, apparently society is a totally different entity back then that had nothing to do with the church when in fact it ran Irish society, don’t expect any acknowledgement of this fact though.

If you seen some of his other commentary here and in other threads you would understand, he craves for a reaction, gets one, rehashes the same trivialisation of the situation , "no proof so therefore liars flinging around accusations for example" yep go figure that one out!, , waiting for another reaction, sad existence in reality but such is life.

walshb

I guess other commentators are trolls as well because they have similar views

Elis O'Hanlon, Eoghan Harris and Jody Corcoran all wrote pieces yesterday that to me were spot on. I would not call any of them trolls because they aren't rowing in behind the OTT report condemnation.

Trolling accusations are not permitted here...

Being accused of trolling because my views differ somewhat from others. Not logical that.

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

The homes are gone

Some of the articles I have read I agree with. People don't want to hear the truth, if that truth at all involves some responsibility and accountability being on families/society...

The question is who is accountable/responsible....

Well, sorry but it is more than just the church and state here....

These women didn't just wake up and find themselves in mother and baby homes....there was a chain of people involved to see them there

And we cannot pick and choose who to hold responsible because it doesn't sit well to pick more than just state and church.

The harshest truth that people can't seem to take is that the homes provided a refuge, when there was no other refuge....that is a tough one to take for people, and I kind of agree with it....

Again with the attempts to point over there and distract from the nub of the issue.

The Religious Orders were organisations, organisations which were themselves part of larger organisations. The Roman Catholic Church being the main one but the Church of Ireland isn't innocent either.

The funds paid by the State went into the coffers of the Religious Organisations many of whom amassed vast wealth - and land.
Most of these religious organisations still exist.
They were paid by the State to care for women and babies.
The death certificates demonstrated the organisations took monies fraudulently.

The Irish State failed in it's duty to protect citizens. The Irish State still exists.

Many of those impacted are still alive.

The homes being closed is not the stunning argument you think it is - as, let me say this again, many of the victims are still alive.

The fact it within the confines of the Mother and Baby homes women's rights were infringed, women were coerced to sign away guardianship rights, children's lives were lost through systematic neglect, corpses of babies were disposed of in secret, medical experiments were carried out on children with no legal consent gained, children were sold, death certs were faked.

Society did not do this.
Families did not do this.

The people who worked in Mother's and Baby homes did this, the managers of Mother and Baby Homes implemented this, State inspectors over saw these homes.

The religious Organisations whose policies were implemented in these homes are responsible for those policies.
The State who enabled them is responsible.

You seem to be finding this harsh reality difficult to accept, but it is nonetheless what happened.

James Brown

walshb wrote: »

The homes are gone

Some of the articles I have read I agree with. People don't want to hear the truth, if that truth at all involves some responsibility and accountability being on families/society...

The question is who is accountable/responsible....

Well, sorry but it is more than just the church and state here....

These women didn't just wake up and find themselves in mother and baby homes....there was a chain of people involved to see them there

And we cannot pick and choose who to hold responsible because it doesn't sit well to pick more than just state and church.

The harshest truth that people can't seem to take is that the homes provided a refuge, when there was no other refuge....that is a tough one to take for people, and I kind of agree with it....

You can certainly speak on individuals in the families and families for blame, quite rightly.
However, where the homes did provide a service, I don't think 'refuge' is a word we can use in most cases.

Up to the present day both the church and the FF/FG state are whitewashing and putting up road blocks. Today.
If selling babies and forcibly taking babies and leaving babies to die and beating women, many of whom were rape victims, while leaving them to a life of servitude was legal, they wouldn't have covered it up and to this day be more than reluctant to let the truth come out. The full truth.
This is not to save the reputations of private individuals or families. This is to protect the reputation of the church, it's affiliates, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, the Civil service, the Garda and to an extent the medical profession.
If you want to ensure the full truth comes out these institutions need to own their past instead of covering in the present.

ec18

Those who were in charge in the homes should be investigated, arrested and tried for slavery, abuse and detaining someone against their will. There is no justification for the treatment of those in positions of power in the mother and baby homes, industrial schools and laundries.

walshb

Bowie wrote: »

You can certainly speak on individuals in the families and families for blame, quite rightly.
However, where the homes did provide a service, I don't think 'refuge' is a word we can use in most cases.

Up to the present day both the church and the FF/FG state are whitewashing and putting up road blocks. Today.
If selling babies and forcibly taking babies and leaving babies to die and beating women, many of whom were rape victims, while leaving them to a life of servitude was legal, they wouldn't have covered it up and to this day be more than reluctant to let the truth come out. The full truth.
This is not to save the reputations of private individuals or families. This is to protect the reputation of the church, it's affiliates, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, the Civil service, the Garda and to an extent the medical profession.
If you want to ensure the full truth comes out these institutions need to own their past instead of covering in the present.

I appreciate the genuine and normal response here

We differ....no biggy

Church for me absolutely played a part.....so many people brainwashed and indoctrinated by religious leaders and teachers...

These were the times, sadly

What I don[t get is the wanting to apply today's standards and laws and views and morals onto a very different era that the church had a control on.

What went on was bad.....we all agree here....but there was a badness in society back then, and people were part of it....the church, of course, a big part.....a lot of assistance and complicity was also needed...

stockshares

Bowie wrote: »

You can certainly speak on individuals in the families and families for blame, quite rightly.
However, where the homes did provide a service, I don't think 'refuge' is a word we can use in most cases.

Up to the present day both the church and the FF/FG state are whitewashing and putting up road blocks. Today.
If selling babies and forcibly taking babies and leaving babies to die and beating women, many of whom were rape victims, while leaving them to a life of servitude was legal, they wouldn't have covered it up and to this day be more than reluctant to let the truth come out. The full truth.
This is not to save the reputations of private individuals or families. This is to protect the reputation of the church, it's affiliates, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, the Civil service, the Garda and to an extent the medical profession.
If you want to ensure the full truth comes out these institutions need to own their past instead of covering in the present.

You should have highlighted this part
If selling babies and forcibly taking babies and leaving babies to die and beating women, many of whom were rape victims, while leaving them to a life of servitude was legal, they wouldn't have covered it up"

There are powerful people involved who have taken part in
Forced Disappearances
Human Trafficking
Rape

The Political Parties do not want these crimes investigated and neither do the Church.

The Public can pressure Politicians to investigate these crimes but the Church has a lot of info on their Parties that they leverage against these Politicians which ensures they stay protected.

There have been numerous Inquiries but hardly any prosecutions if at all.

The Gov/Establishment have conditioned us to accept apologies instead of investigations .

walshb

ec18 wrote: »

Those who were in charge in the homes should be investigated, arrested and tried for slavery, abuse and detaining someone against their will. There is no justification for the treatment of those in positions of power in the mother and baby homes, industrial schools and laundries.

How on earth is anyone going to prove, or begin to prove this? Or get convictions....?

We are in 2021.....you realize that you cannot apply today's laws and standards to back then, and from a criminal point of view, things done back then that may not have been illegal, you cannot try and convict anyone today, if what happened back then is illegal today....

If people did things back then that were legal, or not illegal, you cannot try them today for it.....

walshb

Example: I read yesterday that nuns may not have reported cases of pregnancy that were alleged to have been rape....today these allegations would have to be reported....back then, it wasn't illegal not to report...

this is just one part of the complexities involved...

Are people saying that those who failed to report back then should be tried today?

stockshares

Joe Duffy said just now that RTE have contacted the Commission and asked them to remove a section of the report which used one of their Documentaries on Peggy McCarthy as a Source.

Apparently two RTE Documentaries have been used as Sources in the Report.

I'll post on this later when I get some specifics.

Cluedo Monopoly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The fact it within the confines of the Mother and Baby homes women's rights were infringed, women were coerced to sign away guardianship rights, children's lives were lost through systematic neglect, corpses of babies were disposed of in secret, medical experiments were carried out on children with no legal consent gained, children were sold, death certs were faked.

Great post. These particular elements will be ignored if you get a response (doubtful).
Imagine looking for attention on a subject like this. Boggles the mind.

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

I appreciate the genuine and normal response here

We differ....no biggy

Church for me absolutely played a part.....so many people brainwashed and indoctrinated by religious leaders and teachers...

These were the times, sadly

What I don[t get is the wanting to apply today's standards and laws and views and morals onto a very different era that the church had a control on.

What went on was bad.....we all agree here....but there was a badness in society back then, and people were part of it....the church, of course, a big part.....a lot of assistance and complicity was also needed...

We are not talking about the Middle Ages here.

We are talking about 1922- 1998. A span of 76 years that ended just 23 years ago.

23 years ago. Stop acting like it was 23 centuries.

The crimes that were committed were crimes then. There is no applying today's standards - even applying the standards of the time what was does was criminal - why do you think so many bodies were buried in secret?

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We are not talking about the Middle Ages here.

We are talking about 1922- 1998. A span of 76 years that ended just 23 years ago.

23 years ago. Stop acting like it was 23 centuries.

The crimes that were committed were crimes then. There is no applying today's standards - even applying the standards of the time what was does was criminal - why do you think so many bodies were buried in secret?

Ok, so as I said...the gardai have said they will investigate crimes committed..

So, if we can show these crimes, the gardai said they will investigate..

James Brown

walshb wrote: »

I appreciate the genuine and normal response here

We differ....no biggy

Church for me absolutely played a part.....so many people brainwashed and indoctrinated by religious leaders and teachers...

These were the times, sadly

What I don[t get is the wanting to apply today's standards and laws and views and morals onto a very different era that the church had a control on.

What went on was bad.....we all agree here....but there was a badness in society back then, and people were part of it....the church, of course, a big part.....a lot of assistance and complicity was also needed...

I would be very happy if today's church and state owned up to the past and released all they know and apologised to the survivors.

On your point, what's the problem with the church and state acknowledging what went on and letting us all move on?

Today, the people within the church and FF/FG state are covering. So they should be held to account on what they are doing today IMO.

techdiver

The Church defenders here remind me of Trumpers in America. A very loud minority who defend to the death their cults right to do anything they want. All whilst aided and abetted by the state which to this day still feed our next generation to these organisation to brainwash in our state funded schools, with little or no alternative for most. How many more revelations need to come out before we start really de-coupling church and state here?

Retr0gamer

walshb wrote: »

What I don[t get is the wanting to apply today's standards and laws and views and morals onto a very different era that the church had a control on.

Murder, slavery, human trafficking and abuse were all illegal then as they are now.

None of these are excused by society, what ever that is. The church created an atmosphere where these actions could not be questioned through fear. It wasn't acceptable then. The church used fear to get away with it. That's what people are referring to when they say 'society', fear of reprecussions because of the church.

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so as I said...the gardai have said they will investigate crimes committed..

So, if we can show these crimes, the gardai said they will investigate..

St. Vincent's Industrial School, Goldenbridge run by the Sister's of Mercy was exposed in Louis Lenten's documentary "Goldenbridge" in 1996.

In 2003 Mary Raferty published evidence of 'extra' remains being found during exhumations of High Park - a home operated by Our Lady of Charity of Refuge in Drumcondra.
Catherine Corless went public with her investigation of an appalling death rate in Tuam and lack of burial records in 2013.

There has been the Ryan Report 2009.
The McAleese Report 2013

Now we have yet another report.

And the Gardaí are saying they 'may' take criminal action ... in 2021... 25 years after the abuses in Goldenbridge were broadcast.
8 years after Catherine Corless produced unimpeachable evidence of systemic abuse in Tuam.

But... but...but... the Gardaí said holds no water for me.

Cluedo Monopoly

How are the religious orders allowed to be so silent? How is that even possible in a normal country? Why are they so special? What organisation would be allowed ignore the law?

I would like to see the nuns on the witness stand and simple questions asked under oath e.g. where are the 9000 dead babies buried and why are they in mass graves all over Ireland?

The report noted that the congregation “provided the Commission with an affidavit about burials generally and specifically about the Castlepollard and Sean Ross child burials but very little evidence was provided to support the statements in it”.

“The affidavit was, in many respects, speculative, inaccurate and misleading,” the report added.

In the report, the commission said it finds it difficult to understand how or why certain records do not appear to exist.

“The Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary do not know where the children who died in Bessborough are buried. The Commission finds this very difficult to comprehend as Bessborough was a mother and baby home for the duration of the period covered by the Commission (1922 – 1998) and the congregation was involved with it for all of this time.

“The Commission finds it very difficult to understand that no member of the congregation was able to say where the children who died in Bessborough are buried.”

Gardai/Government, please take over. Do the right thing.

ec18

walshb wrote: »

How on earth is anyone going to prove, or begin to prove this? Or get convictions....?

We are in 2021.....you realize that you cannot apply today's laws and standards to back then, and from a criminal point of view, things done back then that may not have been illegal, you cannot try and convict anyone today, if what happened back then is illegal today....

If people did things back then that were legal, or not illegal, you cannot try them today for it.....

walshb wrote: »

Example: I read yesterday that nuns may not have reported cases of pregnancy that were alleged to have been rape....today these allegations would have to be reported....back then, it wasn't illegal not to report...

this is just one part of the complexities involved...

Are people saying that those who failed to report back then should be tried today?

That's fair, there needs to be some accountability for their action whether illegal or not were wrong, and all involved knew they were wrong at the time. Even if it's a case of the orders involved handing over some property for social improvements.

stockshares

The response from the Gardai to the M+B Home Report.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/survivors-encouraged-to-report-abuse-in-mother-and-baby-homes-as-garda-hq-to-study-report-for-criminality-39976307.html

Garda headquarters is "studying in depth" the 2,865-page mother and baby report before assigning it to a national unit or specially convened team of officers to probe identified criminality.

An Garda Síochána received a copy of the report last Tuesday upon its publication.

Senior sources say that Garda Commissioner Drew Harris and his team are currently "examining in its entirety" the lengthy report before deciding which Garda unit is "best placed" to probe the litany of shocking testimony.

However, it is understood that senior officers have already identified some potential issues at this early stage.

These include that it was not an offence at the time for religious orders to fail to report instances of children in their care who were pregnant and therefore victims of statutory rape.

It is now an offence for a State institution not to report if a child is a victim of statutory rape, but that was not law when these mother and baby homes were in existence.

"Therefore from an initial reading of the report, the homes may not be culpable for failing to inform the authorities.

But this is an extremely detailed and lengthy report and the Garda examination of it is at an early stage," explained a well-placed source.

"The Garda Commissioner's office is examining the report very closely before deciding how to proceed in terms of the Garda investigation.

"This is a matter of seismic, national importance and the force will reflect that in how it decides how best to investigate.

Upon its publication last Tuesday, Taoiseach Micheál Martin said the report had already been sent to the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP), whose role it is to consider whether to lay criminal charges.

However, that is not the case.

The report is currently under consideration by An Garda Síochána, and it will decide whether there is enough evidence within it - and from further Garda investigations - for it to be to sent to the DPP to consider directing any charges.

This weekend, sources within Garda headquarters said the force wanted to assure and encourage all women and children affected to come forward to gardaí in relation to any suspected criminality which led to their pregnancy or arising from their time at a mother and baby home.

"Any persons who wish to report sexual abuse before they went into these homes, or indeed any abuse they may have suffered within them, we would ask them to come forward.

"In many instances, these are cases of historical sexual abuse and would be investigated thoroughly," said the source.

It is not usually "standard practice" for gardaí to approach victims of crime and ask if they wish to make a statement of complaint.

However, given that many women have already given statements to the commission, this could potentially impact the Garda approach.

It is understood that gardaí have not ruled out approaching the commission directly as part of its investigation to try and speak to some of the women involved.

"Nothing has been decided upon in terms of exactly how to proceed as of yet," added the source.

An Garda Síochána officially confirmed it was investigating the report on Tuesday, saying in a statement: "Following the final report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby homes being presented to Cabinet today, An Garda Síochána will now examine the detailed and extensive final report, and consider if there are grounds for criminal investigation.

Important Points
1 it may not be possible to charge the orders who ran the homes with failure to report rape.

2 it is possible to charge people with historic sexual abuse and rape.

Retr0gamer

stockshares wrote: »

Senior sources say that Garda Commissioner Drew Harris and his team are currently "examining in its entirety" the lengthy report before deciding which Garda unit is "best placed" to probe the litany of shocking testimony.

However, it is understood that senior officers have already identified some potential issues at this early stage.

These include that it was not an offence at the time for religious orders to fail to report instances of children in their care who were pregnant and therefore victims of statutory rape.

It is now an offence for a State institution not to report if a child is a victim of statutory rape, but that was not law when these mother and baby homes were in existence.

"Therefore from an initial reading of the report, the homes may not be culpable for failing to inform the authorities.

So much deflection. I mean I don't see any issue with this as it wouldn't stand up in court but this is a minor offense compared to the stacks of other issues mentioned in the report.

stockshares

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So much deflection. I mean I don't see any issue with this as it wouldn't stand up in court but this is a minor offense compared to the stacks of other issues mentioned in the report.

Yes failure to report rape is minor compared to much of what went on.

The important point though Is that Women can come forward and report historic rape and sexual abuse and these will be investigated.

However it remains to be seen if the Gardai will be true to their word on this, however the language used makes it seem seem more promising than language used before, when excuses were found for not investigating.

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But... but...but... the Gardaí said holds no water for me.

Well, who else have we to investigate alleged crimes that can be prosecuted?

It is a matter for the Gardai to investigate any alleged crimes here.

If these allegations are presented, and I don't mean here on boards...I mean proper allegations made to the Gardai, then they will need to follow up and investigated

Retr0gamer

The problem with those cases is even if they are reported quickly they can be hard to prove. Sometimes ends up with one word against another.

What really needs to be investigated is the human trafficking and other offenses where there is the possibility of a paper trail. I refuse to believe there isn't any evidence here but it will be a case of issuing warrants to the RCC or documents from former governments which I doubt the government has the balls to authorise. It's also probably up to the state to pursue systemic abuses by organisations whereas an abuse allegation can be brought forward by the victim.

So the best we will probably get are historic abuse cases that won't get to trial.

stockshares

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The problem with those cases is even if they are reported quickly they can be hard to prove. Sometimes ends up with one word against another.

What really needs to be investigated is the human trafficking and other offenses where there is the possibility of a paper trail. I refuse to believe there isn't any evidence here but it will be a case of issuing warrants to the RCC or documents from former governments which I doubt the government has the balls to authorise.

So the best we will probably get are historic abuse cases that won't get to trial.

DNA could be a help in this. I'm not sure whether an accused person can be forced to give a DNA sample in Rape cases.

SPG are the main culprits when it comes to Trafficking and I would imagine that files have been destroyed.

They had to hand over what's left of all their files to Tusla some years ago and those files could be trawled through.

However I would imagine the Gardai don't want to touch this as Special Branch were used at the time to procure Passports for children for exportation to the USA in behalf of Archbishop McQuaid.

Mike Milote is a source for this. See his commentary online and his book Banished Babies.

Anyone interested in this topic should also look at the Documentary series which was on TV3 called Adoption Stories.

Some people in America were interviewed for it and there are some really brutal examples of forced adoptions.

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

Well, who else have we to investigate alleged crimes that can be prosecuted?

It is a matter for the Gardai to investigate any alleged crimes here.

If these allegations are presented, and I don't mean here on boards...I mean proper allegations made to the Gardai, then they will need to follow up and investigate

Either my point about abuses being made known 25 years ago escaped you or you have chosen to ignore it.

The question you should be asking is why is it only now, in 2021, decades later, that the Gardaí are making semi serious noises about what they might be going to do.

I would suggest they start with their own records.

James Brown

stockshares wrote: »

...An Garda Síochána officially confirmed it was investigating the report on Tuesday, saying in a statement: "Following the final report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby homes being presented to Cabinet today, An Garda Síochána will now examine the detailed and extensive final report, and consider if there are grounds for criminal investigation....

Is it common for the Garda to ignore victims and take a report created on behalf of the accused to judge if they will investigate or not?

We need an outside body to investigate. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas as they say.

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Either my point about abuses being made known 25 years ago escaped you or you have chosen to ignore it.

The question you should be asking is why is it only now, in 2021, decades later, that the Gardaí are making semi serious noises about what they might be going to do.

I would suggest they start with their own records.

But we live in the now...

The Gardai need to operate now......

Not sure what you want here

It's simple: If crimes are alleged to have taken place, then they should be presented to the Gardai, and the Gardia can then investigate

If the Gardai failed to act and investigate years ago, well, that can also be investigated by the state/GSOC...

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

But we live in the now...

The Gardai need to operate now......

Not sure what you want here

It's simple: If crimes are alleged to have taken place, then they should be presented to the Gardai, and the Gardia can then investigate

If the Gardai failed to act and investigate years ago, well, that can also be investigated by the state/GSOC...

Going by your 'logic' no historical crimes of sexual abuse should be investigated by the Gardaí - who are the people charged by the State with investigating crimes.

Is that what you are saying?

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Going by your 'logic' no historical crimes of sexual abuse should be investigated by the Gardaí - who are the people charged by the State with investigating crimes.

Is that what you are saying?

What?

How am I saying that in what you quote.....?

If there are crimes alleged to have happened, and they are presented to the Gardai, then the Gardai can investigate...

Where did I say/imply that no historical crimes of sexual abuse can be looked at or investigated?

Please read what I wrote: "If crimes are alleged to have taken place."

James Brown

walshb wrote: »

What?

How am I saying that in what you quote.....?

If there are crimes alleged to have happened, and they are presented to the Gardai, then the Gardai can investigate...

Where did I say/imply that no historical crimes of sexual abuse can be looked at or investigated?

Please read what I wrote: "If crimes are alleged to have taken place."

Maybe it's how I'm reading your comments but you seem to suggest 'if' here. We know there are numerous claims. We know the FF/FG/State are aware for decades. We know babies were left to die and sold. We know the survivors aren't happy with the inaccuracies and fudging in the report.
What are the state and church going to do about it?
In the least they should apologise for their institutions role and open an honest unbiased investigation holding the institutions accountable and cut the covering their arses.

stockshares

In 2019 the United Nations Special Rapporteur has said there is an urgent need for a comprehensive examination of forced and illegal adoptions here and warned the State’s investigation into mother and baby homes “is not broad enough to uncover the full scale of illegal adoptions”.

Maud de Boer-Buquicchio found significant issues with the “limited scope” of the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30909291.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

What?

How am I saying that in what you quote.....?

If there are crimes alleged to have happened, and they are presented to the Gardai, then the Gardai can investigate...

Where did I say/imply that no historical crimes of sexual abuse can be looked at or investigated?

Please read what I wrote: "If crimes are alleged to have taken place."

What you are saying is all over the place tbh.
All this 'here and now' guff.

Now you say as long as all the people who were raped, neglected, abused, pop along to their local Gardaí station then they will get right on with investigating that, but they can't be reading any reports that detail such abuses because.. why exactly?

You are also assuming people haven't reported crimes to the Gardaí - we know for a fact that many many reports of sexual abuse went no further than the local garda station.

In 2016 The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography stated Ireland was "an example of large scale illegal adoption".
In 2019 She called for an urgent investigation into illegal adoptions in Ireland.
There were crimes then. They are crimes now. Many of the victims are still alive. Many of the victims don't even know (yet) that they are , in fact , victims.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30909291.html

2016 - special rappoteur published damning report.
2019 - special rappoteur calls for urgent examination.
2021- walshb says all people have to do is tell the Gardaí all about it.

It's it just amazing that given lack of legal documentation of reports to Gardaí, criminal prosecutions, or eventual verdicts that you have such faith in the AGS to urgently act decades after the abuses came to light.

Ms de Boer-Buquicchio, the special rapporteur on the sale and exploitation of children, has also claimed there is “a culture of silence” in Ireland around issues of childhood sexual abuse and exploitation.

She said there was limited data on child abuse, and what was available “cannot clarify the number of cases of sex abuse and exploitation of children that make it to court and their outcomes”.

stockshares

For anyone who refuses to believe that trafficking and forced adoptions occured and/or believe that M+B homes were refuges for women and children they should follow this account.

The Account is now starting to publish the death certs of children which show the causes of death. There are examples of one child dying from a heart attack after being left out in the sun all day. Others died of Marmarus etc.

One case below relates to a forced adoption with the baby sold to the USA .
https://twitter.com/NameBridget/status/964955014425907201?s=19

The Commission ignored all this or allowed the limited scope of the terms if reference to give it an out therefore not requiring it to take cases like this into account

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What you are saying is all over the place tbh.
All this 'here and now' guff.

Now you say as long as all the people who were raped, neglected, abused, pop along to their local Gardaí station then they will get right on with investigating that, but they can't be reading any reports that detail such abuses because.. why exactly?

You are also assuming people haven't reported crimes to the Gardaí - we know for a fact that many many reports of sexual abuse went no further than the local garda station.

In 2016 The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography stated Ireland was "an example of large scale illegal adoption".
In 2019 She called for an urgent investigation into illegal adoptions in Ireland.
There were crimes then. They are crimes now. Many of the victims are still alive. Many of the victims don't even know (yet) that they are , in fact , victims.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30909291.html

2016 - special rappoteur published damning report.
2019 - special rappoteur calls for urgent examination.
2021- walshb says all people have to do is tell the Gardaí all about it.

It's it just amazing that given lack of legal documentation of reports to Gardaí, criminal prosecutions, or eventual verdicts that you have such faith in the AGS to urgently act decades after the abuses came to light.

You are assuming far too much about my posting. My posts are very clear.

I don’t know what has been reported to the gardai, and by whom.

I simply said that if any alleged crimes have been reported, then it’s up to the gardai to investigate.

Your not grasping this in your issue..

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

You are assuming far too much about my posting. My posts are very clear.

I don’t know what has been reported to the gardai, and by whom.

I simply said that if any alleged crimes have been reported, then it’s up to the gardai to investigate.

Your not grasping this in your issue..

You are not grasping that for decades such crimes were reported to the Gardaí and they did squat.
Indeed, there is testimony of collusion by members of the AGS.

You are also not grasping (well you are, but at straws) that the AGS has been dragging it's collective feet when it comes to investigating.

We both agree the AGS should investigate crimes - but I also want to know why they didn't do so in the past and why is it taking so long for then to do so now.
I also want historical AGS involvement in women being returned to the homes, facilitating illegal adoptions, facilitating false paperwork, etc etc to be investigated.

Are we on the same page or do you have a but?

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are not grasping that for decades such crimes were reported to the Gardaí and they did squat.
Indeed, there is testimony of collusion by members of the AGS.

You are also not grasping (well you are, but at straws) that the AGS has been dragging it's collective feet when it comes to investigating.

We both agree the AGS should investigate crimes - but I also want to know why they didn't do so in the past and why is it taking so long for then to do so now.
I also want historical AGS involvement in women being returned to the homes, facilitating illegal adoptions, facilitating false paperwork, etc etc to be investigated.

Are we on the same page or do you have a but?

I have said it already..post 1590

If the Gardai did not act to investigate crimes that were reported then GSOC and the state can investigate here..

Gooey Looey

Don't waste your breath he/she doesn't want to know. I'm beginning to sense they go against the grain for the fun of it!

I'm ignoring them, it would be great if people stopped quoting their posts

the kelt

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are not grasping that for decades such crimes were reported to the Gardaí and they did squat.
Indeed, there is testimony of collusion by members of the AGS.

You are also not grasping (well you are, but at straws) that the AGS has been dragging it's collective feet when it comes to investigating.

We both agree the AGS should investigate crimes - but I also want to know why they didn't do so in the past and why is it taking so long for then to do so now.
I also want historical AGS involvement in women being returned to the homes, facilitating illegal adoptions, facilitating false paperwork, etc etc to be investigated.

Are we on the same page or do you have a but?

Your dealing with a poster who thinks

“The church bashing and state bashing today for issues that occurred years and years ago...just odd.”

Life too short mate.

stockshares

walshb wrote: »

You are assuming far too much about my posting. My posts are very clear.

I don’t know what has been reported to the gardai, and by whom.

I simply said that if any alleged crimes have been reported, then it’s up to the gardai to investigate.

Your not grasping this in your issue..

Two cases below were reported to Gardai in 2013 and 2014 and nothing done.
https://twitter.com/tuambabiesfami1/status/1350887597535588353?s=19