Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

James Brown

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40212506.html



Interesting development. One to watch.

Only way these people might get justice. So long as its not some crony appointed judge...

An outside investigation is needed.

saabsaab

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

As someone who dug up human remains and have been involved with medical record storage it is very plausible that it is forgotten.They probably have an idea where they are but are not sure. The bones of 900 infants is far smaller than you might imagine. also they dont always last long before dissappearing in acid brown earth soils that occur around in Cork. Not sure if the soil at the site acid brown earth but it might be.

Look at the wording! That doesn't stack up.



'will not give any information as to where the bodies of the over 900 children that died at Bessborough might be found. It can find no evidence that there were significant sums of money involved in sending babies to the US to be adopted, but then, it is the opinion of the commission that access to the administrative records of the congregations that arranged such adoptions be governed by the religious themselves.

Cluedo Monopoly

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

As someone who dug up human remains and have been involved with medical record storage it is very plausible that it is forgotten.They probably have an idea where they are but are not sure. The bones of 900 infants is far smaller than you might imagine. also they dont always last long before dissappearing in acid brown earth soils that occur around in Cork. Not sure if the soil at the site acid brown earth but it might be.

Hmmmm. Your posts drip with empathy.

The missing 900 children at Bessborough were not all infants. I believe the oldest recorded death was 3 years old.

You might think it's plausible that the nuns don't know where these dead children ended up. Most don't think it's plausible. The commission did not think so.

Do you think they deserve to be buried with dignity? Or would you prefer they stayed disappeared?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/commission-questions-view-that-no-one-knows-where-infants-are-buried-in-home-1.4456672

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes expressed doubt that a religious order had no knowledge where the majority of some 900 babies who died at its institution were buried.

In 1934 the home had the highest recorded infant mortality rate of any in the State. The situation continued to deteriorate in the 1940s and peaked in 1943, when 75 per cent of children born there died before turning one.

The commission finds it very hard to believe that there is no one in that congregation who does not have some knowledge of the burial places of the children,” the report states, adding that it was “perplexed and concerned” at the congregation’s response on the matter.

John Hutton

I thought the commission and its methodology was all nonsense and should be binned?

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Hmmmm. Your posts drip with empathy.

The missing 900 children at Bessborough were not all infants. I believe the oldest recorded death was 3 years old.

You might think it's plausible that the nuns don't know where these dead children ended up. Most don't it's plausible. The commission did not think so.

Do you think they deserve to be buried with dignity?

Apologies, the oldest missing child at Bessborough was 5 years old.

Over 96% died in infancy as follows: 13.68% died in the perinatal period (0-7 days); 8.79% died in the neonatal period (8-28 days) and 73.86% died aged 29-365 days. The remaining 3.67% died in childhood aged between 366 days and five years.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0117/1190299-ann-ogorman-mother-baby-homes/

Ann believes that what she saw that day was her baby daughter been taken for burial.

"There was no one else’s baby who died at that time," she said.

In 1975, Ann gave birth again in Bessborough, but she said that there was no file on her baby girl.

"They had no file on my daughter, but they had a file on me being there before. As the years went on it was like a secret. No one knew about it."

A couple of years ago, Ann managed to get a birth and death certificate for the daughter she called Evelyn.

She said one certificate says that Evelyn died due to prematurity, while the other says she was full-term baby.

"I have both birth and death certificates now. I know it was her that was in that box."

Ann said the final resting place of all the babies should be identified and marked with a fitting memorial.

"To be marked, protected and to be blessed. And a seat and wildflowers, and a plaque with all their names," she said.

Last Wednesday, Ann was delighted to see the name Evelyn O’Gorman listed on the front page of The Examiner as part of its coverage of the commission's report.

I scanned it down and I saw Evelyn’s name and I was so delighted," she said.

"It put my mind a little bit at ease. Their names are recognised now. Their names are out. I have children and grandchildren now and it’s good for them to know about their aunt."

Is it too much to ask?

Bannasidhe

John Hutton wrote: »

I thought the commission and its methodology was all nonsense and should be binned?

The terms of reference were far too narrow.
The investigation too limited.
The lack of independent review prior to publication troublesome.
Many (many) of the conclusions drawn are not supported even by the relatively small amount of evidence provided = more worrying is the reverse is also the case, conclusions dismissed are supported by the small amount of evidence provided.
It's methodology was not suited to a fact finding investigation but was more akin to an examination of whether there exists a legal case for redress.

None of this means there is not useful information to be gleaned from the report - not just from what it contains but from what it omits.
The report itself has now become a primary source (while also being a flawed) secondary source as have the Ryan and McAleese Reports.

I have not heard any calls for it to be binned (i.e. destroyed).

Cluedo Monopoly

Mother and Baby home report being covered by Miriam on Radio 1 now.

Bannasidhe

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0117/1190299-ann-ogorman-mother-baby-homes/



Is it too much to ask?

Yes, because the official mindset is "they will be looking for compensation" and at times the State , which can be so flaithulach with our money when it suits, is also notably miserly when it comes to private citizens seeking redress. For example how the HSE fights malpractice cases tooth and nail all the way through the courts (gathering legal expenses at it goes) and ends up issuing a "profound apology" after a multi-million euro award has been made against them.
Ironically, it is often only by taking a court case that the plaintiffs manage to establish the medical malfeasance occurred.

What we do not tend to do here is 'simple' fact finding. Investigations whose sole purpose is to uncover as much of the evidence as possible and come to findings based completely on the available evidence. That is open about that evidence (personal identifying details can be easily redacted), open about it's purpose, and open to interrogation before any final conclusions are reached.

Edit to add: That State acts on the assumption the victims are looking for money, and so seeks to play down (or deny) a) how much abuse occurred, and b)the State's involvement. This tells us a lot about the official mindset.
What is not considered is that the victims want answers most of all - answers as to the fate of their children, answers as to their identity. Most are not in it for the money. They are in it for the truth.
Until the State recognises this basic fact the rollercoaster of Commission after Commission after Commission will continue. Give the foot dragging over adoptees birth certs I see no evidence that the State has learned anything.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://twitter.com/camanpour/status/1352711922345508864

Caquas

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, because the official mindset is "they will be looking for compensation" and at times the State , which can be so flaithulach with our money when it suits, is also notably miserly when it comes to private citizens seeking redress. For example how the HSE fights malpractice cases tooth and nail all the way through the courts (gathering legal expenses at it goes) and ends up issuing a "profound apology" after a multi-million euro award has been made against them.
....

You think the State is miserly when private citizens seek redress??? Do you understand that the courts are part of the State i.e. the Judicial branch.

The Irish State showers millions on claimants and on their legal teams in medical negligence cases without doing anything effective to fix the failures and prevent medical negligence. And the HSE will never take action against its negligent staff, hence its liability.

If there is a lesson here for the Mothers and Babies Home scandal it is that nothing will be done to solve any current problem: the Homes are all closed, the power of the Churches has been broken, unmarried fathers are more feckless than ever, giving access to the original birth certs. will only generate further misery. But a powerful lobby will not be satisfied until compensation is paid.

To which I say - ah sure why not, so long as we can keep borrowing free money which we are never going to repay. But while we're at it why not pay compensation to all those forced to emigrate through the failure of successive Irish governments? The men who had to carry the hod while living in miserable kips in Kilburn and the women who worked as skivvies in conditions no better than those Homes and for employers who were as cruel and contemptuous as any Mother Superior. If only there was an influential lobby to agitate for the poor Irish!

end of the road

Caquas wrote: »

You think the State is miserly when private citizens seek redress??? Do you understand that the courts are part of the State i.e. the Judicial branch.

The Irish State showers millions on claimants and on their legal teams in medical negligence cases without doing anything effective to fix the failures and prevent medical negligence. And the HSE will never take action against its negligent staff, hence its liability.

If there is a lesson here for the Mothers and Babies Home scandal it is that nothing will be done to solve any current problem: the Homes are all closed, the power of the Churches has been broken, unmarried fathers are more feckless than ever, giving access to the original birth certs. will only generate further misery. But a powerful lobby will not be satisfied until compensation is paid.

To which I say - ah sure why not, so long as we can keep borrowing free money which we are never going to repay. But while we're at it why not pay compensation to all those forced to emigrate through the failure of successive Irish governments? The men who had to carry the hod while living in miserable kips in Kilburn and the women who worked as skivvies in conditions no better than those Homes and for employers who were as cruel and contemptuous as any Mother Superior. If only there was an influential lobby to agitate for the poor Irish!

borrowing non-free money, which every country will do from time to time, has nothing to do with this.
yes the homes have gone and the church's power has been broken thankfully, however there is still the fact that the state was just as much responsible for the abuse and criminality that went on and therefore has to at the very least, face up to it.
if that means paying compensation, so be it.
as for issuing birth certs, everyone has a right to know where they come from, that's non-negotiable, and there will also be other information on them that they would be entitled to know, at least for potential medical reasons/issues that may arrise, because after all children were born and adopted out of these homes up until the 80s at least.

yes indeed there may be some upset caused to people from finding out the details, that's certainly unfortunate, and there will be privacy concerns for some, but the reality is ultimately that the right for someone to know who they are, or in some cases even when they were actually born, will have to be in some way upheld.

stockshares

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://twitter.com/camanpour/status/1352711922345508864

Great find.

I'd heard he was to appear in CNN but it went out of my head.

Justl istened to it. Do you know how long the full interview was.

I hope Christine had someone from the Survivors Groups giving their opinion on it, although she did touch on the fact that many are not happy with it.

Martin is a sickening insincere sleeveen. He didn't tell her that they wanted to bury this report late last year by Sealing Archives within it

Cluedo Monopoly

stockshares wrote: »

Great find.

I'd heard he was to appear in CNN but it went out of my head.

Justl istened to it. Do you know how long the full interview was.

I hope Christine had someone from the Survivors Groups giving their opinion on it, although she did touch on the fact that many are not happy with it.

Martin is a sickening insincere sleeveen. He didn't tell her that they wanted to bury this report late last year by Sealing Archives within it

I think that was the only part of the interview that covered the mother and baby homes. I agree with you on Martin, he hoped to bury this story but it will continue to haunt him. There is serious momentum now to keep the pressure on O'Gorman.

saabsaab

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I think that was the only part of the interview that covered the mother and baby homes. I agree with you on Martin, he hoped to bury this story but it will continue to haunt him. There is serious momentum now to keep the pressure on O'Gorman.

Pressure from Government and MM?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40213130.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0124/1191717-mother-and-baby-ni/

Pressure in Northern Ireland to open an investigation into the Mother and Baby homes. They might well do a better job of it by learning from our government's mistakes.

Cluedo Monopoly

Double post.

Cluedo Monopoly

saabsaab wrote: »

Pressure from Government and MM?

No, pressure from the survivors, representative groups, the public, journalists etc.

Keep emailing them and get your family/friends to do likewise. The see emails as potential lost votes.

Caquas

end of the road wrote: »

borrowing non-free money, which every country will do from time to time, has nothing to do with this.....

Free money has everything to do with this. For the first time in history, we are borrowing free of interest (in fact, the system is so distorted that we don’t even have to repay in full). As a result, politicians and lobbyists can call for additional spending without ever being asked where that money should come from. Imagine politicians lived in a rational world like the rest of us where money spent on one item means savings must be found elsewhere.

But maybe you, unlike the politicians and lobbyists who fill the media with such demands, will tell us where we will find matching savings in our public expenditure. Or do you think we don’t pay enough tax?

end of the road wrote: »

yes the homes have gone and the church's power has been broken thankfully, however there is still the fact that the state was just as much responsible for the abuse and criminality that went on and therefore has to at the very least, face up to it....

Criminality? The only criminality that emerges from the Commission’s report seems to be the unregistered deaths of infants. But on that score, we could prosecute an amazing range of people, not forgetting Joanne Hayes and her family in Kerry who have just been awarded €2.3 Million of our magic money.

The level of infant mortality in those Homes was shocking, especially compared with, say, Switzerland or Denmark, but who in Ireland can escape censure on that score?

yes indeed there may be some upset caused to people from finding out the details, that's certainly unfortunate, and there will be privacy concerns for some, but the reality is ultimately that the right for someone to know who they are, or in some cases even when they were actually born, will have to be in some way upheld.

If you talking about a legal right, what law you are referring to? If you mean a moral right, that’s a new one on me. Which of the great moral philosophers proposed this right? And do they mean that the father must be identified in all cases?

Bannasidhe

Caquas wrote: »

You think the State is miserly when private citizens seek redress??? Do you understand that the courts are part of the State i.e. the Judicial branch.

The Irish State showers millions on claimants and on their legal teams in medical negligence cases without doing anything effective to fix the failures and prevent medical negligence. And the HSE will never take action against its negligent staff, hence its liability.

If there is a lesson here for the Mothers and Babies Home scandal it is that nothing will be done to solve any current problem: the Homes are all closed, the power of the Churches has been broken, unmarried fathers are more feckless than ever, giving access to the original birth certs. will only generate further misery. But a powerful lobby will not be satisfied until compensation is paid.

To which I say - ah sure why not, so long as we can keep borrowing free money which we are never going to repay. But while we're at it why not pay compensation to all those forced to emigrate through the failure of successive Irish governments? The men who had to carry the hod while living in miserable kips in Kilburn and the women who worked as skivvies in conditions no better than those Homes and for employers who were as cruel and contemptuous as any Mother Superior. If only there was an influential lobby to agitate for the poor Irish!

I understand the difference between the Executive and the Judaical.
Do you?

The rest of your hyperbolic post has nothing to do with anything I expressed as my opinion.

iptba

I have been reading some of the report. I never knew much about the illegitimacy so found the following interesting:

One important thing for the child in the passing of an Adoption Act has not been stressed. As is well known in Britain, America and other countries where adoption takes place so regularly, the majority of the children adopted are not born in wedlock. They carry with them through life unless they are adopted with a disability which it is impossible to exaggerate. Without disclosing their illegitimacy they cannot enter for examinations, for university life, for the Civil Service, for marriage, or for many other things for which they might be fitted.

In countries where there are Adoption Acts an Adoption Certificate is given a legal equality with a Birth Certificate for the purposes for which it is required. Thus not only do the Adopting parents in countries where there is such an Act make the child their own and give it what it could never otherwise attain but they also shield it from one of the most terrible social deprivations.

stockshares

On the CB show it was reported at the end of the program that Galway County Council have issued an apology on the County Homes.
https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/galway-county-council-issues-apology-following-report-on-tuam-mother-and-baby-home/

Its more than likely a result of this call by Catherine Connolly in the last couple of days.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/galway-council-asked-to-apologise-over-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-1.4466628

Why do they have to be dragged into making an apology?

James Brown

stockshares wrote: »

On the CB show it was reported at the end of the program that Galway County Council have issued an apology on the County Homes.
https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/galway-county-council-issues-apology-following-report-on-tuam-mother-and-baby-home/

Its more than likely a result of this call by Catherine Connolly in the last couple of days.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/galway-council-asked-to-apologise-over-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-1.4466628

Why do they have to be dragged into making an apology?

Looking after themselves. They don't want any collateral damage due to association with any of the institutions/parties they belong too.

Mrs OBumble

stockshares wrote: »

Why do they have to be dragged into making an apology?

They were responsible for the home in Tuam.

Cluedo Monopoly

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They were responsible for the home in Tuam.

I think you completely missed the context of the question.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40214216.html

A report into mother-and-baby homes in Northern Ireland is due to be published today by the Stormont Executive.

Written by a group which the Northern Ireland Executive agreed in February 2016 to set up, it looked into the operation of about 12 mother-and-baby homes and four Magdalene Laundries from 1922-1999.

It was also tasked with looking into historical clerical child abuse which fell outside the remit of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse in Northern Ireland between 1922 and 1995, and which closed in June 2017.

Today’s report is expected to lift a lid on a little known period of Northern Ireland’s history.

While the numbers of unmarried mothers is believed be as many as 10,000, the infant mortality rates are not well known and today’s report is expected to deal with these.

The comparisons will be interesting. Especially the mortality rate and disposal of bodies.

Yellow_Fern

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Hmmmm. Your posts drip with empathy.

The missing 900 children at Bessborough were not all infants. I believe the oldest recorded death was 3 years old.

You might think it's plausible that the nuns don't know where these dead children ended up. Most don't think it's plausible. The commission did not think so.

Do you think they deserve to be buried with dignity? Or would you prefer they stayed disappeared?

3 year olds are considered infants. I dont know how they were buried but there is nothing undignified about how they buried at Tuam. It wasnt ideal. I would say it was far from idea but its a lot nicer than what happens to many miscarriages and cot deaths.

saabsaab wrote: »

Look at the wording! That doesn't stack up.



'will not give any information as to where the bodies of the over 900 children that died at Bessborough might be found. It can find no evidence that there were significant sums of money involved in sending babies to the US to be adopted, but then, it is the opinion of the commission that access to the administrative records of the congregations that arranged such adoptions be governed by the religious themselves.

For several years I have been trying to find the location of my great grand fathers grave. No luck. Maybe he was sold to Americans ?

Yellow_Fern

end of the road wrote: »

borrowing non-free money, which every country will do from time to time, has nothing to do with this.
yes the homes have gone and the church's power has been broken thankfully, however there is still the fact that the state was just as much responsible for the abuse and criminality that went on and therefore has to at the very least, face up to it.
if that means paying compensation, so be it.
as for issuing birth certs, everyone has a right to know where they come from, that's non-negotiable, and there will also be other information on them that they would be entitled to know, at least for potential medical reasons/issues that may arrise, because after all children were born and adopted out of these homes up until the 80s at least.

yes indeed there may be some upset caused to people from finding out the details, that's certainly unfortunate, and there will be privacy concerns for some, but the reality is ultimately that the right for someone to know who they are, or in some cases even when they were actually born, will have to be in some way upheld.

I am pretty sure Irish people dont have that right, at least not legally, and I dont see how that would be allowed to be added to the constitution given the boom in IVF and single mothers. But if someone is keen, just take a 23andMe test. It is easy and inexpensive.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20210122-joint-committee-on-children-disability-equality-and-integration-invites-written-submissions-on-general-scheme-of-a-certain-institutional-burials-authorised-interventions-bill/

At its meeting on Tuesday, 19 January 2021, the Joint Committee on Children, Disability, Equality and Integration agreed to invite written submissions from interested groups and individuals on the General Scheme of a Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill as part of its scrutiny of the proposed legislation.

The purpose of the Bill is to provide ‘the statutory basis and framework under which Government may decide to authorise interventions at certain sites where manifestly inappropriate burials have taken place associated with institutions operated by or on behalf of the State or in respect of which the State had clear regulatory or supervisory responsibilities’, and for the establishment of an Agency to carry out such interventions.

Submissions should only be sent to cbb@oireachtas.ie. The deadline for receipt of submissions is 12 noon on Friday, 19 February 2021.

Igotadose

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

3 year olds are considered infants. I dont know how they were buried but there is nothing undignified about how they buried at Tuam. It wasnt ideal. I would say it was far from idea but its a lot nicer than what happens to many miscarriages and cot deaths.


For several years I have been trying to find the location of my great grand fathers grave. No luck. Maybe he was sold to Americans ?

Really? Interred in a septic system in a shoebox?

Far from ideal? And Bessborough they might've just stuck the corpses in with other funerals happening. Why waste space in a coffin, eh?

And what do you think happens with cot deaths and miscarriages? And what happened to them, in the period in question?

(I realize I'm being trolled by a known anti-choice troll but bring it anyway)

saabsaab

There were similar stories about institutions around the world. USA, Wales, Newfoundland and Australia that I remember. I guess the powerless get trodden on.

Igotadose

saabsaab wrote: »

There were similar stories about institutions around the world. USA, Wales, Newfoundland and Australia that I remember. I guess the powerless get trodden on.

If the death rate at an institution in the 1940's in the USA was 80+%, there'd have been an investigation *then*. And probably convictions.


Here it is in Ireland decades later, and the lack of interest in justice (not sympathy, not compensation) is, well, pretty freaking sad but not surprising. Irish jurisprudence seems to be designed around protecting institutions like the Govt and it's colleague, the RCC, and never justice.

Really, the Irish character shines through in the reaction to this report. Always here it's 'anything for a quiet life.'

saabsaab

Igotadose wrote: »

If the death rate at an institution in the 1940's in the USA was 80+%, there'd have been an investigation *then*. And probably convictions.


Here it is in Ireland decades later, and the lack of interest in justice (not sympathy, not compensation) is, well, pretty freaking sad but not surprising. Irish jurisprudence seems to be designed around protecting institutions like the Govt and it's colleague, the RCC, and never justice.

Really, the Irish character shines through in the reaction to this report. Always here it's 'anything for a quiet life.'

Sadly not unique at all..see below re action being taken



'In the United States, however, no such reckoning has taken place. Even today the stories of the orphanages are rarely told and barely heard, let alone recognized in any formal way by the government, the public, or the courts. The few times that orphanage abuse cases have been litigated in the US, the courts have remained, with a few exceptions, generally indifferent. Private settlements could be as little as a few thousand dollars. Government bodies have rarely pursued the allegations.'


https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christinekenneally/orphanage-death-catholic-abuse-nuns-st-josephs

stockshares

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40214216.html



The comparisons will be interesting. Especially the mortality rate and disposal of bodies.

This thread by Mairead Enright has found some very good points about the NI report in comparison to here.
https://twitter.com/maireadenright/status/1354146134164451328?s=19

stockshares

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20210122-joint-committee-on-children-disability-equality-and-integration-invites-written-submissions-on-general-scheme-of-a-certain-institutional-burials-authorised-interventions-bill/



Submissions should only be sent to cbb@oireachtas.ie. The deadline for receipt of submissions is 12 noon on Friday, 19 February 2021.

It's good that Kathleen Funchion is on the Committee but I'm not sure who else is on it.

What's the procedure with it, how does it judge submissions?

I imagine lawyers will have to scrutinise every word in case the Gov try to weasel out of an inquest.

Yellow_Fern

Igotadose wrote: »

Really? Interred in a septic system in a shoebox?

Far from ideal? And Bessborough they might've just stuck the corpses in with other funerals happening. Why waste space in a coffin, eh?

And what do you think happens with cot deaths and miscarriages? And what happened to them, in the period in question?

(I realize I'm being trolled by a known anti-choice troll but bring it anyway)

That is has been debunked.

In many cases they would be chunked in another burial. They certainly get routely get headstones. I have friends who have done so but it doesnt always happen.

You are deluding yourself if you think someone would be here fact checking this thread for pleasure or trollish amusement.

Cluedo Monopoly

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

That is has been debunked.

There is indeed a septic tank full of dead children at the site of the Tuam mother and baby home. The only question mark is the number of children in it and how many other mass burial sites are there. There is a 2nd potential mass grave at the old Bon Secours hospital in Tuam which will also be analysed once the appropriate laws are passed.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-remains-of-hundreds-of-children-feared-buried-in-mass-grave-to-be-exhumed-37450152.html

Project to exhume and identify the remains is expected to cost between €6m and €13m

Bon Secours Sisters have offered “a voluntary contribution” of €2.5m

THE remains of hundreds of children feared buried in a mass grave at a former Bon Secours Mother and Baby Home are to be exhumed as part of a major forensic investigation.

The measure was approved by the Cabinet today after it was recommended by Minister for Children Katherine Zappone.

A “significant quantity” of human remains were discovered in underground chambers thought to have been used for the treatment of sewage waste water at the Catholic institution in Tuam, Co Galway.

Ms Corless told Independent.ie that the Government decision meant that a much wider area than just the sewage tank chambers would be investigated for remains.

“I have been adamant all along that there were burials in the surrounding area as well as in the tank,” she said.

“They have decided to do test excavations there [in the surrounding area] to find out exactly where they are.

“I have been saying all along that they can’t leave the rest of the burials.”

An international Expert Technical Group (ETG) report prepared for Ms Zappone said the situation in Tuam was unprecedented and that no comparable case could be identified either nationally or internationally.

The legislation is being drafted at the moment. Feel free to provide your insights. I provided the contact information earlier today.

To be honest, you have been debunked but please keep trying

John Hutton

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

There is indeed a septic tank full of dead children at the site of the Tuam mother and baby home. The only question mark is the number of children in it and how many other mass burial sites are there. There is a 2nd potential mass grave at the old Bon Secours hospital in Tuam which will also be analysed once the appropriate laws are passed.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-remains-of-hundreds-of-children-feared-buried-in-mass-grave-to-be-exhumed-37450152.html

Project to exhume and identify the remains is expected to cost between €6m and €13m

Bon Secours Sisters have offered “a voluntary contribution” of €2.5m





The legislation is being drafted at the moment. Feel free to provide your insights. I provided the contact information earlier today.

Being honest, you have been debunked

It is far from clear that the structure is or was a septic tank. People need to stop pre-empting the investigation and excavation.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

Cluedo Monopoly

John Hutton wrote: »

It is far from clear that the structure is or was a septic tank. People need to stop pre-empting the investigation and excavation.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

Nice try John but your article is 4 years older than yours after the Expert Technical Group reported. It is without doubt part of the sewerage system. The only question is the number of children in that particular site. Other sites in Tuam have been identified for further analysis. I will provide more details on their findings later.

Perhaps the religious order in question could save us all time and effort and tell us where the mass graves are? Logical no?

John Hutton

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Nice try John but my article is 4 years older than yours after the Expert Technical Group reported. It is without doubt part of the sewerage system. The only question is the number of children in that particular site. Other sites in Tuam have been identified for further analysis. I will provide more details on their findings later.

Perhaps the religious order in question could save us all time and effort and tell us where the mass graves are? Logical no?

You mean your article is four years newer?

Regardless, try reading it. It has not been confirmed that it is a septic tank, nor have the inconsistencies and questions brought to the fore by Rosita Boland been addressed.

I have commented numerous times on this thread about what I think of the missing burials.

800 dead children is bad enough without exaggerating and lying about it which is what so many media outlets have done saying there are 800 babies in a septic tank when everyone knows that is not, and cannot, be the case. Its truth that's needed here.

John Hutton

The interim report in 2019 reported that the multi chambered vault was clearly inappropriate, but that it was not a septic tank.

stockshares

John Hutton wrote: »

The interim report in 2019 reported that the multi chambered vault was clearly inappropriate, but that it was not a septic tank.

The fact that your arguing over whether it was a vault or a septic tank that the children were thrown into says it all about you .

You blame the media for its reporting but don't blame the religious order who ran the home and neglected these children.

The important point Is there should be an inquest and whoever is responsible held to account.

It's irrelevant what it is that they were thrown into. It's the fact that they were thrown is the problem.

Igotadose

stockshares wrote: »

The fact that your arguing over whether it was a vault or a septic tank that the children were thrown into says it all about you .

You blame the media for its reporting but don't blame the religious order who ran the home and neglected these children.

The important point Is there should be an inquest and whoever is responsible held to account.

It's irrelevant what it is that they were thrown into. It's the fact that they were thrown is the problem.

And again, where's the justice? Complaining that the media might be exaggerating is a massive 'so what.' It's about justice for these children. Court trial, evidence, possible convictions and penalties. Not the endless 'defend defend' we see in this society. If the RCC and the government can continue to operate independent of consequences for their egregious behaviors, they will.

Bannasidhe

John Hutton wrote: »

The interim report in 2019 reported that the multi chambered vault was clearly inappropriate, but that it was not a septic tank.

In 2017 activist Izzy Kamikazi did excellent work with Catherine Corless and secured copies of the plans of the old Union Workhouse in Tuam that became the Mother and Babies Home.
https://izzykamikaze.tumblr.com/post/89770303451/vaults-under-tuambabies-site-are-part-of-sewage-system

On the plans it can clearly be seen that the "vaulted chamber" is part of an extensive Victorian septic sewage system.

Now - until such time as a full investigation into the site is carried out it is impossible to dismiss any claim out of hand, but as it stands the documentary evidence supports the view that the chamber was part of the sewage system i.e. a septic tank.

stockshares

Maeve O Rourke and Claire McGettrick have an article in the Irish Times refuting what the Commission said about the Clan Project in its report.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/mother-and-baby-homes-inquiry-s-lack-of-transparency-was-damaging-1.4466658?mode=amp

Patsy McGarry of the Irish Times repeated what the Commission said as fact and that article was linked to earlier in the thread



Quote from Clann Project article above. It's not the full article

The commission of investigation’s final report claims, inaccurately, that it “received 61 statements from Hogan Lovell [sic]”. By December 2018, Hogan Lovells had submitted a total of 82 signed statements to the commission. These statements came from adopted people, mothers, relatives and other survivors of institutional abuse and/or the injustice of Ireland’s coerced, secret adoption system. We included statements that fell outside the limited terms of reference to demonstrate that these terms were too narrow and to show that all witnesses had valuable and relevant evidence. We asked the commission to recommend that its investigation be widened.

The commission’s final report also alleges: “One group requested a public hearing. When asked for reasons why, no reply was received.” As reported in this paper, the Clann Project is the group to which the commission refers. The commission’s assertion is patently untrue. On May 3rd, 2016, JFMR and ARA sent a letter to the commission with our reasons for requesting a public hearing, one of which was to remind the commission of the value of transparency. At a hearing before the commission on May 9th, 2016, counsel for JFMR and ARA Colin Smith applied for a public hearing, arguing on the basis of applicable human rights standards that the commission should exercise its discretion in favour of transparency. The commission declined our request, and Hogan Lovells wrote repeatedly to the commission during the summer of 2016 seeking an explanation as to why. Copies of all correspondence are with the Editor

TheChizler

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Now - until such time as a full investigation into the site is carried out it is impossible to dismiss any claim out of hand, but as it stands the documentary evidence supports the view that the chamber was part of the sewage system i.e. a septic tank.

Not that it's the core of the matter here but functionally a cess pool and septic tank are very different things. Both are types of sewage systems but it's a categorical syllogism to say they're the same.

Cluedo Monopoly

I meant to reply earlier but was having laptop problems.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-remains-can-be-identified-1.3460016

Hundreds of babies buried in a mass grave in a former religious-run mother and babies’ home in Tuam, Co Galway can be identified because of major advances in DNA testing, a team of scientists have declared.

The expert technical group (ETG) highlighted difficulties with the exhumation and identification of the remains held in an underground chamber and an adjoining, disused septic tank, because remains are “commingled”.

There are 796 infants missing but they don't know yet how many are in that particular chamber or elsewhere on Bon Secours grounds in Tuam. Same as Bessborough in many ways.

Cluedo Monopoly

stockshares wrote: »

The fact that your arguing over whether it was a vault or a septic tank that the children were thrown into says it all about you .

You blame the media for its reporting but don't blame the religious order who ran the home and neglected these children.

The important point Is there should be an inquest and whoever is responsible held to account.

It's irrelevant what it is that they were thrown into. It's the fact that they were thrown is the problem.

He was trying to spin a whole new narrative in another thread called 'Commonly believed historical inaccuracies' a few days ago. No honour.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mother-and-baby-homes-end-of-the-first-chapter-but-not-the-end-of-the-story-1.4468658

Mother and baby homes: ‘End of the first chapter but not the end of the story.

Report sets stage for debate in North, with focus on who is to blame for abuses.

It is hardly a consolation, but at least there are no references to Tuam home-type mass burials of infants. Different to the Republic, in the North mothers and their babies left the mother and baby homes soon after they were born.

Here, though, there was reference to St Joseph’s, a Catholic baby home in Belfast where some children from mother and baby homes were sent. The academics said it was “evident that mortality rates were alarming in this home between the 1920s and 1950s”. They said: “Death rates may have been as high as 50 per cent of those admitted at some points during the 1920s.”

The authors said in terms of mortality “firm conclusions can only be reached through an examination of the records of those other institutions that babies were sent to”.