Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

mrslancaster

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I wonder did anyone ask the Gardai why they did not make their appeal after Enda speech in 2017 or after Corless's discovery in 2013.

Probably the garda commissioners at the time were too busy with the bugging scandal & then the whistleblower scandal.:rolleyes:

Anything involving adopted people was ignored for decades but maybe Commissioner Harris will now do something about the crimes that were committed. The government focus on ensuring that affected citizens get access to their data has gone away again. Rog has been busy though, launching library initiatives for under 5's & consultations on flexible working time. Priorities are clear while those affected continue to suffer discrimination.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40284218.html

Number of children sent overseas for adoptions even higher than previously thought.

Hundreds of additional children may have been sent overseas for adoption than originally thought.

Evidence that at least 356 previously unknown Irish children were sent to Northern Ireland, Great Britain and a range of other countries for adoption was given to the Department of Health over 20 years ago but never made public.

Up until now, the State has only ever acknowledged that 2,132 children were sent abroad to be adopted between the late 1940s and the early 1970s - and all but 51 to the USA.

In a series of responses issued to the Irish Examiner, the AAI declined to express confidence that all of the children were removed by legal means stating that it “does not have sufficient information on each child to comment on this”.

It declined to name the 14 adoption agencies that provided the data in 1996 - citing data protection concerns but confirmed that both Catholic and Protestant agencies are involved.

The AAI notified the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of the new data in May 2019. However, it is not cited in the Commission’s final report, nor is the AAI cited as a source of information for its section on ‘Foreign Adoptions’ in chapter 32 of the report.

StarryPlough01

Continuing...

Mother and Baby Home Report




Solicitor Frank Brehany speaking…


A short Recap from yesterday - to lead in...

Brehany stated that he saw this in Garda statement: 'We can't get to the documentation." "Ah ah Garda Commissioner. That's incorrect because if you believe that a crime has been committed, you therefore have to respect the rights of those who have had crimes committed against them. They have Article 6 rights under the European Convention of Human Rights."

"And there are plenty of cases out there about deficient police investigations, which prevented victims from achieving a FAIR hearing under Article 6.


Frank Brehany continues...


But it goes further. Because those records will be held by a number of people. For example, Hyde Park Magdalene Laundry records are held by the Department of the Taoiseach, Tulsa has records from the Bon Secours Sisters, the religious orders have their own records - they're all over the place.

Under Section 6 of the Criminal Justice Miscellaneous Provisions Act of 1997, it provides extensive powers under An Garda Siochana (hereafter AGS) where a Sergeant and above can go before a Circuit Court Judge and apply for a warrant to enter search and seize items that will support an allegation against a person whereby an arrestable offence is being committed.


Powers that exist which can support actions of AGS


Frank Brehany answers here… "It's very odd policing to request that the victims come forward first if they have already stated that a crime has taken place. You should be accessing the records. OK this is the way they have decided to play. I can absolutely assure you - in other jurisdictions - that's not the way it's done.

Brehany @john. Let's take it in the scenario you are talking about John. A women has come forward and said that she was incarcerated in Tuam Mother and Baby Home. And tell me: 'My child was taken away from me. I suspect that my child died after I was taken away from the home. I was placed in a Magdalene Laundry.'


Brehany says: ^ So you see all issues of suspicious death, false imprisonment, imprisonment without a trial or Judicial Order. ^

There may be those who rely on 1923 Local Government Miscellaneous Provisions Act to support that, BUT that Act in Franks view does not override Constitutional provisions of individuals in 1922 and 1937 Constitution of the Free State and, ultimately, the Republic of Ireland.

Woman has presented facts. Constitutional rights are engaged to begin with. The question of whether or not subsequent act of the Dail such as 1923 override the Constitution is more than a moot point. Is something the Gardai and DPP would have to look at. And it is challengeable I suspect. Then despite those initial things - the woman is going to set out the circumstances - the facts. And, @John Ryan, there is another issue here about the METHODOLOGY OF INTERVIEW I really am concerned about - we can talk about it another time.

What we have is a set of allegations. And if the Gardai say 'Do you have any documentary proof?" The woman will obviously say "Well, No" - she might have a Birth Certificate or something like that - but nothing substantial to support the allegations and detail of the allegations.



But the response of any of these victims and survivors has to be - YOU, AGS, HAVE GOT POWERS IN LAW TO GO AND GET THE DOCUMENTS FOR ME. You (AGS) have to satisfy my right under European Convention of Human Rights and 'whatever my right' under the Constitution. And You (AGS) have extensive powers under 1997 Act to get a warrant and to get in there and get those documents. And assess my complaint against those documents. And then you can see clearly the extent of my complaint, and the crimes I'm alleging and the people involved. You will be able to help me as a victim identify from those records who the person(s) is / are who were responsible for those crimes.



And then when you come to issue of suspicious death of a child then you get deeper into the records. You may be talking about Bon Secours, the Galway County Council, you may be talking about TULSA records as well. There's a whole host of people.

John Ryan mention vaccinations. Frank Brehany agrees with John. Frank continues that's a very valid point. Because, you see, a suspicious death has been reported to AGS who are obligated to - whatever about Convention of HR issues - Article 2 & Article 6, etc., etc. AGS are obligated to investigate that death. That will require a pathologist's examination of any remains that are found. We all know that there are hundreds of bodies within the cesspits of Tuam. That's going to create an even bigger issue for AGS.

They (Garda Commissioner) may think that they are creating a situation where they can overcome the difficulties - present a TICK BOX. Actually it comes back to my opening point - they've opened up the gambit - they haven't maturely understood the implications of this.

Brehany doesn't believe that they can put this one to bed that easily. Because even if they do, there are complaints the victims and survivors can make to AGS Ombudsman. That opens a whole raft of issues.

It is a watershed moment - an interesting announcement. There are absolutely solid issues of concern about it being a tick box issue, about it being limited, closing off stories and Inquiries, and getting documents. Brehany thinks it will go the other way. It may not happen with a raft of cases, but it will certainly happen with a handful of cases.



....................................



STARRY: There's Article 40 4.2 of the Constitution - a Habeas Corpus (produce the body).


Irish Constitution - Irish Statute Book

Article 40 4.2​
​

4 1 No citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law.​
​
2 Upon complaint being made by or on behalf of any person to the High Court or any judge thereof alleging that such person is being unlawfully detained, the High Court and any and every judge thereof to whom such complaint is made shall forthwith enquire into the said complaint and may order the person in whose custody such person is detained to produce the body of such person before the High Court on a named day and to certify in writing the grounds of his detention, and the High Court shall, upon the body of such person being produced before that Court and after giving the person in whose custody he is detained an opportunity of justifying the detention, order the release of such person from such detention unless satisfied that he is being detained in accordance with the law.​

There's Article 37 of the Constitution

1 Nothing in this Constitution shall operate to invalidate the exercise of limited functions and powers of a judicial nature, in matters other than criminal matters, by any person or body of persons duly authorised by law to exercise such functions and powers, notwithstanding that such person or such body of persons is not a judge or a court appointed or established as such under this Constitution.​

2 No adoption of a person taking effect or expressed to take effect at any time after the coming into operation of this Constitution under laws enacted by the Oireachtas and being an adoption pursuant to an order made or an authorisation given by any person or body of persons designated by those laws to exercise such functions and powers was or shall be invalid by reason only of the fact that such person or body of persons was not a judge or a court appointed or established as such under this Constitution.​

I (Starry) just wonder how many of the unmarried mothers had lobotomies (pyscho surgery / lobotomy of the brain)? Tuam Mother and Baby Home's Bon Secours Sisters sent distressed women, who wanted to have their babies returned to them, to Ballinasloe Mental Asylum or Galway Magdalene Laundry. Bon Secours thought the girls and women were troublemakers [Source: Julia Devaney's oral testimony - tapes - Julia was at the Tuam Home in the early years until it closed its doors]. Another lady "Mary C" (a paid helper in 1950s) said when women escapees were returned to Tuam by Garda they were despatched to Balliasloe Mental Hospital. Mary C recounted how one escapee returned by guards had her hair shaved to the bone.


Since 1922, Ireland has had laws to prevent illegal incarceration, but establishment have colluded to prevent Justice and widescale deprivation of liberty. THE WOLF IS AT YOUR DOOR. .


@Catherine CORLESS, MS CORLESS HAS A COPY OF JULIA DEVANEY'S ORAL TESTIMONY - TAPES - NAMING NAMES - CORLESS SHOULD HAND OVER THESE TAPES TO AGS. Thank you Catherine.



To be continued...


_______________



References:

https://aran.library.nuigalway.ie/b...ill_R_McGettrick_C.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

fmresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/State_Involvement_in_the_Magdalene_Laundries_public.pdf

Yellow_Fern

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40284218.html

Number of children sent overseas for adoptions even higher than previously thought.

I am sure it saved many lives if it happened

cnocbui

Great; some children were spared the catholic church's answer to Pol Pot and the killing fields. Doesn't excuse the church and it's minions.

Yellow_Fern

cnocbui wrote: »

Great; some children were spared the catholic church's answer to Pol Pot and the killing fields. Doesn't excuse the church and it's minions.

Are they an Irish answer to Pol Pot's Killing fields when the church ran them or when the church and also when gov authorities ran them? Workhouses only closed in the north in 1948.

Cluedo Monopoly

Some good news, hopefully.

https://twitter.com/cmcgettrick/status/1391002970519650305

Time will tell. As Claire says, this bill represents the first major milestone in dismantling the veil of secrecy.

mrslancaster

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Some good news, hopefully.

https://twitter.com/cmcgettrick/status/1391002970519650305

Time will tell. As Claire says, this bill represents the first major milestone in dismantling the veil of secrecy.

Read somewhere that having a birth cert does not give adopted people access to their adoption file which has all their early years information. Is that true?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.thejournal.ie/adoptions-illegal-births-5433674-May2021/

'Groundbreaking' legislation will give adopted people access to birth certs and early life information.

The long-awaited Heads of Bill, which were published today, provide “a full and clear right of access” for adopted people and others with questions on their origins to birth certificates and related documents.

The legislation will encompass all people who may have a question in relation to their origins and support access to the broad range of birth, early life, care and medical information that may be contained in institutional or other records.

Finally. It's a basic human right.

mrslancaster

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/adoptions-illegal-births-5433674-May2021/



Finally. It's a basic human right.

It's great that adopted people will be treated equally after so many years. There must be so many people who are relieved with this news especially those groups that have campaigned for this right for so long.

Its strange that it doesn't include adopted people who have died (according to the linked article). Surely their children & decendants are entitled to their parents information & to know their heritage & medical information too.

Edit: They've treated adopted people differently to the rest of the citizens for decades & now they'll treat the children of adopted people differently?? If I want a copy of the birth cert of my mother, father or grandparents I can get it. But the kids of adopted people cant? More madness.

mrslancaster

Proposal is that adopted people over 16 can apply to GRO for birth cert & if birth parents don't want contact information released then adopted person must have a meeting with a social worker to have birth parents privacy rights explained to them. The GRO can then 'release' the birth cert.
That sounds a bit ott. What do they think adopted people would do? How would that work for adopted people living outside dublin, e.g. UK or US, would they have to come to dublin to meet a social worker or is it just a zoom meeting? If the adopted person absolutely wants no contact, can they forego the SW session?
I have read before that many adopted people don't want to contact or meet a birth family, they just want their own personal information.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40291748.html

International Criminal Court asked to investigate mother and baby homes and Magdalene Laundries.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) in the Hague has been asked to investigate the “violent legacy” of mother and baby homes, Magdalene Laundries, and industrial schools in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

A prominent legal firm in Belfast has lodged a 50-page submission to the ICC this week seeking a preliminary examination into whether the institutional abuse exposed in recent State-commissioned reports and inquiries amounted to “crimes against humanity”.

Among the issues cited by the law firm are the failure to inspect and regulate these institutions, forced labour and slavery, forced adoption, enforced disappearance and trafficking, inhuman and degrading treatment, and the medical practice of symphysiotomy, which amounted to torture.

Interesting to see what happens here.

mrslancaster

Minister o'gormans Committee on Children, disability, equality & integration inviting submissions on the proposed Birth Information & Tracing Bill 2021 from interested individuals or groups. Closing date 1pm Wednesday 9th June.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/14c5c-minister-ogorman-publishes-proposed-birth-information-and-tracing-legislation/

Cluedo Monopoly

8th judicial review against the Mother and Baby Homes Commission report. I expect there will be many more too.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/woman-who-gave-birth-at-mother-and-baby-home-sues-over-commission-finding-1.4571468

A woman who gave birth at a mother and baby home has brought a High Court challenge over a finding by the commission that investigated the homes that there was no evidence that births at those facilities had been illegally registered.

She was also told to sign the form using a false name, which she did. In recent years she discovered documents, including a birth certificate, that did not have her name on them, but rather the false name she had been directed to use.

Other documents relating to the adoption of a male child from Bessborough also contained the false name.

She believes that her child was unlawfully adopted, and made a criminal complaint to the gardaí.

The DPP has opted not to bring a prosecution in her case, which disappointed her.

In addition, she made a statement to the commission set up to report on mother and baby homes.

When the commission made its final report, the woman was astounded to read that the commission had concluded that it had not seen evidence of illegal registration of births which occurred in the homes under investigation.

She claims that the commission has erred in law and acted in breach of her rights in arriving at this finding.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/plans-rejected-for-apartment-development-on-site-of-former-mother-and-baby-home-1132904.html

Planning permission has been refused for a 179-unit apartment development on the site of a former mother and baby home in Cork.

This point was disputed by witnesses for MWB Two, however, an expert witness with over 46 years experience with OSi was called as a witness for the Cork Survivors and Supporters Alliance (CSSA) and told the hearing such maps had been recognised as the gold-standard in court, adding he believes there is a children's burial ground on the site as indicated on the trace map.

In its decision, the board added there are reasonable concerns regarding the potential for a children's burial ground within the site given its past use as a mother and baby home between 1922-1998.

Great news! Well done An Bord Pleanala.

Igotadose

Only peripherally related, but when another country finds evidence of massive child abuse and murder by the RCC, they are more or less honest about it, the government doesn't adhere to the RCC line and they do something about it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/28/world/children-remains-discovered-canada-kamloops-school/index.html

biko

Yeah, Timber started a thread on that one before I had the chance to ^^^

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-homes-oxford-university-5455330-Jun2021/?utm_source=twitter_short

Survivors and politicians express anger over Mother and Baby Home event

A NUMBER OF survivors and politicians have criticised the fact that one of the commissioners who examined mother and baby homes is speaking at an event organised by Oxford University today.

Professor Mary Daly is due to speak about the Commission of Investigation’s work at an online event organised by the university at 4pm today.

A number of survivors and politicians, including the chair and members of the Oireachtas Children’s Committee, have criticised the fact that Dr Daly is appearing at this event, after declining to appear before the committee as previously requested.

Social Democrats TD Holly Cairns, who is also a member of the Children’s Committee, told The Journal: “It is difficult to understand why Professor Daly is speaking at a private university event about the Mother and Baby Home Commission when she refused to appear before the committee.

Bad form really. Good that the politicians and survivors have highlighted it.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40304765.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

'Mother & Baby Homes inquiry discounted hundreds of survivors' testimonies

The Mother and Baby Home inquiry discounted the testimony of hundreds of survivors because it was given in private, a commission member has revealed.

Prof Mary Daly has admitted that the testimony of mothers and those born in institutions was not considered, as anything contained in the main report of the commission had to "meet robust legal standards of evidence".

Prof Daly has also hit out at interested parties who had "the nerve" to question the commission's findings and claimed they came up against "serious pushback" to their draft reports.

Survivors and representative groups have expressed shock and anger at Prof Daly's comments including her belief that allowing people give confidential evidence while the commission carried out its work was "not a wise idea".

Reacting to Prof Daly’s comments, Claire McGettrick of the Adoption Rights Alliance said: “It's impossible to adequately convey what has happened this afternoon. I've been working in this area for two decades but I've never seen anything like it.

“The dismissive attitude towards the testimony of survivors, mothers and adopted people was frankly breathtaking.”

Serious arrogance shown by the commission and survivors being treated dismissively.

https://twitter.com/LMcAtackney/status/1400129869527330816

Floppybits

The commission was nothing but another government whitewash. The truth is starting to come out now.

Cluedo Monopoly

It's headline news now. The truth is coming out. The reputation of the commission is in tatters.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0603/1225774-mother-and-baby-homes-ireland/

Tánaiste says seminar address on mother-and-baby homes 'disrespectful'

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar has said it was disrespectful to both the Oireachtas, and the survivors of mother-and-baby homes, for a member of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes to speak about its report for the first time to an academic symposium.

Professor Mary Daly spoke to an online Oxford seminar in Irish History yesterday, and said the commission was limited in what it could do due to the terms of reference it had to operate under.

She confirmed that the evidence provided by 550 survivors to the confidential committee was discounted, saying that the report "reads as realistic".

Speaking during Leaders' Questions in the Dáil this afternoon, Mr Varadkar said it was necessary "without delay" for the commission members to come before the Oireachtas Committee on Children to explain how they arrived at their conclusions and have a "similar engagement" with survivor groups.

He said this has occurred previously with both the McAleese and Scally reports, adding: "I can see no excuse or no valid reason for them not to do so, without delay."

He was replying to Labour leader Alan Kelly, who said the "devastating revelations" from Prof Daly meant that the commission's report was "not valid; it is not a historical record; it is not accurate".

Shebean

So to recap. the commission was put together to listen to and report on survivors stories. Survivors were told they would be heard. The report came out and survivors complained they weren't represented. There was talk of deleting the testimonies. We were told by some they didn't get the results they liked, tough. The suggestion being they were likely lying in their testimonies.
Now we know at least 550 testimonies were discounted because the architects of the report feared legal proceedings from the church.
Imagine 550 testimonies, discounted and then deleted?

A few points. What was the point of the report if the victims were ignored? Why not put belief/faith in 550 witness testimonies? Do we really think the church was going to take these survivors through the courts? It would have damaged the church greatly.

Scrap the report, use the testimonies. Maybe survivors should sue the church?
Utter cluster****. Was it stupidity, cowardice or set up to fail?

saabsaab

If it was thought that this report would put this to bed then it seems the opposite has happened. This is set to run and run and as I said before it may even bring down a Government.

Hotblack Desiato

This is a complete fúcking disgrace. :mad:

Cluedo Monopoly

Excellent piece by Mairead Enright.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40305245.html?type=amp

When the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation report was published earlier this year, many people were surprised by its limited findings.

The commission found “little” evidence of physical abuse, “no evidence” of gross abuse, “no evidence” that women were involuntarily detained, “no evidence” of forced adoption and so on.

At the same time, in the separate report compiled by the commission’s confidential committee, we found pages and pages of detailed personal testimony describing those very abuses. It was difficult to account for these contradictions and the report did not explain them.

Now, months later, we have more clarity.

What the commission could have done

It could have hired and consulted with Irish and international experts to fill gaps in its own expertise.

It could have used its interim reports to draw Oireachtas attention to its difficulties in producing a body of usable oral evidence.

It could have engaged openly with the Clann Project, which repeatedly drew attention to flaws in the commission’s methods.

Instead, it is clear from ProfDaly’s statements that the commission disregarded key evidence, and left half of its budget unspent rather than incorporate key oral evidence into its investigative processes.

It is great that the truth is finally coming out but the survivors had to wait many years for a poor investigation and a flawed report.

StarryPlough01

A huge number of influential and well-known Historians have already signed this form. They are all united in their DENOUNCEMENT of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes' Final Report.


https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe08-7dJRDFnH0WdHbAKJmKMv49CecbwDkiSEOZosbZvjzWsg/viewform



Mother and Baby Home Form

We write to express our concerns about the Final Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Mother and Baby Homes published in January. It was repeatedly described as scholarly and the historical sciences were used to legitimise the claims. On 2 June Professor Mary Daly gave a seminar at the Oxford Irish History series and revealed what we had suspected, that the testimony gathered by the Confidential Committee was not weighted equally with other forms of evidence. It is clear from yesterday's seminar that the Commissioners made no attempt to adopt a survivor-centred approach to historical research, and that the history was written without consulting survivors’ testimony. There are currently several cases before the High Court, taken by survivors who are seeking clarity on these points of basic historical methods: how was the data gathered, how was it collated, and why was the evidence to the Confidential Committee not used. It is troubling that the lack of a clear methodology chapter was not adequately addressed yesterday.

Professor Daly repeatedly called these important witness statements 'stories' and it was clear from what we were told yesterday, that from the outset and throughout the five year process, they would not receive full professional treatment.

No oral historians were consulted and, as a result, best professional and ethical practices were not followed.

Charges of 'contaminated' memories were levied against survivors in the Executive Summary. Yesterday Professor Daly appealed to us to 'Let it stand'.

We, as professional historians, cannot let it stand.



* Required


Name *
Your answer



Position
Your answer



Department
Your answer



University *
Your answer



Submit button



Open Letter - 'We Cannot Let It Stand'
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1luvMxO8f1vCTIwSq_toJy1-VCUBttr8W7QJjG9oYb6Y/mobilebasic



List of some Universities that signatories are affiliated to (and growing in number worldwide...):

University of Huddersfield
University of Salford
Maynooth University
Carlow College
Mary Immaculate College Limerick
UCD
University of Birmingham
Trinity College Dublin
University of Strathclyde
University of Edinburgh
University of Bristol
Oxford University
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Dr (name supplied) clinical psychologist
University of Melbourne
York University (Toronto)
Triton College
Aarhus University
University of Sheffield
NCAD
University of Leicester
Dept of Politics and Public Administration UL
University of Alberta
University of Galway
Royal Irish Academy
Oral Historian Independent
University of Sussex
University of Hertfordshire
University College Cork
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library UCLA
Utrecht University
University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Munster Technological University
London South Bank University
University of Southampton
St Francis Xavier University, Canada
University of Northumbria
New York University
Georgetown University
Open University, Ireland
University of Waterloo
Ulster University Belfast
University of Pittsburgh
Queen's University Belfast
University of Bath, UK (1977)
Newcastle University
Friedrich-Schiller Universitat, Jena, Germany
University of Cambridge
University of Westminster
National University of Ireland
German National Academy of Science, Leopoldina
Swansea University
Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland

....

Cluedo Monopoly

A good read if you have an Irish Times subscription.

https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1402163077265727488

Fintan O’Toole: Mother and baby report cannot be left to stand.

Flawed process deprives survivors of their stories and compounds injustice to them.

It is now entirely clear that the report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes cannot be allowed to stand. In the past week, deep doubts about the methodology and assumptions of the commission have turned into one abiding certainty: this report fundamentally misrepresents the experiences of the 550 survivors who gave evidence to the confidential arm of the commission.

Maeve O'Rourke was again superb on Prime Time tonight. She has been correct all along. Honest, courageous, intelligent, clear and concise. I wish we had many more like her.

MintyMagnum

This x 100

Maeve O'Rourke was again superb on Prime Time tonight. She has been correct all along. Honest, courageous, intelligent, clear and concise. I wish we had many more like her.

Yellow_Fern

It is 3000 page report and took years. If you want to deep into oral history it would have far longer. The Ryan report took 10 years. No one will want to join such a commission after this one's team was was dragged through the mud

saabsaab

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is 3000 page report and took years. If you want to deep into oral history it would have far longer. The Ryan report took 10 years. No one will want to join such a commission after this one's team was was dragged through the mud

Perhaps criminal investigations would have been the way.

Shebean

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is 3000 page report and took years. If you want to deep into oral history it would have far longer. The Ryan report took 10 years. No one will want to join such a commission after this one's team was was dragged through the mud

'dragged through the mud' suggests the criticism was uncalled for.


'oral history' or witness testimony along with the mass burial of children, are what a report is needed for. What this one was allegedly for. It was found not fit for purpose for numerous reasons. It was a complete waste of tax payer money and further insult to the survivors and their families.

I would welcome a class action suite against the church and state.

Yellow_Fern

saabsaab wrote: »

Perhaps criminal investigations would have been the way.

What charges? Anyone one alive would have worked in these place when became very humane after the 1960s. Not when the deaths were happening.

Shebean wrote: »

'dragged through the mud' suggests the criticism was uncalled for.


'oral history' or witness testimony along with the mass burial of children, are what a report is needed for. What this one was allegedly for. It was found not fit for purpose for numerous reasons. It was a complete waste of tax payer money and further insult to the survivors and their families.

I would welcome a class action suite against the church and state.

Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here

saabsaab

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What charges?



Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here

Criminal charges. A pretty long list was posted earlier in the thread.

cnocbui

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What charges? Anyone one alive would have worked in these place when became very humane after the 1960s. Not when the deaths were happening.

Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here

Deprivation of liberty, incest, abuse, rape, concealing of crimes: a 15% infant mortality rate indicates criminal conduct alone.

Shebean

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What charges? Anyone one alive would have worked in these place when became very humane after the 1960s. Not when the deaths were happening.



Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here

Hold the institutions to account.
That's not true. They always sold babies and always kept women prisoner well after the sixties.


Witness accounts are valid. As much if not more that the accounts written by the accused.

saabsaab

saabsaab wrote: »

Perhaps criminal investigations would have been the way.

Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.

Yellow_Fern

Shebean wrote: »

Hold the institutions to account.
That's not true. They always sold babies and always kept women prisoner well after the sixties.

There is no paper trail indicating selling. I would contend the idea that anyone was held prisoner but even it was case, anyone making decisions is long dead. you cant criminally charge an organisation

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

Deprivation of liberty, incest, abuse, rape, concealing of crimes: a 15% infant mortality rate indicates criminal conduct alone.

Some f those crimes could not have happened in the homes. Incest for one.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.

That was convenient

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

Some f those crimes could not have happened in the homes. Incest for one.

I wouldn't bet on that, personally. Given what went on with at least one Portuguese orphanage, the facilitation of conjugal visitations by fathers wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Catholic priests have long exploited nuns for sex.

I don't think there is any low that hasn't been plumbed by the Catholic church. Unsurprisingly front and foremost in the slaughter and rape of native children in Canada on an industrial scale.

Hopefully one day this ghastly organisation will be expunged from the face of the Earth.

Yellow_Fern

cnocbui wrote: »

Deprivation of liberty, incest, abuse, rape, concealing of crimes: a 15% infant mortality rate indicates criminal conduct alone.

The report mentions awful cases of rape and incent, but alike a lot of the testimonies contents, it mentioned it happening before admittance causing the pregnancies. I dont think the sisters would allow 'conjugal' visits

Shebean

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

There is no paper trail indicating selling. I would contend the idea that anyone was held prisoner but even it was case, anyone making decisions is long dead. you cant criminally charge an organisation

We have Irish people raised in America by families asked to make donations and their birth mothers who were told their children died.
What fool would keep a ledger on the sale of babies?


We had a report put together only after decades of advocates and victims lobbying the government.
550+ testimonies were ignored.
The report was a whitewash and a waste of tax payer money.
The witnesses/victims were lied to by the people behind the report.


We can assign accountability. We can believe 550+ people telling the same stories.
We can suspect religious organisations with a proven and accepted reputation for mental and physical child abuse and a church and state with a record of covering it up.

Those babies in Tuam and Kamloops didn't dig their own mass graves.

saabsaab

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.

'The Catholic Church is subject to civil law, garda investigators could obtain a search warrant from a judge to access some files on foot of a criminal complaint.

“There is no reason why gardaí wouldn’t be able to get a search warrant if they were investigating a crime and were able to show the judge that they were able to satisfy the requirements of the warrant,” Ring adds.
There is some precedent for this abroad: warrants have previously been used to access church files as part of criminal investigations in the US, the UK, Australia and Belgium.

Gardaí could play an alternative role in helping to initiate investigations.
Clann Project also called for a standalone unit to be set up within An Garda Síochána to facilitate survivors of mother and baby homes.'

Cluedo Monopoly

For those that missed Maeve O'Rourke on Prime Time last night.

https://twitter.com/RTE_PrimeTime/status/1402374033149239308

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40308026.html

Data Protection Commissioner raised repeated concerns with Mother and Baby Home Commission

The Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) wrote repeatedly to the Mother and Baby Home Commission raising concerns about the handling of sensitive survivor testimony and delays in responding to queries.

The DPC said it was “disappointed” that the commission had not quickly responded to one of its letters and warned that failure to respond to its concerns could be a breach of their duty of co-operation under data regulations.

In response, the Mother and Baby Home Commission said it had been given insufficient time to deal with the queries and said issues were being “conflated” in the letters.

The DPC said answers to its concerns should have been “immediately to hand” and that the tight deadlines were necessary given the commission was going to be wound down at the end of February.

A letter said: “This of itself, unfortunately, raises issues about the commission’s compliance with its GDPR obligations.”

n another letter to Children's Minister Roderic O’Gorman, Data Protection Commissioner Helen Dixon reiterated those concerns, saying it was “urgent in light of the commission’s forthcoming dissolution”.

No wonder the commission were so keen to destroy the testimonies.

Cluedo Monopoly

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

There is no paper trail indicating selling. I would contend the idea that anyone was held prisoner but even it was case, anyone making decisions is long dead. you cant criminally charge an organisation

BS.

Enda Kenny 2017

“We took their babies and gifted them, sold them, trafficked them, starved them, neglected them or denied them to the point of their disappearance from our hearts, our sight, our country and, in the case of Tuam and possibly other places, from life itself.”

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2021/0302/1200520-who-am-i-the-story-of-irelands-illegal-adoptions/

Cluedo Monopoly

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The report mentions awful cases of rape and incent, but alike a lot of the testimonies contents, it mentioned it happening before admittance causing the pregnancies. I dont think the sisters would allow 'conjugal' visits

Oh you've read the survivor's testimonies now? Tell us more.

The criminal offences related to Mother and Baby Homes that people can report to the gardaí include Sexual Offences:

Sexual offences: Rape (s.48 OAPA 1861), Indecent assault of a female or male (s52/62 OAPA 1861 ), Unlawful carnal knowledge of a girl under 15 (s1 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1935); Gross indecency (s11 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1885).

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.

Many survivors have already initiated high court actions against the state and the religious orders (Sacred Heart, Bons Secours etc). I have posted several of them already. The survivors can repeat their testimonies you know.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The report mentions awful cases of rape and incent, but alike a lot of the testimonies contents, it mentioned it happening before admittance causing the pregnancies. I dont think the sisters would allow 'conjugal' visits

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Many survivors have already initiated high court actions against the state and the religious orders (Sacred Heart, Bons Secours etc). I have posted several of them already. The survivors can repeat their testimonies you know.

As Yellow-Fern says, not all the crimes happened within the mother and baby homes.

Cluedo Monopoly

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As Yellow-Fern says, not all the crimes happened within the mother and baby homes.

I already responded to Yellow Fern on his knowledge of the survivors testimonies. The survivors still haven't got access to their own testimonies but he seems to have read them. Maybe he can send some detail on how the Mother and Baby home commission report details crimes committed outside the homes when their scope was the operations of the homes themselves

One question - are you happy that the survivors testimonies were disregarded by the commission?