Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I already responded to Yellow Fern on his knowledge of the survivors testimonies. The survivors still haven't got access to their own testimonies but he seems to have read them. Maybe he can send some detail on how the Mother and Baby home commission report details crimes committed outside the homes when their scope was the operations of the homes themselves

One question - are you happy that the survivors testimonies were disregarded by the commission?

It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

It was a commission of investigation. A flawed one. As I said, the court cases are coming. How else do you investigate if you ignore 550 survivor testimonies? Why did they bother to listen to the survivors? Complete waste of time?

After years of silence, testimonies were bravely given by survivors and subsequently disregarded. Abuse heaped on abuse.

O'Gorman sent an email this week to all survivors which stated the following;

Your evidence stands as a profound published account of the lived experiences of those who suffered within the walls of these institutions. For my own part, I want to be clear - you are believed. You have been profoundly wronged by our State and by the religious orders involved. The Government’s response is built first and foremost on this acknowledgement, and we have said that the response will not be bound to solely the recommendations contained in the Final Commission Report.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

Theres NOTHING 2nd hand about the testimonies of people who were abused

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

That's the credibility of the Bible done for then. Great, now can we please disolve the catholic church.

Marine Layer

Marine Layer wrote: »

Theres NOTHING 2nd hand about the testimonies of people who were abused

Seeing as I haven’t read the testimonies, I cannot comment. I can and will speculate about their ability to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

When I read reports that crimes committed within the homes included incest, you have to query this accusation.

Shebean

Deleted User wrote: »

As Yellow-Fern says, not all the crimes happened within the mother and baby homes.

We know they were at it in schools, gyms and church backrooms, but this is about a report into the Mother and Baby homes. What went on elsewhere isn't directly related and doesn't cancel it out.

Shebean

Deleted User wrote: »

Seeing as I haven’t read the testimonies, I cannot comment. I can and will speculate about their ability to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

When I read reports that crimes committed within the homes included incest, you have to query this accusation.

The report was not intended as a court document. It was a report. It neglected it's remit by ignoring 550+ eye witnesses. They should have gone to government and said due to legal concerns we cannot complete a full report unless the criteria is changed.
It could have been read out under Dail privilege or something. The survivors spoke and gave their names on national broadcast radio.
The report was a whitewash and the victims ignored once again.

Jerry Attrick

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

O'Gorman sent an email this week to all survivors which stated the following;

Your evidence stands as a profound published account of the lived experiences of those who suffered within the walls of these institutions. For my own part, I want to be clear - you are believed. You have been profoundly wronged by our State and by the religious orders involved. The Government’s response is built first and foremost on this acknowledgement, and we have said that the response will not be bound to solely the recommendations contained in the Final Commission Report.

I assume that the practical effects of O'Gorman's email to the survivors is that the State will have no option other than to instruct its lawyers not to contest the coming court cases. I wonder was the AG consulted.

mrslancaster

Shebean wrote: »

The report was not intended as a court document. It was a report. It neglected it's remit by ignoring 550+ eye witnesses. They should have gone to government and said due to legal concerns we cannot complete a full report unless the criteria is changed.
It could have been read out under Dail privilege or something. The survivors spoke and gave their names on national broadcast radio.
The report was a whitewash and the victims ignored once again.

Read recently that prof Mary Daly said threats of legal action from religious organisations impacted the commissions work.
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fmother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

Shebean

mrslancaster wrote: »

Read recently that prof Mary Daly said threats of legal action from religious organisations impacted the commissions work.
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fmother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

We've been discussing this. That's the problem. Why put together a report encouraged by victim testimony and then ignore 550+ witness statements? How can you claim you did a report at all? All we are left with is the Church saying they did nothing. A whitewash, a waste of money and an insult to the survivors.

As clear in my comment you quoted: "They should have gone to government and said due to legal concerns we cannot complete a full report unless the criteria is changed."

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

Seeing as I haven’t read the testimonies, I cannot comment. I can and will speculate about their ability to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

When I read reports that crimes committed within the homes included incest, you have to query this accusation.

I don't know why I bother but please provide a link to these reports you read "that crimes committed within the homes included incest". Trying to understand your obsession.

Cluedo Monopoly

mrslancaster wrote: »

Read recently that prof Mary Daly said threats of legal action from religious organisations impacted the commissions work.
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fmother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

I extracted a quote from the Journal link above.

Daly stressed on numerous occasions yesterday that the Commission’s hands were tied by the Terms of Reference it had to operate under, as well as the “looming” threat of legal action from the religious orders in question.

The potential legal action of survivors – which has now become a reality in several cases – was seemingly not given the same consideration.

Enright, who attended yesterday’s discussion, said that as the testimony given to the Confidential Committee was anonymised, it would be difficult for a religious order or person to say with certainty that a certain claim related to them.

Despite this, if an alleged perpetrator was identifiable they would have had the right under the Commissions of Investigation Act to review the report in draft form and make submissions on corrections.

No religious orders have lodged legal action related to the Commission’s findings, but a number of survivors are seeking to have elements of the final report quashed by High Court challenges.

A number of survivors have told The Journal this week they are “disappointed” that their right to reply and challenge certain elements of the report was seemingly not given the same weight as religious orders’ right to reply, describing the situation as “disrespectful” and “very frustrating”.

Enright said it has “always been the case” that the State is “willing to drag activist communities through the courts”. She said “the State seems quite happy to engage in that work as long as its survivors and victims”.

Cluedo Monopoly

This Tweet from Dr O'Rourke highlights the glaring disparity between the commission's findings and the testimonies from survivors which the Clann Project will continue to document. How could they ignore these testimonies and not tell anyone until after the report was published?

https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1402887768242524160

Click on the 2 picture of text.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

This Tweet from Dr O'Rourke highlights the glaring disparity between the commission's findings and the testimonies from survivors which the Clann Project will continue to document. How could they ignore these testimonies and not tell anyone until after the report was published?

https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1402887768242524160

Click on the 2 picture of text.

Two things stand out in that post.

1. Did the 16 year olds family not report the rape? If not, why not?

2. How many mothers have the luxury of leaving the housework to someone else? I remember scrubbing the kitchen floor the day before I went into Labour on my first. I wanted the house clean for when I brought my baby home.

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

Two things stand out in that post.

1. Did the 16 year olds family not report the rape? If not, why not?

2. How many mothers have the luxury of leaving the housework to someone else? I remember scrubbing the kitchen floor the day before I went into Labour on my first. I wanted the house clean for when I brought my baby home.

Either you have completely missed the point of the tweet or you have gone completely off topic. Both probably.

Still waiting for a reply/link on those reports you read

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117389684&postcount=2413

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Either you have completely missed the point of the tweet or you have gone completely off topic. Both probably.

Still waiting for a reply/link on those reports you read

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117389684&postcount=2413

Those are the difficult questions that need to be asked. They will most likely be asked in a court. Will the response be that the questioner has missed the point?

Shebean

Why don't we do a report into the homes and include both sides? We could interview survivors and take their witness testimony. We could lay it all out there for public record. People can choose to call the 550+ liars or forgetful but the victims will have an official voice. The church, if they've the brass neck can disagree as is their right. They can dispute it all, but at least the victims eye witness accounts would be on record as are the church's denials.
I would back an international human rights investigation into the religious orders and the Irish state for their involvement and covering up to present day.

Cluedo Monopoly

Well their goose is cooked now. Fine for Prof Daly to present to Oxford University but refusing to attend the Oireachtas committee. Shameful really.
Strong words from O'Gorman. FFG hiding in the shadows.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/commission-on-mother-and-baby-homes-faces-criticism-for-refusing-to-attend-oireachtas-committee-hearing-to-discuss-report-40528442.html

The Commission on Mother and Baby Homes have been criticised for refusing to attend an Oireachtas Committee hearing to discuss their report.

Children’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman said the Commission’s decision was “disappointing” and he urged them to reconsider their position.

“Attendance before the Joint Oireachtas Committee would have offered a further opportunity to clarify recently generated uncertainty, along with deeper questions regarding how the information contained in the Confidential Committee testimonies contributed to the general findings of the Commission’s Report,” Mr O’Gorman said.

“The Government is very conscious of the need to ensure that the lived experiences of the 550 who attended before the Confidential Committee are clearly heard and understood as part of our history. I have stated that I believe survivors, and this belief must be demonstrated,” he added.

Ms Funchion, who is chair of the Oireachtas Committee, said: “It is clear that the Mother and Baby Homes report cannot stand and must be repudiated. The Commissioners' work has been severely undermined by their recent actions and survivors no longer have confidence in their work.

To be honest, this whitewash report and the controversy surrounding it will probably do more good in terms of justice for the survivors and the victims in the long run. Time will tell but I am hopeful.

Igotadose

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

To be honest, this whitewash report and the controversy surrounding it will probably do more good in terms of justice for the survivors and the victims in the long run. Time will tell but I am hopeful.

Sad to see this, though, and pretty damn pyrrhic victory to have produced a less-than-useless report that maybe sometime down the road the gummint and the RCC will possibly maybe do a little better.

Really need 3rd party outside Ireland to do this investigation. Irelands repeatedly proven it can't, and based on the earlier post talking about legal action due to the Ryan investigation legal findings shows the Constitution isn't really fit for purpose - the High Court finding that it might impugn the individuals in the "Christian" Brothers when they're called out as the pedophiles they were, is broken.

Ireland lacks freedom of speech and a functional judiciary. Proven again and again.

"Hope is not a strategy"

Shebean

We need an international led human rights investigation.

Yellow_Fern

Ms Funchion is out of line here. You cant force the judiciary to be examined by a Oireachtas committee. It is a breach of the separation of powers. Funchion just wants theatre, not truth.

The Commission report isn't perfect but its an extraordinary detailed 2700 page investigation that is as detailed as you will get in the short amount of time and money that they were given.

Cluedo Monopoly

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Ms Funchion is out of line here. You cant force the judiciary to be examined by a Oireachtas committee. It is a breach of the separation of powers. Funchion just wants theatre, not truth.

The Commission report isn't perfect but its an extraordinary detailed 2700 page investigation that is as detailed as you will get in the short amount of time and money that they were given.

Ah yes, so it's ok to tell Oxford University about their flawed research methods but not elected representatives or government. Give over. The people that defended the accuracy of this report, even though they had not read the testimonies, are feeling particularly foolish now.

TANAISTE LEO VARADKAR has described as “deeply regrettable” the decision by the Commissioners from the Mother and Baby Homes investigation to decline another invitation to appear before the Oireachtas to answer questions about their report.

Minister O'Gorman: The decision of the former Commission members not to attend the Joint Oireachtas Committee is disappointing, and I would urge them to reconsider. The Government is very conscious of the need to ensure that the lived experiences of the 550 who attended before the Confidential Committee are clearly heard and understood as part of our history. I have stated that I believe survivors, and this belief must be demonstrated.

O'Gorman: I will work to bring proposals to Cabinet on how the experiences of those who gave evidence before the Confidential Committee can be recognised and officially reflected. I will engage with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on this point.

The survivors will be heard. The victims will be treated with respect. The truth will come out.

Cluedo Monopoly

Shebean wrote: »

We need an international led human rights investigation.

I believe you will see that eventually. It's already happening in NI.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40291748.html

The International Criminal Court (ICC) in the Hague has been asked to investigate the “violent legacy” of mother and baby homes, Magdalene Laundries, and industrial schools in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-mother-and-baby-homes-criminal-investigation-5324576-Jan2021/

Human rights charity Amnesty International was among those who called for criminal prosecutions in light of the report’s publication, citing unregistered deaths and higher levels of infant mortality in the institutions compared to wider society.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40249787.html#:~:text=The%20group%20has%20asked%20the,dignified%20burials%20have%20taken%20place.

The United Nations (UN) has been urged to intervene in the Government's handling of Bessborough and other former mother and baby home sites.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) has written to Fabian Salvioli, the UN's special rapporteur on truth, justice and reparations to raise concerns about the mother and baby homes commission report and a proposed Burials Bill that would allow for the exhumation of remains at Tuam and other sites.

"We have alerted him to the real possibility that the government’s plan to deal with historic and ongoing rights violations will be insufficient to meet Ireland’s human rights commitments under international law, specifically the UN Framework on Transitional Justice," ICCL head of legal and policy, Doireann Ansbro said.

In its letter, the ICCL urges Mr Salvioli "to engage the Government of Ireland on its handling of institutional abuse allegations and approach to institutional burial sites" and specifically mentions the former Bessborough mother and baby home.

UN Special Rapporteur on the Sale of Children raises serious concerns regarding Ireland’s history of illegal adoption practices

Yellow_Fern

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Ah yes, so it's ok to tell Oxford University about their flawed research methods but not elected representatives or government. Give over. The people that defended the accuracy of this report, even though they had not read the testimonies, are feeling particularly foolish now.

TANAISTE LEO VARADKAR has described as “deeply regrettable” the decision by the Commissioners from the Mother and Baby Homes investigation to decline another invitation to appear before the Oireachtas to answer questions about their report.

Minister O'Gorman: The decision of the former Commission members not to attend the Joint Oireachtas Committee is disappointing, and I would urge them to reconsider. The Government is very conscious of the need to ensure that the lived experiences of the 550 who attended before the Confidential Committee are clearly heard and understood as part of our history. I have stated that I believe survivors, and this belief must be demonstrated.

O'Gorman: I will work to bring proposals to Cabinet on how the experiences of those who gave evidence before the Confidential Committee can be recognised and officially reflected. I will engage with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on this point.

The survivors will be heard. The truth will come out.

It would be like bringing a judge to the Dail to question him on a specific ruling. They cant do that and I think it's basically the same everywhere from what I can see. The gov and the predecessor of OGormon designed the Commision, buck stops with them for not designing it in a way that suits them. As another poster pointed out, there are many issues using the 500 or so witnesses to produce a Commission report. What would have been better would be use that for a seperate oral history project. The confidential committee report is not perfect but it is certainly not ignoring their voices.

Worth a read. It is not easy to read but the sisters dont really come across as the main villains in the testimonies. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d693a-report-of-the-confidential-committee-to-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-october-2020/

Regarding death rates, demographers typically model all infant mortality before 1800 as 40%. Worth bearing that in mind.


I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

Igotadose

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

Dubious? AI? UN Special Rapporteurs? Your proof is, other than the fact you disagree with them. Proof, as in, something you can bring to court and reasonably expect the court to agree with you.

Or are you simply trolling (which has been your MO for awhile on this thread)

Cluedo Monopoly

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The confidential committee report is not perfect but it is certainly not ignoring their voices.

I ignored the rest of the muddying attempt.

2 examples. The report said there was a lack of evidence of forced adoption and abuse. Utter nonsense and I have schooled you on that before. That has been rubbished continually since January. Over 10 court cases have been initiated as a result of those 2 conclusions alone. The Gardai have received many criminal complaints already. Aragh I am wasting my time. You have just one motive and truth & justice for survivors isn't part of it.

I wouldn't take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously.

Ok

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It would be like bringing a judge to the Dail to question him on a specific ruling. They cant do that and I think it's basically the same everywhere from what I can see. The gov and the predecessor of OGormon designed the Commision, buck stops with them for not designing it in a way that suits them. As another poster pointed out, there are many issues using the 500 or so witnesses to produce a Commission report. What would have been better would be use that for a seperate oral history project. The confidential committee report is not perfect but it is certainly not ignoring their voices.

Worth a read. It is not easy to read but the sisters dont really come across as the main villains in the testimonies. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d693a-report-of-the-confidential-committee-to-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-october-2020/

Regarding death rates, demographers typically model all infant mortality before 1800 as 40%. Worth bearing that in mind.


I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

From the linked report “Limitations of this report
This report outlines the experiences of those who chose to recount their experiences. They are not a representative sample of the residents of the institutions under investigation. The Commission has no doubt that the witnesses recounted their experiences as honestly as possible. However, the Commission does have concerns about the contamination of some evidence. A number of witnesses gave evidence that was clearly incorrect. This contamination probably occurred because of meetings with other residents and inaccurate media coverage.”

It makes interesting reading.

Igotadose

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Worth a read. It is not easy to read but the sisters dont really come across as the main villains in the testimonies. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d693a-report-of-the-confidential-committee-to-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-october-2020/

Stuff and nonsense. Only to an RCC apologist lackey like you do they not come across as 'the main villains.'

249 occurrences of the word 'nun' in the document. Some gems

" the women who had offered the witness a job came to visit her
after the birth and confirmed her offer of a home and a job but the witness told her that
the nuns in the mother and baby home would not allow this, insisting that her only
option was to send her son for adoption either in Ireland or the USA"


"When
in the mother and baby home she told the nuns about the abuse, ‘they wouldn’t listen
to me’."

"She hated the home and remains ‘extremely angry ‘about her time there and her
treatment by the nuns’."
====


30 seconds search. So, how do you decide the sisters don't come across as the 'main' villains? Do you agree they were, at best, 'accessory villains?'

cnocbui

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

Evidence please?

On the other hand, the Catholic church is one of the most dubious and odorous organisations on the planet.

Igotadose

cnocbui wrote: »

Evidence please.

On the other hand, the Catholic church is one of the most dubious and odourous organisations on the planet.

Second time the RCC apologist has been asked the same question. Don't get your hopes up for a reply.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Stuff and nonsense. Only to an RCC apologist lackey like you do they not come across as 'the main villains.'

249 occurrences of the word 'nun' in the document. Some gems

" the women who had offered the witness a job came to visit her
after the birth and confirmed her offer of a home and a job but the witness told her that
the nuns in the mother and baby home would not allow this, insisting that her only
option was to send her son for adoption either in Ireland or the USA"


"When
in the mother and baby home she told the nuns about the abuse, ‘they wouldn’t listen
to me’."

"She hated the home and remains ‘extremely angry ‘about her time there and her
treatment by the nuns’."
====


30 seconds search. So, how do you decide the sisters don't come across as the 'main' villains? Do you agree they were, at best, 'accessory villains?'

What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.

Why are you always deflecting?

Badly fukt

Badly fukt wrote: »

Why are you always deflecting?

Commenting on the contents of the report isn’t deflection. It’s pointing out facts.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.

Do you agree the Nuns were villains?

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

Do you agree the Nuns were villains?

Some were.

Do you agree that the families must shoulder some of the blame for those unfortunate girls who had no choice but enter the mother and baby homes?

Cluedo Monopoly

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Commenting on the contents of the report isn’t deflection. It’s pointing out facts.

Except the report is about the operation of the Mother and Baby homes and you continually bring up irrelevant 'facts' with no links.

Igotadose

Deleted User wrote: »

Some were.

Do you agree the Nun's employer, the RCC, should be liable for their behavior?

Do you agree that the families must shoulder some of the blame for those unfortunate girls who had no choice but enter the mother and baby homes?

Of course, plenty of familial blame to go around. Liability, however, only applies to those profiting from the abuse of the women in question.

uptherebels

Deleted User wrote: »

Some were.

Do you agree that the families must shoulder some of the blame for those unfortunate girls who had no choice but enter the mother and baby homes?

Blame for what? That a society so heavily influenced by the morally bankrupt RCC felt the need to have these homes in the first place, doesn't take away from the atrocities committed in them. The actions of the church and religious institutions are theirs to shoulder and theirs alone.
Your attempts to deflect won't change that.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Except the report is about the operation of the Mother and Baby homes and you continually bring up irrelevant 'facts' with no links.

Here’s a link for you. Read it and weep. https://assets.gov.ie/118671/0df04013-bfc5-4241-b01e-773504253793.pdf

If the families accepted their responsibility and cared for their daughters, there would have been no need for mother and baby homes.

The thought of those same caring families paying for someone else to do their, the parents, job is shameful.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Commenting on the contents of the report isn’t deflection. It’s pointing out facts.

You are constantly deflecting from the religious orders and the mother and baby homes to blame the families and all of society for the wrongs that were committed in these homes

Badly fukt

Badly fukt wrote: »

You are constantly deflecting from the religious orders and the mother and baby homes to blame the families and all of society for the wrongs that were committed in these homes

Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

So in your eyes they were all rapes, incest and dirty women having sex outside wedlock. Your agenda is obvious.

uptherebels

Deleted User wrote: »

Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

What blame are you apportioning?

Badly fukt

Badly fukt wrote: »

So in your eyes they were all rapes, incest and dirty women having sex outside wedlock. Your agenda is obvious.

Where did you get that from?

Girls got pregnant. Some from rape. Some from incest. Some from what they thought were loving relationships. Some very young girls. Many, many of then totally innocent about the consequences of sex.
Instead of caring for them and their babies, families dropped them off at mother and baby homes for someone else to take care of what the families considered to be the problem. Sometimes even paying the nuns for the pleasure!
Some pregnant girls went to these homes voluntarily, giving their babies up for adoption, in the wish that by doing so that their babies would have a better life.

Yet some can only see that the nuns, RCC, etc were pure evil.

Remember that there are two sides to every story. Try looking at both.

Where you see the RCC, nuns, society as being to blame, I hold the families equally responsible.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where did you get that from?

Girls got pregnant. Some from rape. Some from incest. Some from what they thought were loving relationships. Some very young girls. Many, many of then totally innocent about the consequences of sex.
Instead of caring for them and their babies, families dropped them off at mother and baby homes for someone else to take care of what the families considered to be the problem. Sometimes even paying the nuns for the pleasure!
Some pregnant girls went to these homes voluntarily, giving their babies up for adoption, in the wish that by doing so that their babies would have a better life.

Yet some can only see that the nuns, RCC, etc were pure evil.

Remember that there are two sides to every story. Try looking at both.

Where you see the RCC, nuns, society as being to blame, I hold the families equally responsible.

A society who's morals were dictated to by the RCC. A government who were under the control of the RCC to uphold these morals. Society didn't create this!

The Constitution is pretty much a prayer book. The Dail and council meetings start with a prayer. Religious doctrination happens in our schools. The religious orders ran out hospitals.

cnocbui

In those times, the societal mores that drove such awful behaviour by families were almost entirely inculcated by the CC and it's awful attitude to sex and women. And this was deliberate, as having bad outcomes for girls and women who didn't toe the line on Catholic moarality, was really a boon.

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Do you understand that the Mother and Baby Home commission primarily focused on what happened in the Mother and Baby homes themselves? For example where do you put the blame for the exceptional mortality rates within the homes?

The report called the infant mortality rates the most "disquieting feature of these institutions." Bessborough had mortality rates up to 75% in certain years most probably from willful neglect.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-accused-of-disrespect-1.4591094

Good read with input from some of the most prominent activists.

Mari Steed urged the Government to repudiate the report formally and for a body such as the United Nations to investigate or use evidence collected by the commission to draft “a better evidentiary document”.

Historian Catherine Corless, whose research revealed the deaths of children at the mother and baby home in Tuam, Co Galway, questioned why commission member Prof Mary Daly could not appear at the committee when she spoke about the report at an Oxford University event just over a week ago.

“Why can’t she say the same things in front of the Oireachtas – what’s the difference?” she asked.

NUI Galway human rights lecturer Dr Maeve O’Rourke said the Government should insist on a notice being affixed to the report stating that it had not accepted the commission’s findings in light of concerns around the research methods followed by the commission.

“It is a very good example of how not to investigate massive human-rights violations,” she said.

uptherebels

Badly fukt wrote: »

A society who's morals were dictated to by the RCC. A government who were under the control of the RCC to uphold these morals. Society didn't create this!

The Constitution is pretty much a prayer book. The Dail and council meetings start with a prayer. Religious doctrination happens in our schools. The religious orders ran out hospitals.

For some reason this is repeatedly ignored by the apologists when they try to shift blame.

uptherebels

Deleted User wrote: »

Where you see the RCC, nuns, society as being to blame, I hold the families equally responsible.

Equally responsible for what exactly?
Being in the homes?
Those women and children being victims of atrocities perpetrated by the church?
For some reason you don't seem to want to say.