Shooting incident in Kanturk, Co. Cork (Mod note in op)

GoneHome

bassy wrote: »

would a MOD just close this thread..............................................................

Why??? It's all over Twitter and to a lesser extent Facebook.

Mellor

KiKi III wrote: »

I don’t like this conflation of mental illness and horrific violence. Plenty of mentally ill people out there, most don’t kill their families.

Nobody said most people with mental health commit violence.
They suggested people who commit violence, may have mental health issues. They are two different subsets of people.

KiKi III wrote: »

Firearms didn’t cause this tragedy? Well they played a major fücking part in it. There’s a good chance all of them would be alive still if he was swinging a baseball bat or a golf club at them rather than firing a gun. I know which I’d rather take my chances against.

I didn't say it wasn't a factor. I said it didn't cause it. Do you understand what cause means? Or are you suggesting that he was possessed by a firearm.

If there are no firearms, the guy doesn't suddenly become rational and discuss his grievances. He likely still flips, but grabs a knife from the kitchen or whatever. I also can't help but notice you left the knive example out of your post. :rolleyes:
And if the guy grabs a knife from the kitchen, this is likely still a tragedy. And nobody is saying we need to ban knives. Why, because they recognize that the knife wasn't the cause nor the issue.

ILoveYourVibes

Mellor wrote: »

Nobody said most people with mental health commit violence.
They suggested people who commit violence, may have mental health issues. They are two different subsets of people.

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Whoever committed the murders was obviously mentally unwell. Dont assume these were the actions of a rational person's mind.

Did it ever occur to people maybe he was just greedy?

Mellor

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Did it ever occur to people maybe he was just greedy?

Lots of people are greedy and covet their families inheritance.
It takes more than greed to spill blood over it though. That shouldn't be hard to grasp or controversial in any way.

ILoveYourVibes

Mellor wrote: »

Lots of people are greedy and covet their families inheritance.
It takes more than greed to spill blood over it though. That shouldn't be hard to grasp or controversial in any way.

Speaking as someone from a family where it did happen. No ....it doesn't take more than greed.

Mellor

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Speaking as someone from a family where it did happen. No ....it doesn't take more than greed.

People in your family were murdered by a family member over inheritance?

Do you think think those actions indicate perfectly sound mind, albeit just greedy?
I'd agree that greed is likely the primary motive, but that doesn't exclude the fact that the actions are completely irrational. No level of greed makes a rational person think killing people is a reasonable way to get what you want.

ILoveYourVibes

Mellor wrote: »

People in your family were murdered by a family member over inheritance?

I don't want to be judged. But i am anon.

Some of my family history has kind of made me feel .....like i was a bad person in my blood.

A brother of my mother's ...when she was very little ....he wanted his trust fund or inheritance early. The family had money. The dad was ..torn though. And also ...these things mature differently. You can invest the same sum for different kids ...and because it was at different times etc they come out to be a different sum for each child. There isn't anything you can do about it.


Well he was not happy with what he was given.

So one night while my mother was sleeping with the rest of his family.....he set the house on fire.

Its a miracle no one was killed.

He was bought a ticket to Austrailia ....and given some money and told never to come back.

He wasn't mentally ill. He had been spoiled. He was raised to believe the family business was his ...lord of the manor syndrome.

You have to accept people will promise you this ..and in the end leave it to someone else ...and you have to accept people will get more than you in your family ...my sibling will get more than me ....etc...or you will get nothing.

You just have to be ok with it.

People forget ..a will is the last thing your loved says to you ....where they put their money. It says something i guess.

But you just have to get over it.

People always say ..oh i don't care if family leaves anything ..

But you also have to not care if your sibling gets a lot and you get nothing. Parents don't always see fit to divide things evenly and they can even have good reasons not to. It can mean splitting up a valuable asset in way that devalues it. It can be they feel one family member needs more financial support. Or they don't trust a family member to manage money well.

What Username Guidelines

GoneHome wrote: »

Well there was a media blackout from 8.30 this morning, after the first victim been found at 7.30, then no update until about 2 pm this afternoon as negotiations were ongoing, I've seen reports on several news sites of that since, actually got a whatsapp message from a member of my extended family at 10 am this morning while the whole thing was going on.

Timing is correct but I don’t think the hostage situation is true.

Media blackout was because they had not confirmed the exact situation.

Issue started early in the morning and by the time the local Gardai arrived on scene there had already been reports of further gunshots heard locally. It’s likely it was all “over” at that stage from reading reports.

ERU and negotiators being flown down was purely to be prepared. Unfortunately negotiators never had a chance to be used. Gardai entered the house around lunchtime and found a body, and then used the air support unit to search the land, finding the other two bodies.

gimli2112

without reference to any specific case I think there are situations where people have a mental illness that genuinely doesn't let them see right from wrong but in other cases people are just bad people

ILoveYourVibes

I mean if the guy had survived ..i wouldn't be saying lets get a lynch mob. I would be saying lets try and reform him and help etc.

But i don't think its always right to say when White Irish men shoot their own fathers and bothers its a mental illness.

munster87

Mellor wrote: »

Lots of people are greedy and covet their families inheritance.
It takes more than greed to spill blood over it though. That shouldn't be hard to grasp or controversial in any way.

Humans have killed since the beginning due to greed, that shouldn’t be hard to grasp.

Mellor

munster87 wrote: »

Humans have killed since the beginning due to greed, that shouldn’t be hard to grasp.

Reading comprehension is a skill. Every word is usually important.
Killing due to greed, is not the same as killing just due to greed.

Same way that Jeffery Dahmer wasn't a bloke who was just lonely.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't want to be judged. But i am anon.

I donlt think anyone will judge you. Certainly not me.

Well he was not happy with what he was given.

So one night while my mother was sleeping with the rest of his family.....he set the house on fire.

Its a miracle no one was killed.

He was bought a ticket to Austrailia ....and given some money and told never to come back.

He wasn't mentally ill. He had been spoiled. He was raised to believe the family business was his ...lord of the manor syndrome.

support. Or they don't trust a family member to manage money well.

Obviously I can't comment on specifics. And wasn't actually looking for details, just clarifying the post.

I can see how a spoiled person with nogratitude of sense of value might set a fire in an act of vandalism. The same say that a child might smash a toy to get revenge. But I think that's very different to setting a fire in an attempt to kill people sleeping in the house. Attempted murder is another act, to do so with complete disregard for human life is not normal functioning.

munster87

Throw a ‘just’ into my original comment.

Mellor

munster87 wrote: »

Throw a ‘just’ into my original comment.

Which would make it untrue in this context

We aren't talking about rival clans, or desperate criminals, etc. There has been all sorts of wars and death in the name of lining pockets. Where the people simply didn't care about the people on the other end. Largely because they were depersonalised (pretty much how all killing in "war" works).
Between family members is very different. It doesn't happen all the time, it's no shade of normal imo.

the hedgeman

I see there in media reports that the guards had to go to a incident/altercation at the farm around a month ago

Mrsmum

I think, in a general sense ( haven't a clue about this case), when it comes to inheritance, it can be jealousy more than anything. Jealousy is a really rotten emotion and a devil to get control of.A person who isn't particularly greedy at all, who just considers themselves deserving of 'fair play' can have their guts twisted with jealousy at another's good fortune. Especially if there is no love lost anyway, that can quickly turn to hatred. If one was just greedy, they would likely fight on but with jealousy and hatred, the red mist blocks out all rational.

ILoveYourVibes

the hedgeman wrote: »

I see there in media reports that the guards had to go to a incident/altercation at the farm around a month ago

I hope they inquire whether something more could have been done to prevent this by the guards.

MrMusician18

According to newstalk this morning, the land belonged to the mother who is in poor health. The family didn't farm it, but had it leased.

Very sad.

jackboy

This case is just the extreme end of a very common issue in Ireland. Land comes before everything in rural Ireland, including family. People raised in urban areas find that hard to believe in this day and age but it has not eased.

Loads of cases of long emigrated relatives flying home after a death to get their pound of flesh.

JeffKenna

jackboy wrote: »

This case is just the extreme end of a very common issue in Ireland. Land comes before everything in rural Ireland, including family. People raised in urban areas find that hard to believe in this day and age but it has not eased.

Loads of cases of long emigrated relatives flying home after a death to get their pound of flesh.

Plenty of urban people have fell out over inheritance and money.

MintyMagnum

sasta le wrote: »

The mother lucky to be alive

Sadly has a serious illness
I wouldn't call her lucky

jamieon

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Very bleak news. Hard to believe a will alone could drive such a horrific situation.

Wouldnt be the first time, plenty of documented cases like this in Ireland

Trouser Snake

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I hope they inquire whether something more could have been done to prevent this by the guards.

What would you have suggested they do before this tragedy happened? There's no one to blame here except he who pulled the trigger, three times at least.

munster87

Mellor wrote: »

Which would make it untrue in this context

We aren't talking about rival clans, or desperate criminals, etc. There has been all sorts of wars and death in the name of lining pockets. Where the people simply didn't care about the people on the other end. Largely because they were depersonalised (pretty much how all killing in "war" works).
Between family members is very different. It doesn't happen all the time, it's no shade of normal imo.

You said it takes more than greed to spill blood over inheritance. I disagreed.

Rip those who lost their lives. Terrible tragedy.

KiKi III

Mellor wrote: »

Nobody said most people with mental health commit violence.
They suggested people who commit violence, may have mental health issues. They are two different subsets of people.


I didn't say it wasn't a factor. I said it didn't cause it. Do you understand what cause means? Or are you suggesting that he was possessed by a firearm.

If there are no firearms, the guy doesn't suddenly become rational and discuss his grievances. He likely still flips, but grabs a knife from the kitchen or whatever. I also can't help but notice you left the knive example out of your post. :rolleyes:
And if the guy grabs a knife from the kitchen, this is likely still a tragedy. And nobody is saying we need to ban knives. Why, because they recognize that the knife wasn't the cause nor the issue.

I also fancy my chances better against a knife than a gun. Particularly if it’s one man with a knife versus two unarmed men. Why is it so hard for people who like guns to admit how wildly dangerous they are?

Why don’t we ban knives? Because they have a hundred other purposes. Guns don’t.

kippy

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I hope they inquire whether something more could have been done to prevent this by the guards.

Hindsight is great in these types of cases. Unfortunately the Gardai can't win either way.
What a tough job.

Mrsmum

If it is true that the guards were called to the house previously, that shows that anger was really spilling out of control. Most families that have fierce rows amongst themselves, don't end up with the guards being called. Maybe not the best household to allow three guns in ?

Field east

Trouser Snake wrote: »

What would you have suggested they do before this tragedy happened? There's no one to blame here except he who pulled the trigger, three times at least.

KiKi III wrote: »

I also fancy my chances better against a knife than a gun. Particularly if it’s one man with a knife versus two unarmed men. Why is it so hard for people who like guns to admit how wildly dangerous they are?

Why don’t we ban knives? Because they have a hundred other purposes. Guns don’t.

Maybe the law covering gun / firearm ownership needs to be reviewed and give the guards more discretion as to who should have a firearm and who should not. I have direct experience of three situations where guns were removed / handed in by a third party to the local police stations in situations where suicide was threatened/ using a gun to threaten a family was made. The guns in all 3 situations were returned after some time. Regretfully the suicide situation ended in tragedy. In the other two situations the persons passed away before anything happened. The target families lived in fear until they passed away. My thoughts are with the remaining family members in that very very. Sad Kenturk shooting

Witcher

Mrsmum wrote: »

If it is true that the guards were called to the house previously, that shows that anger was really spilling out of control. Most families that have fierce rows amongst themselves, don't end up with the guards being called. Maybe not the best household to allow three guns in ?

The Gardai get called to rows between couples over tv remotes. The Gardai being called is often a sign that it's not normal for them tbh.

Families that tear strips off each other regularly tend not to get the Gardai involved.

Mrsmum

Witcher wrote: »

The Gardai get called to rows between couples over tv remotes. The Gardai being called is often a sign that it's not normal for them tbh.

Families that tear strips off each other regularly tend not to get the Gardai involved.

Maybe they do but I'm sure the guards also get called to many domestics where having a gun in the house would be a very bad idea.