Shooting incident in Kanturk, Co. Cork (Mod note in op)

Mrsmum

Sadly it is often the case too that parents are the drivers or at least add hugely to the toxic relationships between siblings by using inheritances as a threat or sometimes by being too cagey about what is going to happen forcing their children to compete.

the hedgeman

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Unfortunately it seems to make sense as not sure how else they ended up in the field together (sense being a relative thing in this terrible tragedy)

It seems 2 guns found at field scene so it must have been adversial at that stage between father and son found at that scene

paddy no 11

the hedgeman wrote: »

It seems 2 guns found at field scene so it must have been adversial at that stage between father and son found at that scene

sadly thats not the only option

the hedgeman

paddy no 11 wrote: »

sadly thats not the only option

I know,but maybe 1 could be trying to get away to save their own life

osarusan

IT reporting that when the mother and older son came back from her trip to hospital in Dublin, they stayed with neighbours for a few days.

So tensions were high for some time. The first night the two moved back into their own home, this happened the next morning.

Jesus, it's so grim.

paddy no 11

the hedgeman wrote: »

I know,but maybe 1 could be trying to get away to save their own life

maybe.....my idle speculation thinks thats not how it played out, hopefully ballistics will inform and what happened can be partially understood

ChikiChiki

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is only one person who truly knows what went on. Aside from the press release from the Gardai, almost everything else thats being printed is supposition, rumour, gossip or full on fiction.

A paper never refused ink as the saying goes.

Even on this thread there has been wild speculation.

Irish Times seem to have some finer details leading to the assertion that they may have a source close to the case.

You are correct though in that there is one person who truly knows the events of Monday morning and indeed the build up.

Mrsmum

osarusan wrote: »

IT reporting that when the mother and older son came back from her trip to hospital in Dublin, they stayed with neighbours for a few days.

So tensions were high for some time. The first night the two moved back into their own home, this happened the next morning.

Jesus, it's so grim.

A sick woman having to stay with neighbours rather than go home, moreover in Covid times, really does paint a picture of high tension at home. Grim is right.

eviltwin

lexi-lexi wrote: »

According to that Irish times article it's the father and older son that shot the younger one and then fled outside ?! Bit different from the initial reports that it was one son that shot the others

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/son-23-who-died-in-suspected-cork-murder-suicide-was-due-to-graduate-1.4392196?mode=amp

God that is shocking

I have to admit when I read mark was found in the bedroom I assumed he had killed the other two and then himself. I feel awful now for thinking that.

KiKi III

Sounds like ...


<Snip>

KiKi III

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Irish Times seem to have some finer details leading to the assertion that they may have a source close to the case.

You are correct though in that there is one person who truly knows the events of Monday morning and indeed the build up.

I’d be very surprised if the IT was printing gossip here. The knowledge about them staying with neighbours and that the wife managed to escape to (different?) neighbours suggests one of them has talked. No one but the wife herself would know they burst in on him like that.

Mrsmum

KiKi III wrote: »

Sounds like ...


<Snip>

But because she was a married woman, does not half her farm belong to her husband anyway. No ?

BlaktainPicard

eviltwin wrote: »

God that is shocking

I have to admit when I read mark was found in the bedroom I assumed he had killed the other two and then himself. I feel awful now for thinking that.

Thought the same myself, terrible tragedy, really grim.

You'd be amazed the amount of fighting that goes on over wills, I know people already fighting over it - parents alive and well and siblings barely speaking to one another over some poxy inheritance.

Mrsmum

KiKi III wrote: »

I’d be very surprised if the IT was printing gossip here. The knowledge about them staying with neighbours and that the wife managed to escape to (different?) neighbours suggests one of them has talked. No one but the wife herself would know they burst in on him like that.

Or the source was from the guards. It often is.

suicide_circus

eviltwin wrote: »

God that is shocking

I have to admit when I read mark was found in the bedroom I assumed he had killed the other two and then himself. I feel awful now for thinking that.

Yep that's exactly how i read it. Easier to think that one of the 3 lost the plot rather than 2 being in some murder suicide pact.

Nekarsulm

Mrsmum wrote: »

But because she was a married woman, does not half her farm belong to her husband anyway. No ?

Depends. Could still be in her parents/fathers name.
Could have been left to her in such a way as that she had sole control of it.
That'd be a discussion for the Courts to decide on.

Either way, it was a valuable asset.
150 acres of tillage land probably worth 10 to 13,000 an acre to sell. Worth 15 to 20,000 a year in rent.

Mrsmum

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Depends. Could still be in her parents/fathers name.
Could have been left to her in such a way as that she had sole control of it.
That'd be a discussion for the Courts to decide on.

Either way, it was a valuable asset.
150 acres of tillage land probably worth 10 to 13,000 an acre to sell. Worth 15 to 20,000 a year in rent.

And there again, was there not some new law lately that a parent couldn't completely cut out one of their children or did I dream that ?

MrMusician18

Mrsmum wrote: »

But because she was a married woman, does not half her farm belong to her husband anyway. No ?

No. A spouse is only entitled to 1/3 of the estate where the deceased has children. This is a legal right and is regardless of whether or not the valid will states this

This legal right share can consist of just the family home alone if it is valuable enough.

KiKi III

Don’t know why my post was snipped when all the information in it is in national papers today.

MrMusician18

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Depends. Could still be in her parents/fathers name.
Could have been left to her in such a way as that she had sole control of it.
That'd be a discussion for the Courts to decide on.

Either way, it was a valuable asset.
150 acres of tillage land probably worth 10 to 13,000 an acre to sell. Worth 15 to 20,000 a year in rent.

I imagine the rent is more substantial than that. Id expect good land to be fetching €300/ac/yr.

Nekarsulm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I imagine the rent is more substantial than that. Id expect good land to be fetching €300/ac/yr.

Could easily be, I'm too far away to know what local rents are like, especially to a long term renter.

Graces7

jackboy wrote: »

This case is just the extreme end of a very common issue in Ireland. Land comes before everything in rural Ireland, including family. People raised in urban areas find that hard to believe in this day and age but it has not eased.

Loads of cases of long emigrated relatives flying home after a death to get their pound of flesh.

When I first came to ireland my landlady and a neighbour were in dispute for years over a fence boundary . Maybe 3 foot of land.

Later a landlord had been attacked in court for literally 20 years by a neighbour over the ownership of an access lane.
and so on.

See also Michael Healy Rae in Kerry; he and a neighbour ended up in hospital over the ownership of a lane.

Nekarsulm

Mrsmum wrote: »

And there again, was there not some new law lately that a parent couldn't completely cut out one of their children or did I dream that ?

I think a child can contest a parents will if they can prove they have not been adequately provided for ( in terms of education, compared to other siblings).

kippy

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No. A spouse is only entitled to 1/3 of the estate where the deceased has children. This is a legal right and is regardless of whether or not there is a valid will.

This legal right share can consist of just the family home alone if it is valuable enough.

This is not entirely true and there are more caveats and variables involved than just that.

This is an awful case but I note people seem to think that issues arise 'only in ireland' or there is some inherent issue in the Irish when it come to land. This is not true at all.

PhilOssophy

jackboy wrote: »

People raised in urban areas find that hard to believe in this day and age but it has not eased.

One of the most famous inheritance family disputes in this country is involving a south-Dublin pub and business. Sadly in that case, only the legal trade will win. There are any amount of other rows - just because family farms are "juicer" for the media to report on, doesn't mean siblings don't end up in the courts over their parents house or fall out over what happens to it.

screamer wrote: »

I’ve seen farmers here now leave their farm as a cooperative between their kids, so no one owns it, it’s a business and if you want proceeds from it, you work to earn it. I think it’s fair enough.

Recipe for an even bigger row. One sibling works harder than the other, and another row ensues. You can't manage affairs from the grave so best to sort them out in life.

I grew up on a farm, got well educated by my parents and now have a good job. My brother has busted his asre on the family farm since he left school and will inherit it. Good luck to him and I wish him all the best, he has a good living out of it and I bear no ill will.

No amount of money will erase the hearbreak that a breakdown in family relations must cause. If I thought I'd fall out with my siblings over a will, I'd hate every cent of it.

Why do people feel they need to do equally in their parents will? It is yet another example of the worst 3 words in any part of our society - "I'm entitled to".

The tragedy of this case is the age of the people involved. I was expecting them to be old bachelors in their 40-50's with a father in his 70's-80's not willing to transfer the land. Not 2 young well educated lads with every opportunity in life given to them and a bright future ahead. Speculation on what happened is for others on here - there are no winners and everybody lost. The poor mother/wife left behind to deal with this.

Graces7

Requiescent in pace.

Let us hope that this dear lady has really good neighbours and a supportive GP and priest in this next while.

The funerals alone.

Prayers .

Ten of Swords

KiKi III wrote: »

Don’t know why my post was snipped when all the information in it is in national papers today.

You speculated about a possible reason for the origins of this situation and then you made a further speculation about the shooting incident itself. Neither of these things were in any media reports that I have read. If you wish to discuss this further do so via PM only. Thanks

walshb

Reading the timeline of events in the independent.

All four were in the house when shooting started?

Yet two bodies found outside nearby in a field..

Two sons well-educated men with their whole lives ahead of them..

Widdensushi

The great tax advantages farmers get in these situations may only have exacerbated the issues.

Mellor

munster87 wrote: »

You said it takes more than greed to spill blood over inheritance. I disagreed.

By spilling blood, I was refer to the murder in this situation.
You can't possibly suggest that a person of could mind could react like that.

Rip those who lost their lives. Terrible tragedy.

Agree

KiKi III wrote: »

I also fancy my chances better against a knife than a gun. Particularly if it’s one man with a knife versus two unarmed men. Why is it so hard for people who like guns to admit how wildly dangerous they are?

Why don’t we ban knives? Because they have a hundred other purposes. Guns don’t.

What have chances got to do with anything? You claim it was caused by having a firearm. The fact that, if a firearm was not there, a knife could have been used, proves that claim is nonsense. Blaming firearms for these tragedies is silly.

Guns are licensed for many legal purposed. Legally owned firearms count for very few deaths and injurys. A fraction of knives are linked to.

Cars are also dangerous. We regulate and control who can use them. Dispite that, accidents happen.