Is the west tired of Democracy?

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

A very Eurocentric take.

What view were you looking for on an Irish forum?


Its more that elements of the Western elite are tired of meritocracy and democracy

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

The original comment was about poverty in the UK.

Not true. The original comment on poverty was by completedit which never mentioned the UK:

completedit wrote: »

Millions maybe billions lifted out of poverty. Most peaceful era in our history and quality of life that would have been unthinkable 100 years ago
I don't think we are truly able to grasp how bleak existence was for the majority of our ancestors.

Dyr

Padre_Pio wrote: »

that's a very simplistic view that's been rubbished here many times.
"oh sure in the 70's a single income family could buy a house, a car and raise 5 children".

.

Oddly enough, the sea change in the 70s was we finally doubled the workforce with women entering it en masse, ya won't see the whingers mentioning that though

mariaalice

Bambi wrote: »

What view were you looking for on an Irish forum?


Its more that elements of the Western elite are tired of meritocracy and democracy

Who are the western elite?

McHardcore

McHardcore wrote: »

Not true. The original comment on poverty was by completedit which never mentioned the UK:

McHardcore wrote:

The number of people in this thread claiming that poverty is increasing is astounding

Apart from the completedit comment, the next two posters were about the UK. So... the number of people claiming that poverty... yup.

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

The original comment was about poverty in the UK.

No, that comment by completedit wasn't about the UK. Try that again:

Deleted User wrote: »

Apart from the completedit comment, the next two posters were about the UK.

ChikiChiki

I see sheep wrote: »

It doesn't work.

For you. You can make it work if you want to.

I find the people that claim capitalism has failed and socialism is the true path forward tend to be lazy unimaginative sods looking for an avenue to blame for failings in their own lives.

AMKC

What else is there besides Domocracy? Socilism or Communism no thanks. They would just be worse.
As for North America, well it's just a basket case. Any country that elects a reality president as there President is a basket case if you ask me.
Hopefully he will be gone soon but what he leaves behind might take longer to go.

McHardcore

McHardcore wrote: »

]comment by completedit wasn't about the UK. Try that again:

Not what I said... did you even read what I wrote before replying?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not so much democracy, more the implipentation of it in some countries. You just have to look at the US election to see that the system has massively failed over there. Ditto the UK.

Some countries manage to get it working - New Zealand for example, but they still have problems.

Ultimately, it's not the system that's failed, it's the poulace.

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

Not what I said... did you even read what I wrote before replying?

Even when you are presented with your own comment correcting your previous comment, you cannot admit you were wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

mariaalice wrote: »

What is the alternative though that is the big question?

The alternative is to have an independent commission and very strict election rules. Have every party and candidare work with the same budget. If you get caught telling blatant lies or cheating, you get warned. Do it twice, you're disqualified. If you're convicted of corruprtion, you go on a register and are banned from running again, in the same way pedophiles are banned from working with kids.

circadian

Well, if we don't get a handle on how to tax/account for automation then poverty will grow in the Western world. There's no chance millionaires and billionaires will decide to benevolently contribute to society whilst replacing people with automated systems, we need to legislate for this ourselves.

I believe in the idea of Socialism. I don't think it'll work as long as capitalism exists as they are not mutually compatible. I do think, that in the far flung future we'll have some semblance of what we believe to be Socialism. Many tasks will be automated, resources will be distributed as needed and poverty largely a thing of the past. We have a long, long way to go to reach that though.

Cordell

That independent commission will be the focal point of corruption, because this is what happens when you concentrate too much power in a single place.
The system here in Ireland is one of the best in the world, if not the best. Anyone can run, and every vote counts.
Corruption and influence will always be there, and money means power, this is not something that can be fixed with commissions, or at all. No system is perfect, but democracy is the best there is.

Dyr

spook_cook wrote: »

I think social media, the ability of news outlets to now have real time info on what the public want and don't want, coupled with advances in AI,

Oh deary me, do you actually believe that?

440Hertz

There are many approaches to democracy.
I mean, if you look at ours, it’s full based on a proportional representation parliamentary system. We have low barriers to entry, campaigns are simple and cheap to carry out - still mostly about posters and knocking on doors. We have relatively weak (and increasingly so) parties and power isn’t very concentrated and there’s very easy access.

We’ve also made use of referenda and increasingly use participatory and deliberative democracy through the Citizens Assembly model and we have managed to have very mature, nuanced and in-depth national debates around some very challenging issues ahead of several recent referenda.

Then contrast that with say the much older US system with a two party democracy, that’s been basically drifting towards elected autocracy, and that isn’t just my opinion, it’s a big concern being raised by academics and those conducting studies.

You can’t just look at the problems in one system and assume that they apply across all of western democracy. Some systems have big issues, others really don’t.

You’ve also had slips toward and actually into autocracy, notably in places like Hungary and Poland is headed that way too, but again you’re looking at countries with very little modern experience of democracy at all - your talking about the late 80s and early 1990s since the end of authoritarian communism and totalitarian states. There really haven’t given democracy much of an opportunity to bed in if they’re already fed up with it.

Then you’ve Turkey which is really standing on the brink of walking away from being a secular democracy and taking up strong man authoritarian government, with a highly religious flavour.

Those places are outliers in this. Democracy is still working fine in most of the world that uses it. It’s just that the US in particular is going through a very rough patch and that’s been echoing around due to the very prominent position the US has historically held or at least granted itself as self proclaimed “leader of the free world”

amadangomor

AMKC wrote: »

What else is there besides Domocracy? Socilism or Communism no thanks. They would just be worse.
As for North America, well it's just a basket case. Any country that elects a reality president as there President is a basket case if you ask me.
Hopefully he will be gone soon but what he leaves behind might take longer to go.

For real democracy the US needs to get rid of the lobbyists. Any country where the politicians can be legally bought by big business is not a democracy.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

spook_cook wrote: »

Have nutcases like Éirígí, alphabet soup leftie parties with tens of members (all members of every party), National Party etc get the same funding as mainstream parties with thousands/tens of thousands of members?

No thanks.

Set the stage for false flag events to get rid of a candidate? E.g. pull down a bunch of your own guy's posters, blame it on the other lad's supporters etc.

No thanks.

If they're as bad as you claim, what's the problem? They'll never get in.

Unless you're scared of the message they'll get across....

amadangomor

Padre_Pio wrote: »

that's a very simplistic view that's been rubbished here many times.
"oh sure in the 70's a single income family could buy a house, a car and raise 5 children".

Not true in an equivalent sense. Anyone today could do the same if they stuck to the living standards of the past.
Today, people in general want more, and the opportunity is there for most. Why are the children limited to warehouse jobs, considering there's still a booming STEM sector in every Western country?



Maybe, but you could say the achievements in the West were built on the backs of people in the East. Our conditions got better, theirs didn't. Now their conditions are on the up and ours not so much.

Rampant consumerism is a problem alright and long term is terrible for the future of mankind. We were probably consuming too much in the 70s already for a sustainable future and now consumerism is on steroids.

If you grew up in a working class industrial background people don't value education or see education as a means of improving ones lot.

A great example of this is in the North where a lot of catholics have used education to move up while the unionist industrial parts have stagnated.

Catholics didn't have access to the industrial jobs that unionists did so as soon as education was open to them they grasped that. Unionists in former industrial areas have the mindset of leaving school at 15, getting a trade in Harland and Wolff or somewhere similar. These sort of jobs don't exist anymore.

The same pattern is to be seen in the US and Britain. Middle class people send their kids to college. Ireland is an exception in that a huge proportion of the population wants to get a college education.

paddythere

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The current system is about exploiting the earth and her resources no matter what the cost. The way we're going it can only lead to war and famine. Democracy means that all that matters to politicians is growing the economy and providing jobs, as that's mostly what people will vote for. So we're kinda screwed.

I agree. Its the cultural hegemony that Gramsci talked about. The idea that a growing economy makes a government successful is just so short sighted but this idea reigns supreme.

breezy1985

No

McHardcore

McHardcore wrote: »

Even when you are presented with your own comment correcting your previous comment, you cannot admit you were wrong.

Because I'm not.

paddythere

AMKC wrote: »

What else is there besides Domocracy? Socilism or Communism no thanks. They would just be worse.
As for North America, well it's just a basket case. Any country that elects a reality president as there President is a basket case if you ask me.
Hopefully he will be gone soon but what he leaves behind might take longer to go.

Have you ever heard of democratic socialism by any chance?

440Hertz

paddythere wrote: »

Have you ever heard of democratic socialism by any chance?

That stuff most of Europe uses, including here, and that America uses but isn’t able to say the name of because they’re irrationally terrified of the word “social” and imagine they all life as self sufficient frontiersmen/women, not in any way supported by a socially provided national highway infrastructure, school system, significantly big public health expenditure, policing, a huge army, all those mad projects that were state funded through DARPA that ended up creating the underlying technologies for the Internet, farm subsidies, regulatory agencies, city transit authorities, COVID helicopter money payments, bank and industry bailouts, regulated mortgages, funding for vaccine development ...

I could go on....

We’re all living in social democracies of various shapes and forms in the West.

paddythere

ChikiChiki wrote: »

For you. You can make it work if you want to.

I find the people that claim capitalism has failed and socialism is the true path forward tend to be lazy unimaginative sods looking for an avenue to blame for failings in their own lives.

I find its the other way around. The lazy people are those who just accept the accepted wisdom that Capitalism beat Communism/Socialism in the cold war and therefore Capitalism is the best system.

We don't even really have capitalism anyway. Bank's are bailed out by taxpayers when they screw up and this incentivizes them to gamble (because sure why not). The largest companies in the country don't pay any tax while working people are taxed to fcuk and living conditions are worsening (rent too high, health system is getting worse).

amadangomor

paddythere wrote: »

I agree. Its the cultural hegemony that Gramsci talked about. The idea that a growing economy makes a government successful is just so short sighted but this idea reigns supreme.

Yes, this is the nub of the problem with democracy.

No long term thinking and what is best for the population. It encourages short term thinking and populism as the next election has to be factored in.

One for everyone in the audience budgets was a particular favourite by FF in the Celtic Tiger years.

China has serious problems but they can at least employ long term strategies and do things that are good for the country that may be unpopular.

paddythere

440Hertz wrote: »

That stuff most of Europe uses, including here, and that America uses but isn’t able to say the name of because they’re irrationally terrified of the word “social” and imagine they all life as self sufficient frontiersmen/women, not in any way supported by a socially provided national highway infrastructure, school system, significantly big public health expenditure, policing, a huge army, all those mad projects that were state funded through DARPA that ended up creating the underlying technologies for the Internet, farm subsidies, regulatory agencies, city transit authorities, COVID helicopter money payments, bank and industry bailouts, regulated mortgages, funding for vaccine development ...

I could go on....

We’re all living in social democracies of various shapes and forms in the West.

I don't disagree. I tend to call it state capitalism personally.

PhilOssophy

So what the OP is looking for is Hitler or one of those mad fellahs?

ILoveYourVibes

To answer the OP
No they are tired of the LACK of democracy.

paddythere

PhilOssophy wrote: »

So what the OP is looking for is Hitler or one of those mad fellahs?

What was the logic behind this conclusion?

440Hertz

paddythere wrote: »

I don't disagree. I tend to call it state capitalism personally.

It’s often not state capitalism though. It’s actually social provision or socially useful things, frequently without any profit motive at all - arts funding, public libraries, many health and welfare supports... list goes on and on.

There’s an imagination in the USA in particular that it’s possible to live in an off grid bubble and they sell them spend a narrative of the self made man & pulling yourself up by your bootstraps without any social supports. It’sa mythology that’s based in American history and in more modern history about terror of Soviet style communism and various red scares. Europe and most other democratic parts of the world just aren’t as hung up on the term “social”.

There’s a lot of subtly lost when you start vilifying words and basic concepts like that.

ILoveYourVibes

paddythere wrote: »

What was the logic behind this conclusion?

When one tires of democracy presumably one seeks dictatorships.

ILoveYourVibes

440Hertz wrote: »

It’s often not state capitalism though. It’s actually social provision or socially useful things, frequently without any profit motive at all - arts funding, public libraries, many health and welfare supports... list goes on and on.

There’s an imagination in the USA in particular that it’s possible to live in an off grid bubble and they sell them spend a narrative of the self made man & pulling yourself up by your bootstraps without any social supports. It’sa mythology that’s based in American history and in more modern history about terror of Soviet style communism and various red scares. Europe and most other democratic parts of the world just aren’t as hung up on the term “social”.

There’s a lot of subtly lost when you start vilifying words and basic concepts like that.

It is state capitalism. Its built upon govt procurement contracts.

paddythere

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

When one tires of democracy presumably one seeks dictatorships.

I'm not tired of democracy though. It was just my observation on the shift in politics currently taking place.

Chockablock Theodore

completedit wrote: »

Millions maybe billions lifted out of poverty. Most peaceful era in our history and quality of life that would have been unthinkable 100 years ago
I don't think we are truly able to grasp how bleak existence was for the majority of our ancestors.

Closethread

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddythere wrote: »

I don't disagree. I tend to call it state capitalism personally.

Capitalism is probably the worst thing to happen to honest democracy. What did they say about the US once? It was the best democracy money could buy...

PhilOssophy wrote: »

So what the OP is looking for is Hitler or one of those mad fellahs?

So... there's democracy and totalitrian dictatorships? And thats it...?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

spook_cook wrote: »

Actually yes, I am scared at the outcome of your proposal.

Funneling money and time to extremist groups, generally isn't a good idea. Whilst "levelling down" moderate parties. Genius.

Whether it's morons in 2008 calling for the nationalisation of Dell, leaving the EU in the after time period, the "X hundreds of billions of oil" off the coast crowd in the early 2010s, parties which have literally supported murder in the past decade on this island, "turf out the immirgants", there's always a loudmouth ready-fix solution available in the wings.

Removing the ability of sane parties to campaign to their level, giving the extremists the ability to remove mainstream candidates from other parties, removing the ability of me as a citizen to contribute to whom I wanna win... Yes, this is all a terrible, terrible outcome. Unless you're one of said loons in the previous paragraph?

So you're actually scared of a democratically elected extremeist organsation? Sounds like a bit of a contradtion to me, to he honest.

The idea is more in the way of banning business donations to parties and fund-raisers which give the main parties an unfair advantage. You can easily set the bar at a logical entry-level to stop the far left/rigth parties getting in.

mariaalice

A lot of it might be to do with the fact that people are better educated and are challenged more its a lot harder for the average person to stay in their bubble blaming the rich, the elite, the poor, the welfare state because now their views will be challenged with evidence so the comfort of blaming others as a coping mechanism is harder to maintain.

Also, it was easier before mass education and ideas about an opportunity for everyone because there was little or no reflection on their position in life, there were no other choices if you had a 6-acre farm and 10 children or were working in a coal mine or were an aristocrat that was considered the natural order of things.

440Hertz

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It is state capitalism. Its built upon govt procurement contracts.

That’s a rather blind over simplification of it. A huge amount of it couldn’t be described as state capitalism - there’s an element of spending for altruistic and socially cohesive purposes.

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

Because I'm not.

I have no doubt now that you do believe that.

paddythere

mariaalice wrote: »

A lot of it might be to do with the fact that people are better educated and are challenged more its a lot harder for the average person to stay in their bubble blaming the rich, the elite, the poor, the welfare state because now their views will be challenged with evidence so the comfort of blaming others as a coping mechanism is harder to maintain.

Also, it was easier before mass education and ideas about an opportunity for everyone because there was little or no reflection on their position in life, there were no other choices if you had a 6-acre farm and 10 children or were working in a coal mine or were an aristocrat that was considered the natural order of things.

So people are sick of democracy because they are better educated?

McHardcore

paddythere wrote: »

I think the problem is the fact that poverty is growing despite all of the wealth in the world.

Its not though, world poverty is decreasing.

mariaalice

paddythere wrote: »

So people are sick of democracy because they are better educated?

The question it more because of better education.

paddythere

mariaalice wrote: »

The question it more because of better education.

I don't agree that better education leads to the questioning of the desirability of democracy. I do think that WORSE education leads to that though.

paddythere

McHardcore wrote: »

Its not though, world poverty is decreasing.

Not everybody agrees with that data as i'm sure your probably aware.

For example: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/29/bill-gates-davos-global-poverty-infographic-neoliberal

From what I can observe personally, living standards are being slowly driven down, working conditions and working rights are in trouble, and more and more wealth is ending up in the hands of a few powerful people. Over decades, this can have a devastating effect on a previously prosperous nation (as I beleive we are starting to see)

440Hertz

mariaalice wrote: »

A lot of it might be to do with the fact that people are better educated and are challenged more its a lot harder for the average person to stay in their bubble blaming the rich, the elite, the poor, the welfare state because now their views will be challenged with evidence so the comfort of blaming others as a coping mechanism is harder to maintain.

Also, it was easier before mass education and ideas about an opportunity for everyone because there was little or no reflection on their position in life, there were no other choices if you had a 6-acre farm and 10 children or were working in a coal mine or were an aristocrat that was considered the natural order of things.

Yup! That’s why the then uneducated French were extremely passive about their position as serfs and being downtrodden by the aristocracy and never did anything remotely revolutionary to establish a Republic.

The Irish also just knew our place and never had any uprising.

It was only in the late 20th century when we all had degrees that we got into our time machines and went back to the 1700s and 1800s to rise up against oppressors.

... ?!?
(Read in sarcastic tone)

mariaalice

paddythere wrote: »

I don't agree that better education leads to the questioning of the desirability of democracy. I do think that WORSE education leads to that though.

Well yes, but education gives people the tools to question things before mass education it was harder to question the system.

mariaalice

440Hertz wrote: »

Yup! That’s why the then uneducated French were extremely passive about their position as serfs and being downtrodden by the aristocracy and never did anything remotely revolutionary to establish a Republic.

The Irish also just knew our place and never had any uprising.

It was only in the late 20th century when we all had degrees that we got into our time machines and went back to the 1700s and 1800s to rise up against oppressors.

... ?!?
(Read in sarcastic tone)

I did not say the recent past, there had to be a reason the right of man was written in 1791 and not 1691 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_Man

paddythere

mariaalice wrote: »

Well yes, but education gives people the tools to question things before mass education it was harder to question the system.

I'm not so sure. I think the modern education system actually helps to prevent people from questioning the system.

Tabnabs

440Hertz wrote: »

That’s a rather blind over simplification of it. A huge amount of it couldn’t be described as state capitalism - there’s an element of spending for altruistic and socially cohesive purposes.

Known as welfare capitalism. Another aspect of the terrible beast that some people want to destroy whilst having no proven workable alternative that is a marked improvement.

Property rights, voluntary exchange and wage labour, the basic tenants of capitalism that make it the best choice for the average citizen and the worst for the oligarchs, the megalomaniacs and the corrupt.