ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

Geuze

History Queen wrote: »

It is just for younger members though? (Or those who joined the profession since 2011, not all young necessarily)

All new entrants.

mayo londoner

History Queen wrote: »

It is just for younger members though? (Or those who joined the profession since 2011, not all young necessarily)

You were the one who mentioned 'younger members'. To confirm, I was a new entrant working in the University.

Dav010

History Queen wrote: »

Teachers won't close hospitals either. You didn't answer my question about contact tracing.

Also I'm looking for nothing. I'm not in ASTI

Yes, but teachers striking will effect every other industry as parents will be forced to take time off, including Doctors, nurses, nursing home staff etc

I can only assume that due to the proximity of students/teachers and the numbers involved, close contact protocols would inevitably mean that schools would close. Every measure the Government has introduced has had the aim of keeping our kids in education.

My posts are not directed at you personally, but those who voted for strike action and the colleagues who support them.

History Queen

mayo londoner wrote: »

You were the one who mentioned 'younger members'. To confirm, I was a new entrant working in the University.

Yes. I should have used the term new entrants. My point was that it is pay equalisation (or a pay rise if you prefer) just for that cohort. Not a payrise across the board which some seem to think. Again though I do think it was a mistake to ballot for this along with covid foncerns. Covid concerns now being misunderstood/ignored as people are focusing on pay issue instead.

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

Yes, but teachers striking will effect every other industry as parents will be forced to take time off, including Doctors, nurses, nursing home staff etc

I can only assume that due to the proximity of students/teachers and the numbers involved, close contact protocols would inevitably mean that schools would close. Every measure the Government has introduced has had the aim of keeping our kids in education.

My posts are not directed at you personally, but those who voted for strike action and the colleagues who support them.

Oh ya I totally understand you aren't being personal. So do you acknowledge then that schools follow different protocols, against WHO advice, but that this is ok as schools will stay open. Will this not, in the long term lead to the virus spreading more? Genuinely this is my viewpoint, if contact tracing isn't effective then the virus is being let spread more, albeit quite possibly primarily asymptomaticly (assuming it is correct that children often are asymptomatic).

Dav010

History Queen wrote: »

Oh ya I totally understand you aren't being personal. So do you acknowledge then that schools follow different protocols, against WHO advice, but that this is ok as schools will stay open. Will this not, in the long term lead to the virus spreading more? Genuinely this is my viewpoint, if contact tracing isn't effective then the virus is being let spread more, albeit quite possibly primarily asymptomaticly (assuming it is correct that children often are asymptomatic).

Unfortunately if we want to keep our schools open, economy functioning and people in employment, not all WHO advice can be adhered to. There has to be some balance.

History Queen

Dav010 wrote: »

Unfortunately if we want to keep our schools open, economy functioning and people in employment, not all WHO advice can be adhered to. There has to be some balance.

Agreed. But is this the standard we want to set? Teacher and student health in favour of the economy? I think individual class or school closures as necessitated by testing is better than keeping all schools open regardless of concerns. I understand I am in the minority goinh by how this thread is going. I do think closed schools/classes could be helped by online learning (not ideal but better than no contact closure).

Dav010

History Queen wrote: »

Agreed. But is this the standard we want to set? Teacher and student health in favour of the economy? I think individual class or school closures as necessitated by testing is better than keeping all schools open regardless of concerns. I understand I am in the minority goinh by how this thread is going. I do think closed schools/classes could be helped by online learning (not ideal but better than no contact closure).

This is the standard other sectors are having to accept. All workers are having to accept risk. If we don’t, there will be no work, no jobs, no income etc. The belief that teachers are a special case does not sit well with people who have lost jobs, income or who are at work right now. And again, I go back to the issue of the pay rise, closing schools because of this is beyond comprehension in the current climate.

blanch152

History Queen wrote: »

Oh ya I totally understand you aren't being personal. So do you acknowledge then that schools follow different protocols, against WHO advice, but that this is ok as schools will stay open. Will this not, in the long term lead to the virus spreading more? Genuinely this is my viewpoint, if contact tracing isn't effective then the virus is being let spread more, albeit quite possibly primarily asymptomaticly (assuming it is correct that children often are asymptomatic).

WHO advised lockdowns, then they didn't advise lockdowns etc.

The one piece of advice that WHO do cling to is that countries should do what is appropriate to their current circumstances.

Keeping our schools open to educate our children has to be the highest priority after ensuring our hopsitals can continue to function. The only time we should consider closing schools is if our ICU units are being overwhelmed.

titan18

Things they voted to strike for

1. Redefinition of a close contact as any person who spends more than 15 minutes in a classroom with a positive covid case
2. Testing programme for schools
3. Test turnaround time of 24 hours
4. Equal pay for post 2010 teachers
5. Provision for teachers in high risk categories to teach at home or have reasonable accommodations made in school
6. Free provision of laptops for teachers in schools

I think 1,2 and 5 are things they should get imo and it's farcical that those aren't there atm
3 would be nice but likely not feasible
4 is problematic as it was the teachers back then who fecked the newer entrants up as they didn't want a paycut.
6 would cost far too much

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

WHO advised lockdowns, then they didn't advise lockdowns etc.

The one piece of advice that WHO do cling to is that countries should do what is appropriate to their current circumstances.

Keeping our schools open to educate our children has to be the highest priority after ensuring our hopsitals can continue to function. The only time we should consider closing schools is if our ICU units are being overwhelmed.

Not sure I was clear. I absolutely don't agree with blanket closures. I just thought that so we can contact trace properly in scools we.might have to accept individual closures where replacement teachers can't be found if some are isolating/being tested. God no, definitely not looking for full closures!

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

Things they voted to strike for

1. Redefinition of a close contact as any person who spends more than 15 minutes in a classroom with a positive covid case
2. Testing programme for schools
3. Test turnaround time of 24 hours
4. Equal pay for post 2010 teachers
5. Provision for teachers in high risk categories to teach at home or have reasonable accommodations made in school
6. Free provision of laptops for teachers in schools

I think 1,2 and 5 are things they should get imo and it's farcical that those aren't there atm
3 would be nice but likely not feasible
4 is problematic as it was the teachers back then who fecked the newer entrants up as they didn't want a paycut.
6 would cost far too much

On point 6 I'm actually shocked that in 2020 teachers are not provided with basic IT equipment to do their job. I assume they use their own as I can't imagine they could do without a computer these days

That leaves things open to other serious problems too in terms of security, control of data etc.

Not sure why I'm surprised but I am.

Lillyfae

Deleted User wrote: »

On point 6 I'm actually shocked that in 2020 teachers are not provided with basic IT equipment to do their job. I assume they use their own as I can't imagine they could do without a computer these days

That leaves things open to other serious problems too in terms of security, control of data etc.

Not sure why I'm surprised but I am.

To be honest I don't know why every teacher in the country employed by the DoE doesn't have their own laptop supplied by the DoE.

History Queen

Lillyfae wrote: »

To be honest I don't know why every teacher in the country employed by the DoE doesn't have their own laptop supplied by the DoE.

I'm assuming cost.

Lillyfae

History Queen wrote: »

I'm assuming cost.

I don't think this is a good enough excuse. I'd support teachers striking on the point of upgraded facilities and bigger supply budgets no problem.

thomasdylan

History Queen wrote: »

Doctors are threatening to strike
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/public-health-doctors-threaten-strike-action-over-pay-row-1.4358409

I don't think this is a fair comparison at all. Public health doctors are a subspeciality of doctors who have completed specialist training and aren't paid as consultants (which is unique to Ireland).

A report by the Department of Health a few years ago recommended that Public Health doctors are consultants and should be treated as such. It's been put on the back burner despite the Dept of Health recommending it and despite it being agreed to by government.

I don't think doctor's have ever closed hospitals. I don't think they ever will. There has been one strike in 20 years by NCHDs to reduce max rostered shifts DOWN to a max of 24 hours. It was a half day strike where all emergencies were still covered.

I don't think there are two more opposite unions in the public sector than the ASTI and the IMO in terms of flexibility and willingness to walk out on the job.

History Queen

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think this is a fair comparison at all. Public health doctors are a subspeciality of doctors who have completed specialist training and aren't paid as consultants (which is unique to Ireland).

A report by the Department of Health a few years ago recommended that Public Health doctors are consultants and should be treated as such. It's been put on the back burner despite the Dept of Health recommending it and despite it being agreed to by government.

I don't think doctor's have ever closed hospitals. I don't think they ever will. There has been one strike in 20 years by NCHDs to reduce max rostered shifts DOWN to a max of 24 hours. It was a half day strike where all emergencies were still covered.

I don't think there are two more opposite unions in the public sector than the ASTI and the IMO in terms of flexibility and willingness to walk out on the job.

My comment was in response to a poster saying other sectors weren't threatening to strike.

Bass Reeves

History Queen wrote: »

Yes. I should have used the term new entrants. My point was that it is pay equalisation (or a pay rise if you prefer) just for that cohort. Not a payrise across the board which some seem to think. Again though I do think it was a mistake to ballot for this along with covid foncerns. Covid concerns now being misunderstood/ignored as people are focusing on pay issue instead.

The problem being that other teacher unions accept that teacher pay during the noughties hot put of line with general pay across the labour force. The ASTI has being out of line all through the last economic slowdown. It has used students and the educational system as hostages throughout the last 15+years. It has always tried to implement the maximum damage to society with minimal effect to its member working week. It tried to withdraw supervision to close a schools . This is just another attempt to cripple the educational system

It is not in teachers remit to decide the priority of testing and tracing systems. Government, the HSE and NPHET have set the safety criteria for schools reopening.

Just like nurses and doctors from March to June had to work in conditions that were not as we would have wished it up to teachers get on with it now. The HSE and NPHET has done an analysis and has decided that these are adequate measure at the moment. These are the professionals, it not in a teacher union and teachers to second guess professionals in health and health risks. There job is to teach. The HSE and NPHET set what they think is adequate H&S criteria with regard to risk and to resources available

History Queen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem being that other teacher unions accept that teacher pay during the noughties hot put of line with general pay across the labour force. The ASTI has being out of line all through the last economic slowdown. It has used students and the educational system as hostages throughout the last 15+years. It has always tried to implement the maximum damage to society with minimal effect to its member working week. It tried to withdraw supervision to close a schools . This is just another attempt to cripple the educational system

It is not in teachers remit to decide the priority of testing and tracing systems. Government, the HSE and NPHET have set the safety criteria for schools reopening.

Just like nurses and doctors from March to June had to work in conditions that were not as we would have wished it up to teachers get on with it now. The HSE and NPHET has done an analysis and has decided that these are adequate measure at the moment. These are the professionals, it not in a teacher union and teachers to second guess professionals in health and health risks. There job is to teach. The HSE and NPHET set what they think is adequate H&S criteria with regard to risk and to resources available

Other teachers unions don't accept that teachers pay during noughties was out of line? Not sure where you got that idea? Anyway I'm dragging the thread off topic by attempting to address misunderstanding of these issues so I'll bow out. Apologies.

PowerToWait

The amount of dolts on the radio today comparing teachers to firemen, police, nurses, doctors. It's beyond stupid.

Like, when you ring 999 and are asked which emergency service you require, do they seriously think they'll add 'education' to this very short list now?


Fire
Ambulance
Police
Education

Some people are pathetic.

Bass Reeves

History Queen wrote: »

Other teachers unions don't accept that teachers pay during noughties was out of line? Not sure where you got that idea? Anyway I'm dragging the thread off topic by attempting to address misunderstanding of these issues so I'll bow out. Apologies.

Yes they do while they may still have a policy of trying to restore it they understand that the government will not concede on it. So they are not willing to strike over an unachievable aim.

History Queen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes they do while they may still have a policy of trying to restore it they understand that the government will not concede on it. So they are not willing to strike over an unachievable aim.

You've dragged me back in, but I have to ask where you are getting this idea from? It is false.

dresden8

Augeo wrote: »

They agreed to it iirc.

You don't "agree" to hand your wallet to a mugger.

Dav010

dresden8 wrote: »

You don't "agree" to hand your wallet to a mugger.

A hint of hyperbole there? Are you saying teachers were mugged? By whom?

Bananaleaf

Dav010 wrote: »

Bananaleaf, at present PS have it better than almost everyone else, job security, pay security, sick pay, holidays etc. How many permanent teachers have had their pay reduced, hours reduced, been laid off since March? There seems to be this impenetrable wall in the mind of teachers that prevents them from seeing this. But employment entitlements is not my issue with you, and I don’t mean you personally, is that despite all of these entitlements, you want to discommode others, if you don’t get a pay rise.

Do you think everyone going in to work this morning is being tested?

I've tried to reply to this post 3 times already and it keeps going missing.

It is tricky for me to argue with you on this because at the heart of it, we are on the same page.

I don't agree with strike action. It would be my view that ASTI are not interested in pay restoration because ... I cannot be 100% sure about this but if I understood correctly what was once said to us at a TUI pensions meeting (good chance I didn't, they were talking fast and I remember being too nervous to ask for clarification at the time) ... restoring the pay of new entrants would affect pension benefits, not just of those still working but of retired teachers already in receipt of their pensions too.

A cynic would suggest that the unions only seem to peddle the 'equal pay' issue at times when it seems safe to do so, ie: at times when there isn't a hope in hell of getting it.

I'm not sure that it is right to say that all public servants have had it easier than others during the pandemic, this isn't true. Personally, I have. I've still got my job, I was on a full-hours contract before the pandemic so got my full pay since March, yet had very few of my usual outgoings such as gym, petrol, dog minding fees. I've no children and a great internet connection so I found teaching from home quite manageable for the most part.

I've two brothers who are both in the private sector. One has received a pay cut and some of his colleagues have lost their jobs. The other one though, has been promoted, gets takeaway vouchers every Friday, got 1100eur to buy work from home furniture and will, as he always has, get his Christmas bonus in 2 months time. He is also saving money and time on not having to do his commute and his company are thinking of making a permanent move to this way of doing things. There are some in the private sector doing okay out of this pandemic too.

Edited because after reading this, I admit it is quite off topic. The point I was trying to make was that just because they were paid from March to May, doesn't mean that teachers lose the right to speak up if they are being treated unfairly. How well a sector did or didn't do out of the pandemic is not the basis for how many rights they are entitled to ....

I don't agree with the strike because I don't think it's warranted. But there are some who don't believe the public sector should ever go on strike because they think they own us

Bass Reeves

Read Bannaleaf post just above And he is a teacher and agreed with me

Bananaleaf

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Read Bannaleaf post just above And he is a teacher and agreed with me

I did, but it is just my opinion and I could be wrong to be fair.

blanch152

Lillyfae wrote: »

To be honest I don't know why every teacher in the country employed by the DoE doesn't have their own laptop supplied by the DoE.

Many teachers don't or won't use a laptop to teach. I know it is 2020, but in many classrooms, it is still the 1980s.

Smacruairi

blanch152 wrote: »

Many teachers don't or won't use a laptop to teach. I know it is 2020, but in many classrooms, it is still the 1980s.

What expert analysis of this do you have? Or is this just a hunch as per usual. Go find me a few school evaluations online stating that there is inexcusable use of It in the classroom. Shouldn't be hard if your opinion is accurate?

Bananaleaf

blanch152 wrote: »

Many teachers don't or won't use a laptop to teach. I know it is 2020, but in many classrooms, it is still the 1980s.

Hmmm there are certainly some, but is your point that nobody should get one just because of those who wouldnt use them?